True and Proper Buddhist teaching

[jamesc2000]

On 2/6/2020 at 1:52 PM, rockyysdt said:

Hi Vincent.

 

The only caveat to this criterion is that one must devote ones entire life (or perhaps lives) towards conscientious practice before one can arrive at "knowing"!

 

In other words, considerable faith is needed.

 

Rocky

 

Maybe its like a good book you just cannot put down.

 

Do you need faith to believe you will reach the end?

 

Maybe it like people don't want to stop or cannot stop.

 

????

 

If you have received a precious gift will you want to throw it away? 

[VincentRJ]

11 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

Hi Vincent.

 

When I look at Buddhism, I don't just see the journey, but I see the ultimate goal, Awakening.

 

How can one "know for themselves" Awakening?

 

Why would one embark on a very demanding lifestyle and practice if there is no "know for themselves"?

 

Further, isn't thoughtful reasoning and introspection coloured to varying degrees, due to each individuals conditioning?

Wouldn't such reasoning and introspection be tainted by each individuals degree of greed, hate, and delusion?

 

Things, such as reasoning before acting, to avoid greed, hate, and delusion, can also be achieved through ethical living.

 

Why the Buddhist path unless there is more?

 

 

Doesn't that bring us back to the need for quite a lot of faith, for without it how can one possibly embark on immense sustained effort (specific practice), in order to work towards attaining a level of "knowing for oneself"?

 

 

Hi Rocky,

Surely any degree of awakening is a state of mind that has to be experienced by the individual in order to be understood, whether it's one of the many partial awakenings that would probably occur along the path, or the final, full awakening, known as Nirvana.

 

I'm a bit skeptical of concepts such as 'Reincarnation'. I need some degree of reliable evidence before I can have 'faith' in something. I tend to think that the ancient Vedic concept of reincarnation, and the Buddhist modification of that concept, are similar to the ancient Greek and Indian proposals that there is a limit to the smallest size of a piece of  matter, and that smallest size, which can't be broken further, is called the 'atom'. This was a rational and logical idea.

 

It took many hundreds of years before that hypothesis could be confirmed. However, some time later the atom was split, proving that the atom is not the smallest particle.

 

In the absence of any knowledge of genetics, and the great variety in the human genome, and the more recent concept of epigenetic inheritance, a theory of Reincarnation was perhaps the best explanation in those ancient times for the observation of strange medical conditions and behavioural traits that some children and adults showed, that were quite different from either of their parents.

 

The problem I have with religious faith in general, is the non-questioning attitude that such faith seems to require.

 

I believe in the benefits of meditation because I've experienced them for myself. I accept many of the teachings attributed to the Buddha because they make sense, and I cannot fault them

[rockyysdt]

13 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

Hi Rocky,

Surely any degree of awakening is a state of mind that has to be experienced by the individual in order to be understood, whether it's one of the many partial awakenings that would probably occur along the path, or the final, full awakening, known as Nirvana.

 

I'm a bit skeptical of concepts such as 'Reincarnation'. I need some degree of reliable evidence before I can have 'faith' in something. I tend to think that the ancient Vedic concept of reincarnation, and the Buddhist modification of that concept, are similar to the ancient Greek and Indian proposals that there is a limit to the smallest size of a piece of  matter, and that smallest size, which can't be broken further, is called the 'atom'. This was a rational and logical idea.

 

It took many hundreds of years before that hypothesis could be confirmed. However, some time later the atom was split, proving that the atom is not the smallest particle.

 

In the absence of any knowledge of genetics, and the great variety in the human genome, and the more recent concept of epigenetic inheritance, a theory of Reincarnation was perhaps the best explanation in those ancient times for the observation of strange medical conditions and behavioural traits that some children and adults showed, that were quite different from either of their parents.

 

The problem I have with religious faith in general, is the non-questioning attitude that such faith seems to require.

 

I believe in the benefits of meditation because I've experienced them for myself. I accept many of the teachings attributed to the Buddha because they make sense, and I cannot fault them

Thanks Vincent.

 

In his quest for Awakening, the Buddha explored a number of practices which failed to bear fruit.

 

Yoga, for example can easily yield a healthy and mindful life and is relatively easy to adopt.

But can it yield Awakening?

 

The other practices the Buddha tried with no luck.

Weren't these practices capable of providing deep levels of relaxation and reduced stress, all capable of enhancing ones life?

 

None of these, however yielded Awakening.

 

Only practice of the Buddhas teaching (or teachings capable of yielding the same state) results in Awakening.

 

My understanding is that the Monkhood was devised, as the Buddha new that without full time practice it would be very difficult to realise Awakening.

 

He needed to offer something to the vast masses, most burdened by hard toil and sweat in order to eke out a living.

He gave them the  the “Four Immeasurables”. Anyone could practice a path to Awakening by cultivating metta (loving kindness), karuna (compassion), mudita (sympathetic joy or empathy), and upekkha (equanimity).

However I suspect this path might span many re births.

 

So, doesn't it still come back to faith?

The faith needed to invest in the lifelong time and effort in order to Awaken.

The faith to devote ones life to dedicated practice to achieve Awakening.

 

Anything short of Awakening can be achieved through Yoga and other practices.

 

So it seems to come back to requiring large measures of faith in order to expend dedication and practice over a lifetime to "know for oneself".

 

It's like trying something costing $50,000,000 before you buy.

But you must hand over a non refundable $50,000,000 first.

 

You can only "know for oneself" Awakening, after having expended your entire life practicing to achieve it?

 

Also, what are partial awakenings?

 

NB:  There's a man I met through my employment.

       He practices 30 minutes of meditation each day, eats a healthy diet, walks daily, practices regular stretching & weight training, and avoids alcohol.

       He also cares for his fellow man and practices the four immeasurables with his neighbours.

       I suggested he should increase his meditation by practice for longer periods, which would yield incites.

       He would not entertain this even though he has the luxury of time on his hands.

       He will never Awaken in this life.

           This is where belief and faith come in, for without them,  there is no "know for oneself" from which to leverage.

       

      

Edited February 11, 2020 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

On 2/11/2020 at 1:50 PM, rockyysdt said:

Thanks Vincent.

