RCD

[Joinaman]

Is it possible to change this main breaker to an RCD ?

got the wrong board when this house was rewired and really want a RCD for safety

 

[Forkinhades]

Possibly, you can also put a Safety-cut upstream of it as well.
Take your picture to the electrical shop you use.

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[Joinaman]

That was quick reply

thanks

but what is safety cut off upstream ?

i assume you mean a separate RCD ?

fitted to the incoming tails ?

[Forkinhades]

Indeed sir
Safety-cut is the Brand here, and yes installed on the incoming tails before your fuseboard. As said there is a very good chance that you can just swap out the main switch.

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[Crossy]

Can you post a photo of the board with the lid off please? (take care)

 

You may (or may not) be able to replace the incomer with an RCBO (not an RCD you need over-current protection), or replace individual breakers with RCBOs. 

 

Not all circuits need earth leakage protection and some positively should avoid it (think freezer).

 

[Joinaman]

Thanks Forkinhades/Crossy

pictures of board and main breaker

[bankruatsteve]

Do I see 5-6 ring circuits?

[Crossy]

Rings aside, that's a plug-in board.

 

Schneider / Square-D front end RCBOs should fit without issue but they are not cheap 

 

I'll see if I can find the Schneider catalog when I get home.

[Joinaman]

well there is only single cables at the socket outlets

but tried tracing them out before but its a maze i the roof space, with wires joined together and going off in different directions

they are not even consistent on what and where they feed and which fuse the use

the bedrooms have two or three sockets in them, but not from the same breaker, same as the lounge and kitchen areas

only the air cons seem to be single use brerakers

this was wired by a so called qualified electrician, wish i had waited and done it myself, with the good advise from people on here

[tryasimight]

On 12/19/2017 at 12:30 PM, Crossy said:

Can you post a photo of the board with the lid off please? (take care)

 

You may (or may not) be able to replace the incomer with an RCBO (not an RCD you need over-current protection), or replace individual breakers with RCBOs. 

 

Not all circuits need earth leakage protection and some positively should avoid it (think freezer).

 

I realise I'm a latecomer to this thread, and I know we are talking about Thailand, but just pointing out that the latest Australian regulations now mandates RCD  protection on all power and light circuits for new installs - obviously RCBO's are used in most cases.

[Crossy]

13 minutes ago, tryasimight said:

I realise I'm a latecomer to this thread, and I know we are talking about Thailand, but just pointing out that the latest Australian regulations now mandates RCD  protection on all power and light circuits for new installs - obviously RCBO's are used in most cases.

Yeah, pretty much the same in the UK. We have the rider that circuits with mechanical protection (metal conduit or armoured cable) or are buried more than 50mm deep in walls don't need RCDs.

 

IIRC power outlets over 20A capacity also don't need RCDs, 32A Commando plug on the freezer perhaps.

 

[tryasimight]

2 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Yeah, pretty much the same in the UK. We have the rider that circuits with mechanical protection (metal conduit or armoured cable) or are buried more than 50mm deep in walls don't need RCDs.

 

IIRC power outlets over 20A capacity also don't need RCDs, 32A Commando plug on the freezer perhaps.

 

I haven't looked at the finer detail ( I try and avoid domestic work these days, crawling around in roofs holds not attraction any more! ) - got the info from an email sent out by the Standards mob. I suspect over 20A probably doesn't need the RCD protection but most domestic installs in Oz would be 16A power circuits.Must be a serious freezer to have a 32A circuit feeding it.

When I renovated my place 20 odd years ago I put RCBO's on everything. The only hassle I had was with the new stove. It took a little while to stop tripping the breaker until it drove the moisture out of the elements but has been ok ever since. 

[Wirejerker]

In oz wiring rules AS3000 NEW domestic and residential installs ALL circuits to be protected by RCD up to and including 32A.



Cheers

[Crossy]

14 minutes ago, Wirejerker said:

In oz wiring rules AS3000 NEW domestic and residential installs ALL circuits to be protected by RCD up to and including 32A.

Thanks WJ, so no relaxation for cables buried deep, surface mounted or armoured?

 

New regs in Thailand require a front-end RCBO/RCD (one assumes individual RCBOs would be acceptable). But as we all know rules are just rules here, I'm still seeing new installs with 2-pin outlets and no RCD.

 

All our circuits are on RCDs except the aircon and one circuit for the freezer and fridge. Additional 10mA RCBO for the pool.

 

[Litlos]

It looks to me like the neutral bar alongside the main breaker is unused, with all the neutrals and earths being tied to the earth bar.  That mix could get interesting with Thailand's electrics.

 

It looks like the GSafe does an RCBO equipped breaker box, but appears different from the non RCBO type box.

https://globalhouse.co.th/product/detail/8859042800121

 

Cheers

[blookhead57]

because you have earths and neutrals all together fitting a RCD can give you problems as in if a metal box is or any spurious metal parts connected to your electrical system (earthed) comes in contact with earth (or ground if your American) then this will cause the RCD to trip (as it is designed to). Also as it stands if the neutral at your consumer unit (fuse box) becomes disconnected at the pole for instance then all the earthing system in your house will come live ie any metal parts connected to the earthing system. You need to remove all the neutrals an put them in the left hand terminal. Then remove the link from the earth terminals to the neutral on the main switch and re feed to the neutral terminals on the left. Also the earth terminals with all the earths connection with what should be left, you should now run a separate earth to an earth steak outside the building with a 6.0mm earth wire. The neutrals and earths in your house must be separate systems. so like I say if the natural become disconnected for what ever reason then the earthing is still in place via the earth steak to give you earth potential OK? 