 

In his quest for Awakening, the Buddha explored a number of practices which failed to bear fruit.

 

Yoga, for example can easily yield a healthy and mindful life and is relatively easy to adopt.

But can it yield Awakening?

 

The other practices the Buddha tried with no luck.

Weren't these practices capable of providing deep levels of relaxation and reduced stress, all capable of enhancing ones life?

 

None of these, however yielded Awakening.

 

Only practice of the Buddhas teaching (or teachings capable of yielding the same state) results in Awakening.

 

My understanding is that the Monkhood was devised, as the Buddha new that without full time practice it would be very difficult to realise Awakening.

 

He needed to offer something to the vast masses, most burdened by hard toil and sweat in order to eke out a living.

He gave them the  the “Four Immeasurables”. Anyone could practice a path to Awakening by cultivating metta (loving kindness), karuna (compassion), mudita (sympathetic joy or empathy), and upekkha (equanimity).

However I suspect this path might span many re births.

 

So, doesn't it still come back to faith?

The faith needed to invest in the lifelong time and effort in order to Awaken.

The faith to devote ones life to dedicated practice to achieve Awakening.

 

Anything short of Awakening can be achieved through Yoga and other practices.

 

So it seems to come back to requiring large measures of faith in order to expend dedication and practice over a lifetime to "know for oneself".

 

It's like trying something costing $50,000,000 before you buy.

But you must hand over a non refundable $50,000,000 first.

 

You can only "know for oneself" Awakening, after having expended your entire life practicing to achieve it?

 

Also, what are partial awakenings?

 

NB:  There's a man I met through my employment.

       He practices 30 minutes of meditation each day, eats a healthy diet, walks daily, practices regular stretching & weight training, and avoids alcohol.

       He also cares for his fellow man and practices the four immeasurables with his neighbours.

       I suggested he should increase his meditation by practice for longer periods, which would yield incites.

       He would not entertain this even though he has the luxury of time on his hands.

       He will never Awaken in this life.

           This is where belief and faith come in, for without them,  there is no "know for oneself" from which to leverage.

       

      

Thanks for your detailed reply, Rocky,

 

It seems to me that a degree of 'faith' is required for all activities and achievements in life, whether it's becoming a champion swimmer or runner, or a billionaire, or a successful scientist who is awarded the Nobel prize, or beating Donald Trump in the next election, or an ascetic who eventually achieves a state of 'full awakening'.

 

The more difficult the task, the greater the faith or the confidence that is required in order to persevere and achieve one's goal.

 

The goal of Buddhist practice is to free oneself from all suffering by developing complete control of ones own thoughts and desires. I think that's a worthwhile pursuit, but I don't believe in Reincarnation, so I'm not worried about failing to reach the state of Nirvana before I die and being reborn into suffering. I try to live in the present and do everything in moderation.

 

I guess I'm a bit lazy. ????
 

[jamesc2000]

I never see being lazy as a negative. I have always seen it as a positive.

 

To some Buddhism is target oriented. Focus on achieving a goal.

 

That's one view point but another view could be Buddhism is about letting go.

 

Thai visa being a Thai forum maybe sees the technique to being awaken from Theravada eyes with the need for a life time of effort or maybe many life times of effort.

 

Looking at Japan with their emphasis on speed and efficiency they may use a Zen approach with their funny questions technique to being awaken.

 

Maybe quicker and don't need a life time or many life times of effort.

 

Anyway this fixation of achieving  the goal of enlightenment.

 

Who is the one that is trying to achieve the goal?

 

Who is the one that is trying to be awaken?

 

Who is the one that is trying to reach enlightenment?

 

Definitely not me, not mine, not I.

 

????  

[rockyysdt]

11 hours ago, jamesc2000 said:

I never see being lazy as a negative. I have always seen it as a positive.

 

To some Buddhism is target oriented. Focus on achieving a goal.

 

That's one view point but another view could be Buddhism is about letting go.

 

Thai visa being a Thai forum maybe sees the technique to being awaken from Theravada eyes with the need for a life time of effort or maybe many life times of effort.

 

Looking at Japan with their emphasis on speed and efficiency they may use a Zen approach with their funny questions technique to being awaken.

 

Maybe quicker and don't need a life time or many life times of effort.

 

Anyway this fixation of achieving  the goal of enlightenment.

 

Who is the one that is trying to achieve the goal?

 

Who is the one that is trying to be awaken?

 

Who is the one that is trying to reach enlightenment?

 

Definitely not me, not mine, not I.

 

????  

Hi James.

 

Regarding achievment of  Awakening, I would teach that the focus would be a doing practice well and diligently.

 

The focus would not be on Awakening, as this would take care of itself.

I found my best periods of meditation without thought were during periods where I gave up trying to meditate.

What I did, though, was concentrate on mindfulness of breathe, mindfulness of body, mindfulness on thought, and mindfulness of feelings.

Especially mindfulness of breathe.

 

Regarding "who Awakens", the answer would be, to "know for oneself". ????

 

My contention is that knowing about Buddhism is pointless without practice.

We have a roadmap.

Using it simply allows one a crack at Awakening.

 

But overcoming ones laziness, one of many deep seated habits, a measure of faith and dedication is required, as there is no first hand knowledge of what awaits without having successfully accomplished the practice.

 

I'm thinking, anything short of this is simply Ego related.

 

[rockyysdt]

19 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

Thanks for your detailed reply, Rocky,

 

It seems to me that a degree of 'faith' is required for all activities and achievements in life, whether it's becoming a champion swimmer or runner, or a billionaire, or a successful scientist who is awarded the Nobel prize, or beating Donald Trump in the next election, or an ascetic who eventually achieves a state of 'full awakening'.

 

The more difficult the task, the greater the faith or the confidence that is required in order to persevere and achieve one's goal.

 

The goal of Buddhist practice is to free oneself from all suffering by developing complete control of ones own thoughts and desires. I think that's a worthwhile pursuit, but I don't believe in Reincarnation, so I'm not worried about failing to reach the state of Nirvana before I die and being reborn into suffering. I try to live in the present and do everything in moderation.

 

I guess I'm a bit lazy. ????
 

Hi Vincent.

 

Does this mean you're suffering from one of the Fourteen unwholesome mental factors?

 

These are hindrances to your practice.

 

We both agree on Reincarnation, but I was referring to Re Birth!

 

 

[VincentRJ]

4 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

Hi Vincent.

 

Does this mean you're suffering from one of the Fourteen unwholesome mental factors?

 

These are hindrances to your practice.

 

We both agree on Reincarnation, but I was referring to Re Birth!

 

 

Hi Rocky,
I don't feel that I'm suffering from anything. I feel quite relaxed and calm all the time. Having checked what the fourteen unwholesome mental factors are, I see three which you might think would apply to me, because of my comments in this thread.
"Thīna - sloth
Middha - torpor
Vicikicchā - doubt"

 

Words need to be precisely defined when having a philosophical discussion, so I'll use the dictionary definitions. 

 

1. Sloth: 'reluctance to work or make an effort'.

I admit that I am very slothful and totally lazy with regard to activities which I consider useless and of no benefit, but not slothful regarding activities which I 'know for myself' are beneficial, such as regular exercise, exploring and photographing nature, growing and eating nutritious food, reading about history, philosophy, religion and so on, and discussing such issues.

 

2. Torpor: 'a state of physical or mental inactivity'.
I admit that I get into a state of 'torpor' for several hours every day when I go to sleep. I don't think that's unwholesome. ????

 

3. Doubt: 'to be uncertain about something'.
Again, I admit that I'm doubtful about lots of things, such as certain claims by certain authorities, and 'fake' news often reported in the media.
Doubt is an essential mental factor for progress in science. I'm doubtful that doubt is unwholesome.

 

I'm also doubtful about the reality of both the Vedic concept of Reincarnation and the Buddhist concept of Rebirth, unless you define Rebirth as no more than a recurrence of previous thoughts or states of mind in this life.
 

[jamesc2000]

11 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

Hi James.

 

Regarding achievment of  Awakening, I would teach that the focus would be a doing practice well and diligently.

 

The focus would not be on Awakening, as this would take care of itself.

I found my best periods of meditation without thought were during periods where I gave up trying to meditate.

What I did, though, was concentrate on mindfulness of breathe, mindfulness of body, mindfulness on thought, and mindfulness of feelings.

Especially mindfulness of breathe.

 

Regarding "who Awakens", the answer would be, to "know for oneself". ????

 

My contention is that knowing about Buddhism is pointless without practice.

We have a roadmap.

Using it simply allows one a crack at Awakening.

 

But overcoming ones laziness, one of many deep seated habits, a measure of faith and dedication is required, as there is no first hand knowledge of what awaits without having successfully accomplished the practice.

 

I'm thinking, anything short of this is simply Ego related.

 

Hi Rocky

 

Is it possible that working on diminishing the ego is more important than awakening?

 

Maybe no more ego means no one to awaken?

 

Possible?

 

????

[rockyysdt]

11 hours ago, jamesc2000 said:

Hi Rocky

 

Is it possible that working on diminishing the ego is more important than awakening?

 

Maybe no more ego means no one to awaken?

 

Possible?

 

????

Not more important, but part of the path/practice.

 

Firstly the four immeasurables (focus on Metta, Karuna, Upekkha, & Mudita), involve outward focus, away from the self (ego).

Cultivating these qualities diminishes ego.

 

Then Mindfulness, and Sitting practice take us towards the egoless.

 

In terms of "no more ego means no one to awaken?", the resultant state is said to be beyond the comprehension of the Un Awakened, so I can't shed light in this area, other than it's the Buddhists (as taught by the Buddha) ultimate goal.

Edited February 14, 2020 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

12 hours ago, jamesc2000 said:

Is it possible that working on diminishing the ego is more important than awakening?

 

Maybe no more ego means no one to awaken?

 

Possible?

 

????

Hi James,

I'm impressed by the following quote from the  Dhammapada, which is a collection of the sayings of the Buddha, found in the Pali Canon

 

‘‘We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make the world.’’
 

[spidermike007]

On 2/11/2020 at 10:50 AM, rockyysdt said:

Thanks Vincent.

 

In his quest for Awakening, the Buddha explored a number of practices which failed to bear fruit.

 

Yoga, for example can easily yield a healthy and mindful life and is relatively easy to adopt.

But can it yield Awakening?

 

The other practices the Buddha tried with no luck.

Weren't these practices capable of providing deep levels of relaxation and reduced stress, all capable of enhancing ones life?

 

None of these, however yielded Awakening.

 

Only practice of the Buddhas teaching (or teachings capable of yielding the same state) results in Awakening.

 

My understanding is that the Monkhood was devised, as the Buddha new that without full time practice it would be very difficult to realise Awakening.

 

He needed to offer something to the vast masses, most burdened by hard toil and sweat in order to eke out a living.

He gave them the  the “Four Immeasurables”. Anyone could practice a path to Awakening by cultivating metta (loving kindness), karuna (compassion), mudita (sympathetic joy or empathy), and upekkha (equanimity).

However I suspect this path might span many re births.

 

So, doesn't it still come back to faith?

The faith needed to invest in the lifelong time and effort in order to Awaken.

The faith to devote ones life to dedicated practice to achieve Awakening.

 

Anything short of Awakening can be achieved through Yoga and other practices.

 

So it seems to come back to requiring large measures of faith in order to expend dedication and practice over a lifetime to "know for oneself".

 

It's like trying something costing $50,000,000 before you buy.

But you must hand over a non refundable $50,000,000 first.

 

You can only "know for oneself" Awakening, after having expended your entire life practicing to achieve it?

 

Also, what are partial awakenings?

 

NB:  There's a man I met through my employment.

       He practices 30 minutes of meditation each day, eats a healthy diet, walks daily, practices regular stretching & weight training, and avoids alcohol.

       He also cares for his fellow man and practices the four immeasurables with his neighbours.

       I suggested he should increase his meditation by practice for longer periods, which would yield incites.

       He would not entertain this even though he has the luxury of time on his hands.