[Joinaman]

Thanks blockhead

 thats why I asked on another post about the wiring

common sense says neutrals on one block and earths on the other

will change them over as per your instructions  and then find a new RCD to replace the one that's there

if this is how a thai el ctrician does it, I'm glad I didn't get a rice farmer !

[Crossy]

One point @Joinaman do not change the routing of the incoming neutral via the ground bar this (odd as it seems) this is the correct implementation of MEN (Multiple Earthed Neutral) in Thailand.

 

[blookhead57]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

One point @Joinaman do not change the routing of the incoming neutral via the ground bar this (odd as it seems) this is the correct implementation of MEN (Multiple Earthed Neutral) in Thailand.

 

try me

[maxpower]

20 hours ago, blookhead57 said:

The neutrals and earths in your house must be separate systems. so like I say if the natural become disconnected for what ever reason then the earthing is still in place via the earth steak to give you earth potential OK? 

That's a bit confusing, what about all this TN-C and TN-C-S stuff you read about on the intaweb. Must be really dangerous.

[Forkinhades]

All these connections whatever you would like to call it are done on the SUPPLY side. Your RCD will monitor the earthing on the LOAD side.

Keeping things simple here. For a more detailed info look at the pinned threads.

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[Crossy]

1 hour ago, blookhead57 said:

try me

What you do with your system is entirely up to you.

 

But, you won't pass an MEA/PEA inspection if you wire it any other way.

 

If you are TT'ing your connection please ensure you have RCD protection, for your health's sake.

[blookhead57]

4 hours ago, blookhead57 said:

try me

 

4 hours ago, blookhead57 said:

try me

there must be no connection between the earth bus bar and neutrals. If you do this you are introducing a neutral earth fault and the RCD will see this as a fault and you wont be able to turn the RCD on

[Forkinhades]

You have read the sticky right?

Look at Picture 4

[blookhead57]

6 hours ago, Joinaman said:

Thanks blockhead

 thats why I asked on another post about the wiring

common sense says neutrals on one block and earths on the other

will change them over as per your instructions  and then find a new RCD to replace the one that's there

if this is how a thai el ctrician does it, I'm glad I didn't get a rice farmer !

do not connect neutral with earth as Crossy says because you wont be able to turn the trip on. He is getting confused with incoming supply where the Neutrals are connected to earth where earth and neutrals become common. Only supply authorities can do this (they don't use RCDs) in you installation neutrals and earths must be separate.

[Forkinhades]

But in Thailand the onus is on YOU to do this. As the PEA will not do it.

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[Crossy]

9 hours ago, blookhead57 said:

do not connect neutral with earth as Crossy says because you wont be able to turn the trip on. He is getting confused with incoming supply where the Neutrals are connected to earth where earth and neutrals become common. Only supply authorities can do this (they don't use RCDs) in you installation neutrals and earths must be separate.

Have you actually looked at the drawings referenced by Forkinhades and looked at the photos supplied by or OP?

 

They clearly and correctly show the incoming neutral going first to the ground bar and thence to the main breaker. The N-E connection is upstream of the breaker. As noted earlier, this is how MEN (very similar in concept to PME) is implemented in Thailand.

 

Replacing the main breaker with an RCBO is the way to go. Schneider / Square-D plug-in units should fit right in and work once the neutrals are on the correct bar.

 

It is important to remember not everywhere does it like the UK, applying UK rules as close as France will net you an illegal installation (the French regs. don't permit single-pole breakers at all).

 

[Forkinhades]

Nonsensical post removed.

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[blookhead57]

The main switch that is there at the moment looks like a circuit breaker same as the others but double pole. You need to get a 63Amp or bigger 30 Ma RCD (residual currant device) your consumer unit looks like a copy of square D where the breakers and main switch plug in. Or you can get a free standing RCD with enclosure and fit externally as suggested before. If you get an integral RCB then by unplugging the circuit breaker and replacing with the RCD should connect the neutral bus bar . Just check im not 100% sure. Regarding the Earth connection if you have a PME (or Thai equivalent ) Then connect the earth bus bar to the incoming neutral not outgoing. If its not Pme then you need to fit an earth steak.  

[blookhead57]

1 minute ago, blookhead57 said:

The main switch that is there at the moment looks like a circuit breaker same as the others but double pole. You need to get a 63Amp or bigger 30 Ma RCD (residual currant device) your consumer unit looks like a copy of square D where the breakers and main switch plug in. Or you can get a free standing RCD with enclosure and fit externally as suggested before. If you get an integral RCB then by unplugging the circuit breaker and replacing with the RCD should connect the neutral bus bar . Just check im not 100% sure. Regarding the Earth connection if you have a PME (or Thai equivalent ) Then connect the earth bus bar to the incoming neutral not outgoing. If its not Pme then you need to fit an earth steak.  

You can get a 63Amp 100Ma RCD witch is less sensitive but here its stipulates 30Ma must disconnect in 0.4 of a second. Here the installation is split over 2 x 30Ma RCDs so if one goes you still have the other half to plug into so you don't loose all your supply.