       He will never Awaken in this life.

           This is where belief and faith come in, for without them,  there is no "know for oneself" from which to leverage.

       

      

 

There are many forms of yoga. Many simplistically equate hatha yoga, with the entire world of yoga. On the other hand, Raja yoga can result in complete and total enlightenment. It focuses far more on meditation, and inward practices. And that appears to be what is missing from most practices here. Very few Buddhists in Thailand, actually devote a portion of their day to prayer, contemplation and meditation, core teachings of the Buddha.

 

And perhaps the biggest contradictions of them all is the practice of face. On so many levels it is the polar opposite of spirituality, and seems to actually prevent one from introspection, contemplation, and taking responsibility for one's actions in life. The core teaching of most spiritual practices is getting to know thyself. Enlightenment is self realization. How can you do that if you are pathologically afraid of looking within?

[jamesc2000]

6 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

Hi James,

I'm impressed by the following quote from the  Dhammapada, which is a collection of the sayings of the Buddha, found in the Pali Canon

 

‘‘We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make the world.’’
 

Wow I am also very impressed with that quote.

 

I know very little about Buddhism so its the first time I have read this quote. Thank you for highlighting it. I really appreciate hearing this.

 

The quote is really complete and put with so few words.

 

We really do make the world with our thoughts.

 

Not me, not mine, not I is something that is stuck in my head and keeps repeating but I don't know where it comes from.

 

But if "my" thoughts make "my" world then to see the real world then I cannot use "my" thoughts as it will only show "my" world and not the real world.

 

I think the Zen question also teaches us the truth of the Buddha's quote.

 

If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it does it make a sound?

 

Buddhism not only tells the truth but also expresses it so elegantly.

 

???? 

[jamesc2000]

I am not so sure faith and believe has any part to play in anything in Buddhism.

 

Say I get food poisoning and an ambulance brings me to hospital. Now I don't believe in western medicine but they pump me full of drugs and I get well. If they pump me full of the right drugs I get better regardless of whether I believe in western medicine or not.

 

Surely its the same with karma. I don't believe in karma and I do lots of bad things and if karma is true lots of bad things happen to me. Now if karma is true even if I never heard of karma let alone believe in it bad things are going to happen to me.

 

Same with reincarnation. Reincarnation like karma IF its true whether you believe in it or even heard of it, if it's a fact you will be reborn and maybe many times regardless.

 

However since Buddha said our thoughts create the world and I think in Buddhism there is this concept of we live in delusion or something like that then it is possible the biggest delusion our thoughts create is this concept of time.

 

It maybe possible that the real world not the one we create with our thoughts is always now. Our thoughts create the yesterday, today, tomorrow. If there is no past present and future then the concept of rebirth is moot.

 

The other big delusion I suspect is the concept of space. There is no yesterday I was far away, today I am here and tomorrow I will be going some where else. I suspect we are all stuck in the same place together. I think science says something like this is not only possible but also happened.

 

Before the big bang all the material in the world came together and got squashed into a very small space something like smaller than a pin head and then exploded outwards to create the world.

 

So its possible that our thoughts create time and space and our thoughts create the concept of reincarnation because rebirth needs time and space.

 

So rebirth and even karma for that matter may just be concepts created by our thoughts and our thought may not be true.

 

It maybe possible that our thoughts actually stops us from seeing the real world.

 

????  

[jamesc2000]

I could also be totally wrong and if anyone has any Buddhists teachings that dispel what I wrote it would be most welcome.

 

???? 

[jamesc2000]

I am open to new ideas as the thoughts I write here are not my thoughts. They are just thoughts that come into my head.

 

Even "my" head is so wrong. Its as wrong as the concept of "my" body. How is it "my" body? How much control do "I" have over "my" body? Very little.

 

My hair is turning white. How did that happen? I never ask my hair to turn white and I certainly didn't control it to turn white.

 

If my heart stops beating I will be dead. I am not controlling my heart beating. It beats by itself. Sometimes it beats faster and sometimes it beats slower, I don't control any of it.

 

My eyes sees and I don't control any of that. It just sees. I don't say rods and cones start seeing and tell me what you see.

 

So the thoughts are not mine, the body is not mine what is it that is me or mine or I? Maybe really nothing. 

 

???? 

 

Not me, not mine, not I.

 

However if I double park and I get a ticket I will pay the fine as I do not deny the actions and the consequences to be "mine".

 

However I happily pay with money that belongs to the person that is not me.

 

There is nothing like spending other people's money. Absolutely nothing.

[rockyysdt]

On 2/15/2020 at 12:04 PM, jamesc2000 said:

I am not so sure faith and believe has any part to play in anything in Buddhism.

 

Say I get food poisoning and an ambulance brings me to hospital. Now I don't believe in western medicine but they pump me full of drugs and I get well. If they pump me full of the right drugs I get better regardless of whether I believe in western medicine or not.

 

Surely its the same with karma. I don't believe in karma and I do lots of bad things and if karma is true lots of bad things happen to me. Now if karma is true even if I never heard of karma let alone believe in it bad things are going to happen to me.

????  

The problem with Kharma might be due to its interpretation.

 

Many think there is a ledger kept on each of us which records our deeds.

A ledger which influences our fate.

Many might discount such a thing as the thought of a ledger being kept which will somehow control ones future or destiny sounds absurd.

 

The word Karma (sanskrit) is a verb, and means "action" or what one does.

 

Influenced by conditioning and genetics, most humans behave in a habitual manner.

Whether bad, or good, we regularly do.

Some actions might be negative and others neutral or positive.,

 

Some things we might do are:

• Live unhealthy lifestyles in which we may fail to exercise, eat overly processed foods, and smoke & drink,  or
• Live dangerously by failing to obey traffic rules whilst intoxicated,  or
• Regularly take what doesn't belong to us,  or

 

These actions are our Kharma or "what we do".

Eventually, but not always, our Kharma may result in Vipaka which translates as "the fruits of Kharma".

 

If one lives an unhealthy lifestyles in which one may fail to exercise, eat overly processed foods, smoke & drink, this may result in disease or death.

 

If one lives dangerously by speeding, & failing to obey traffic rules whilst intoxicated this may result in death or serious injury or harm to others.

 

If one regularly takes what doesn't belong to them, punishment under the law or retribution may occur.

 

Kharma:  what you do/action

Vipaka: fruits of kharma

 

[rockyysdt]

23 hours ago, jamesc2000 said:

I am open to new ideas as the thoughts I write here are not my thoughts. They are just thoughts that come into my head.

 

Even "my" head is so wrong. Its as wrong as the concept of "my" body. How is it "my" body? How much control do "I" have over "my" body? Very little.

 

My hair is turning white. How did that happen? I never ask my hair to turn white and I certainly didn't control it to turn white.

 

If my heart stops beating I will be dead. I am not controlling my heart beating. It beats by itself. Sometimes it beats faster and sometimes it beats slower, I don't control any of it.

 

My eyes sees and I don't control any of that. It just sees. I don't say rods and cones start seeing and tell me what you see.

 

So the thoughts are not mine, the body is not mine what is it that is me or mine or I? Maybe really nothing. 

 

???? 

 

Not me, not mine, not I.

 

However if I double park and I get a ticket I will pay the fine as I do not deny the actions and the consequences to be "mine".

 

However I happily pay with money that belongs to the person that is not me.

 

There is nothing like spending other people's money. Absolutely nothing.

My experience is limited and some of my knowledge results from a level of faith in what was written.

 

Basically, your thoughts are the result of conditioning and genetics.

 

If you were raised from birth by another couple the resultant you would have a completely different set of values, beliefs and habits which would result in different thoughts.

 

You could say the values, beliefs and habits you express were someone elses, but you negotiate life thinking these are yours/you.

 

Most people act on their thoughts, often without thought as to whether their action was appropriate or the best one to take.

Your accumulated values, beliefs and habits are impermanent.

 

Practicing Sitting Meditation eventually yields another state in which there is consciousness without thought.

This can be difficult to achieve as ones thoughts are associated with ones Ego.

Ego thinks this is you and will try anything in its powers to remain in control.

 

With dedicated practice one can achieve long periods of consciousness without thought.

This state, free from thought, is said to be unconditioned and can yield many incites.

 

The real answers to your questions about I, me, my reveal themselves in consciousness without thought.

 

However, those who are unable to quieten the mind will remain in the state of Samsara.

A state anchored in I, me, my (ego).

While in this state there is no escaping the fruit of ones actions.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by rockyysdt

[jamesc2000]

1 hour ago, rockyysdt said:

My experience is limited and some of my knowledge results from a level of faith in what was written.

 

Basically, your thoughts are the result of conditioning and genetics.

 

If you were raised from birth by another couple the resultant you would have a completely different set of values, beliefs and habits which would result in different thoughts.

 

You could say the values, beliefs and habits you express were someone elses, but you negotiate life thinking these are yours/you.

 

Most people act on their thoughts, often without thought as to whether their action was appropriate or the best one to take.

Your accumulated values, beliefs and habits are impermanent.

 

Practicing Sitting Meditation eventually yields another state in which there is consciousness without thought.

This can be difficult to achieve as ones thoughts are associated with ones Ego.

Ego thinks this is you and will try anything in its powers to remain in control.

 

With dedicated practice one can achieve long periods of consciousness without thought.

This state, free from thought, is said to be unconditioned and can yield many incites.

 

The real answers to your questions about I, me, my reveal themselves in consciousness without thought.

 

However, those who are unable to quieten the mind will remain in the state of Samsara.

A state anchored in I, me, my (ego).

While in this state there is no escaping the fruit of ones actions.

 

 

Wow this is really true.

 

Really good post.

 

????

[Rancid]

On 2/15/2020 at 11:04 AM, jamesc2000 said:

I am not so sure faith and believe has any part to play in anything in Buddhism.

 

Say I get food poisoning and an ambulance brings me to hospital. Now I don't believe in western medicine but they pump me full of drugs and I get well. If they pump me full of the right drugs I get better regardless of whether I believe in western medicine or not.

 

Surely its the same with karma. I don't believe in karma and I do lots of bad things and if karma is true lots of bad things happen to me. Now if karma is true even if I never heard of karma let alone believe in it bad things are going to happen to me.

 

Same with reincarnation. Reincarnation like karma IF its true whether you believe in it or even heard of it, if it's a fact you will be reborn and maybe many times regardless.

 

However since Buddha said our thoughts create the world and I think in Buddhism there is this concept of we live in delusion or something like that then it is possible the biggest delusion our thoughts create is this concept of time.

 

It maybe possible that the real world not the one we create with our thoughts is always now. Our thoughts create the yesterday, today, tomorrow. If there is no past present and future then the concept of rebirth is moot.

 

The other big delusion I suspect is the concept of space. There is no yesterday I was far away, today I am here and tomorrow I will be going some where else. I suspect we are all stuck in the same place together. I think science says something like this is not only possible but also happened.

 

Before the big bang all the material in the world came together and got squashed into a very small space something like smaller than a pin head and then exploded outwards to create the world.

 

So its possible that our thoughts create time and space and our thoughts create the concept of reincarnation because rebirth needs time and space.

 

So rebirth and even karma for that matter may just be concepts created by our thoughts and our thought may not be true.

 

It maybe possible that our thoughts actually stops us from seeing the real world.

 

????  

Our thoughts are those of the present personality, and they do indeed hinder us from seeing the real world. However karma and reincarnation are not our deluded imaginings. There have been in the past those such as Buddha that can see things as they really are. Jesus too for that matter when interpreted correctly.

 

Karma and reincarnation are twin concepts, one without the other makes little sense. Of course it also deals with one of the main problems with Christianity etc, that being that we are born once, die and go north or south. Because it doesn't explain why some people of bad character are born into wealth and comfort whilst others with morality into lives of poverty or suffering. We are merely told it is Gods will. Karma/reincarnation resolves this paradox.

 

Karma does not negate free will in any way, it provides circumstance and we are free to react to that as we choose. Circumstance is based on our past actions, ones we don't remember for lengthy reasons.

 

Karma is however far more complex than that, as it is not only based on past actions, but thoughts as well, there is no hiding our true nature. Plus there is also collective karma that applies to nations, if you have been OK to see your countrymen inflict poverty, death or misery on others you are also collectively responsible for that.

 

Our lives are about evolution, we have been doing this for a long long time, there is only one way off the cycle, we need walk the walk, not merely talk the talk.

 

Even in Tibet, Buddhism has many variations from true to essentially dabbling in black magic, seems all beliefs get hijacked for various reasons.

[rockyysdt]

32 minutes ago, Rancid said:

Our thoughts are those of the present personality, and they do indeed hinder us from seeing the real world. However karma and reincarnation are not our deluded imaginings. There have been in the past those such as Buddha that can see things as they really are. Jesus too for that matter when interpreted correctly.

 

Karma and reincarnation are twin concepts, one without the other makes little sense. Of course it also deals with one of the main problems with Christianity etc, that being that we are born once, die and go north or south. Because it doesn't explain why some people of bad character are born into wealth and comfort whilst others with morality into lives of poverty or suffering. We are merely told it is Gods will. Karma/reincarnation resolves this paradox.

 

Karma does not negate free will in any way, it provides circumstance and we are free to react to that as we choose. Circumstance is based on our past actions, ones we don't remember for lengthy reasons.

 

Karma is however far more complex than that, as it is not only based on past actions, but thoughts as well, there is no hiding our true nature. Plus there is also collective karma that applies to nations, if you have been OK to see your countrymen inflict poverty, death or misery on others you are also collectively responsible for that.

 

Our lives are about evolution, we have been doing this for a long long time, there is only one way off the cycle, we need walk the walk, not merely talk the talk.

 

Even in Tibet, Buddhism has many variations from true to essentially dabbling in black magic, seems all beliefs get hijacked for various reasons.

Hi R.

 

Naturally when you speak of Karma, it's at a theoretical level as those Un Awakened don't have first hand knowledge/experience other than believing through faith in what has been written.

 

There is a subtle but important difference between Reincarnation & Re Birth.

Reincarnation involves the continuation of Me, I We (Ego), where as Re Birth doesn't include that which is impermanent and conditioned.

 

Of course "What is Re Born?", none of us can ever know or comprehend whilst Un Awakened.

 

Regarding free will, although we have it, one can never underestimate the grip of conditioning (habit).

In fact, my observations tell me conditioning is so powerful, this alone most likely contributes to the low success rate of escaping Re Birth through Awakening.

 

Even little things such as attempting to give up coffee, eat healthy, refrain from intoxicants, and regular exercise can be insurmountable. 

And these are on the periphery of diligent practice.

I've been developing the view that conditioning can be overcome through free will but the degree of difficulty, for most of us, is so great, that for many of us, it's almost equivalent to the loss of freewill.

 

Finally, although Re Birth better resolves the illustrated paradox, it creates many other un resolvable issues.

 

For example:

 

If we are impermanent and conditioned, and permanently expire upon death, and there is no soul nor spirit, that what is Re Born and what is Awakened?

 

That which is permanent and unconditioned was never born and therefore can is deathless.

Then Awakening appears to be the meeting of the permanent and unconditioned with the impermanent & conditioned.

What purpose is that, if the permanent and unconditioned will soon die?

 

Then, why are all the realms confined to hell, Earth, and Diva realms? 

What about the multi billion planets and star systems out in the cosmos?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

I recently came across the Acintita Sutta which warns that "the results of kamma" is one of the four incomprehensible subjects that are beyond all conceptualization and cannot be understood with logical thought or reason.

 

Acinteyya (Pali) is a Buddhist term that is commonly translated as imponderable or incomprehensible. There are four issues that should not be thought about, since this distracts from practice, and hinders the attainment of liberation.

 

From the following site: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN4_77.html

 

“There are these four inconceivables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?"
 

“The Buddha-range of the Buddhas [i.e., the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha] is an inconceivable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it."

 

“The jhāna-range of a person in jhāna [i.e, the range of powers that one may obtain while absorbed in jhāna].…"

 

“The [precise working out of the] results of kamma.…"

 

“Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an inconceivable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it."

 

So you've been warned. ????
 

[jamesc2000]

What a delightful post.

 

"the results of kamma" is one of the four incomprehensible subjects that are beyond all conceptualization and cannot be understood with logical thought or reason.

 

Lucky for some of us we have never been accused of logical thought or reason.

 

I have been accused of talking nonsense many many times. So if we cannot understand with a logical mind and with reason it might work with an utterly illogical mind and unreason. I have been called unreasonable many times I would very proudly say if I had one of those egos people keep talking about.

 

I have never discussed the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha. Until I read this I never knew there was a range. Not that I have put any thought into this matter but I would have assumed it was all the same had I put any thought to it.

 

Same with the range of powers that one may obtain while absorbed in jhāna. Until I read this I have put any thought into this matter.

 

However I have discussed karma and this might bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it."

 

If we live in a sane world and what everyone is doing is sane then maybe a little bit of madness and doing things differently might not be a bad thing.

 

If we keep going the same way, we might not have a planet left.

 

Discussing karma and listening to people explaining karma to me have never brought vexation which is the state of being annoyed, frustrated and worried. I have always found the opposite. Refreshing and delightful and even liberating.  

 

As for the "you" that have been warned? Not so sure which me its referring to.

 

Me the ego that doesn't exist? The me that is permanent and unconditioned was never born and therefore is deathless or the me that is impermanent & conditioned?

 

I am hoping not to get an answer as "I" don't want to put anyone at risk or going mad or getting annoyed, frustrated and worried.

 

That would only bring bad karma.

 

????

 

Taking ourselves too seriously, taking what we say too seriously that just expands the ego and big egos are not a good thing.

 

But I would just like to say I heard on the radio today that mediation changes the brain and helps people increase their attention span and hence help focus longer and think better.

 

And people that meditate put emotions down faster. As in something makes you angry and upset and you move onto something else you let go that emotion faster.

 

So I guess you don't carry on being angry or upset when you move onto doing the next thing. 

 

And someone said if everyone spend as much time mediating as much as they do brushing their teeth the world would be a much better place.

 

I really believe this and its like just 3 minutes twice a day for most of us.

 

Although some people never brush their teeth.

[VincentRJ]

On 2/18/2020 at 9:04 PM, jamesc2000 said:

Discussing karma and listening to people explaining karma to me have never brought vexation which is the state of being annoyed, frustrated and worried. I have always found the opposite. Refreshing and delightful and even liberating.  

 

Good for you, but I think it is the 'precise working out' of the results of Karma which could be 'vexatious' for some people, depending on their belief system.

 

The major problem involves the ancient Vedic or Hindu concept of a permanent soul or identity which is encapsulated in some sort of mysterious spiritual phenomenon which floats around after the material death of the body, waiting for an appropriate 'new birth in the womb' to enter, and transmit the good or bad karma to the placenta. Whether the new birth is human or animal, depends on the amount of good or bad Karma encapsulated in the spiritual phenomenon.
 

[jamesc2000]

So many good points by so many people here. Interesting points and points that on the surface may seem at odds with each other and even maybe contradictory.

 

Is there a framework that can marry all these points together in such a way that they are all true,

 

I think there is and its not even a complicated framework.

 

I listen a lot to Ajahn Brahm and one story is about a rich old lady that went for an operation. She went to Harley street and got a high price well established doctor.

 

And during the operation something went wrong and she flat lined and I think its what they term as clinically dead. She floated out of her body and can clearly see and hear everything that is going on and she saw the doctor frantically trying to revive her and blurted out, "don't die on me you stupid bitch."

 

In her out of body experience she also met a gatekeeper and he said to her your time is not up yet and you have to go back. And she shot back I am not going back because for the first time in many years she didn't have the pains and aches that afflicted her.

 

She could move so freely and enjoying her spirit body with her same cantankerous personality. The gatekeeper again told her her time is not up yet and refused and he shoved her back into her body at the same time the doctor managed to get her back.

 

Now if people wanted to do their own research on out of body experience there are so many medical and scientifically rigorously vetted papers published on this.

 

Now I believe this story by Ajahn Brahm to be exactly true and at the same time I also believe we don't have a permanent self.

 

Yes I understand this maybe a direct contradiction but I believed both to be true at the same time.

 

Our conditioned self works in the state of delusion and the delusion causes us to believe in time where there is a past, present and future where we are born, get old and die and there is rebirth and or reincarnation.

 

The delusion also caused us to see separation of us and other people and the concept of space.

 

Lastly the delusion also causes us to have a self.

 

So how to tie everything up together?

 

Well I always dream when I sleep even if I dose off for 2 minutes. And I think most people also dream at least sometime if not every second of sleep like me.

 

In our dreams we exist with realistic and very real life like experiences.

 

If monsters are chasing us we get frighten and it feels real. Has anyone here every stop, turned around and laugh at the monster and say it just a dream and you don't exist?

 

I had a really delightful dream playing with a shaggy dog for what felt like 20 minutes and I woke up feeling really happy as I love dogs and the first thought I had was I don't need to wash my hands as it was just a dream but in the dream I didn't know it was a dream and it felt so real.

 

So if dreams feel real and in the dream we cannot tell its a dream what makes us so sure what we are feeling now is real and not just a dream? Because we can pinch ourselves? If we can do that then please pinch yourself in your dream when monsters are chasing you to wake yourself up. No one can do that.

 

Now in our dreams we exist and we feel real but that "self" has never been born and will never die.

 

But we all know the us in our dreams does not exist at all but is an illusion created by our minds.

 

To end the story the doctor went to check up on the old lady and ask how she was feeling.

And she asked him pointedly not letting him off - why did you call me a stupid bitch?

 

????

[jamesc2000]

I have no clue how karma works but its seem at least to me it works really well for our benefit.

 

On the BBC world service I heard this story about a black lady who really wanted to work and signed up with a cleaning company.

 

They send her to the other side of town where she has never been before - the white side of town. She knocked on the door and a white lady screamed at her Go away. go away.

 

And she explained I am the cleaner sent to clean your house. And she heard the lady on the phone arguing with the cleaning company and they made it quite clear they will not be sending anyone else so she reluctantly opened the door still with the hostile suspicious look.

 

Refusing to talk to her the old lady led her upstairs to a bed with an old man connected to tubes from his body to a machine. The machine was pumping frothy liquid from his lungs into a container which will overflow when full and spill on the floor.

 

The stench was so bad she had to control her gag reflex not to throw up. She worked out she has to care for the old sick man and clean up the mess.

 

She refused to concede defeat and started cleaning up. The old lady from a distance keeping an eye on her and still refusing to say a word to her. In between cleaning up she found a chair to rest and saw a bible and went to it to take comfort. Above a bible she saw a white robe and the thing that caught her eye was the exquisite sewing on the robe and then stepping back to admire it she saw the hood with two holes for eyes.

 

Then it struck her it was the robe of a grand wizard of the KKK to her utter horror. At which point the old lady gave her the - that's what I have been trying to tell you look.

 

I think at that time the machine overflowed and she went to clean it up and carried on work as normal.

 

This went on for a few days and one day she had a call from the cleaning company saying she didn't need to work there anymore. The company explained that the old man died and the lady wanted the company to pass her a very big tip and to tell her - no one had ever looked after her husband so well and she had never see him so well cared for and peaceful.

 

Can you imagine a man devoted his whole life to the belief of white supremacy and racism and for his last few days to be so well cared for and comforted by a black lady with so much care and kindness he had to have a change a view he had for his whole life.

 

And this was at a time where feedback to service companies was not a norm and the old lady wanted her to know what a good job she did and to pass her and the lady's and her husband's appreciation.

 

I think this is karma in action working fantastically well changing people's views and targeting directly to our core.

 

There are so many stories like that this that I cannot help believe in the goodness of karma.

 

Or that karma works to everyone's benefit and never to our detriment although maybe when karma deflates our ego its good for us but may not feel so good to us at that moment.

 

????    

[jamesc2000]

I don't think enough credit is given to the Buddha as the Buddhist way is the only way.

 

And this is everything. Climate change, science, trade between countries, how companies should work, stock markets etc.

 

I maybe conditioned and bias but its Buddhist conditioning and bias which I don't want to swap for anything in the world.

 

Not for all the money in the world, not for anything.

 

????

 

 

[rockyysdt]

17 hours ago, jamesc2000 said:

I don't think enough credit is given to the Buddha as the Buddhist way is the only way.

 

And this is everything. Climate change, science, trade between countries, how companies should work, stock markets etc.

 

I maybe conditioned and bias but its Buddhist conditioning and bias which I don't want to swap for anything in the world.

 

Not for all the money in the world, not for anything.

 

????

 

 

 

Hi J.

 

I don't think it's correct to say "the Buddhist way is the only way".

 

Even the term "Buddhist" was never coined by Gautama Siddhartha.

I don't think he would have liked it, preferring to be known as tathagata (teacher).

 

There are others who also taught Awakening. 

Their focus, words and practices may differ but the end state is the same.

 

Even within Buddhism itself, there are several paths and practices.

[jamesc2000]

5 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

 

Hi J.

 

I don't think it's correct to say "the Buddhist way is the only way".

 

Even the term "Buddhist" was never coined by Gautama Siddhartha.

I don't think he would have liked it, preferring to be known as tathagata (teacher).

 

There are others who also taught Awakening. 

Their focus, words and practices may differ but the end state is the same.

 

Even within Buddhism itself, there are several paths and practices.

Hi R

 

Thank you very much for your insightful post. I always learn a lot from your writings.

 

Its quite clearly wrong to say the Buddhist way is the only way.

 

Maybe it would have been better to say its a great way. Other ways that work would also be great.

 

I guess Buddhist way is open to interpretation but I was thinking of things like Therapy. Rightly or wrongly I understand this to be from the root word Theravada.

 

I also understand that Buddha always gave people the freedom of choice and the freedom of thought. There is not a lot of dogma and doctrine and that's fantastic. There is not a lot of dogma and doctrine to bog people down. 

 

And the Buddhist's way is always current. I think Buddhism says something like yesterday is gone and tomorrow hasn't come what is important is today. So its never stuck in time.

 

Buddhism is not faith based and that is beautiful allowing people to make up their own minds and none of this you must believe and my way is the only way.

 

I don't know if mindfulness is exclusive to Buddhism but did anyone espouse it before the Buddha? I am not sure. I understand today mindfulness is marketed as a new age technique but there is nothing new about it to Buddhism.

 

Acceptance I am sure is not exclusive to Buddhism but I am not sure any other religion practices it as much. 

 

Same with kindness, compassion and tolerance, every religion preaches this but how many really believe in it?

 

Loving kindness is also every religion's mantra but how much is really absorbed and not lip service. Not to say some or many Buddhists do not just pay lip service.

 

But to be fair the message of Jesus of kindness, compassion, tolerance and forgiveness is exactly the same as that of Buddhism.

 

And rightly or wrongly I understand his message to be exactly the same for the only that he studied Buddhism in Tibet. I am not going to push this as I don't want to open any controversy.

 

Please feel free to correct anything or add anything you like. 

 

????

[rockyysdt]

15 hours ago, jamesc2000 said:

Hi R

 

Thank you very much for your insightful post. I always learn a lot from your writings.

 

Its quite clearly wrong to say the Buddhist way is the only way.

 

Maybe it would have been better to say its a great way. Other ways that work would also be great.

 

I guess Buddhist way is open to interpretation but I was thinking of things like Therapy. Rightly or wrongly I understand this to be from the root word Theravada.

 

I also understand that Buddha always gave people the freedom of choice and the freedom of thought. There is not a lot of dogma and doctrine and that's fantastic. There is not a lot of dogma and doctrine to bog people down. 

 

And the Buddhist's way is always current. I think Buddhism says something like yesterday is gone and tomorrow hasn't come what is important is today. So its never stuck in time.

 

Buddhism is not faith based and that is beautiful allowing people to make up their own minds and none of this you must believe and my way is the only way.

 

I don't know if mindfulness is exclusive to Buddhism but did anyone espouse it before the Buddha? I am not sure. I understand today mindfulness is marketed as a new age technique but there is nothing new about it to Buddhism.

 

Acceptance I am sure is not exclusive to Buddhism but I am not sure any other religion practices it as much. 

 

Same with kindness, compassion and tolerance, every religion preaches this but how many really believe in it?

 

Loving kindness is also every religion's mantra but how much is really absorbed and not lip service. Not to say some or many Buddhists do not just pay lip service.

 

But to be fair the message of Jesus of kindness, compassion, tolerance and forgiveness is exactly the same as that of Buddhism.

 

And rightly or wrongly I understand his message to be exactly the same for the only that he studied Buddhism in Tibet. I am not going to push this as I don't want to open any controversy.

 

Please feel free to correct anything or add anything you like. 

 

????

Your post reminds me of the four Immeasurables. ????

 

• metta (loving kindness)
• karuna (compassion - to feel another's pain as if it were yours)
• mudita (sympathetic joy or empathy)
• upekkha (equanimity).

 

When being Mindful of those around us, I observe myself being analytical/critical at times.

 

When interacting with others, or observing others interactions, I'm also analysing intentions of ones behaviors.

 

When cultivating Immeasurables ones intentions are vital.

 

Many make offerings to Monks for future good luck, or to accumulate positive Kharma.

I come away thinking, such offerings are hollow if they are done for personal gain.

 

One purpose of the Immeasurables is to turn attention outward away from Ego, focusing instead towards those receiving your benevolence.

 

The Buddha taught the following in order to cultivate the immeasurables.

 

A monk suffuses the world in the four directions with a mind of benevolence, then above, and below, and all around – the whole world from all sides, completely, with a benevolent, all-embracing, great, boundless, peaceful and friendly mind … There is no limit to the unfolding of this heart liberating benevolence.

 

Until Awakened we are all compromised to varying degrees.

When I analyse myself or others interacting, I'm learning that there is usually an ulterior motive.

Mindfulness of ones motives can assist us to move towards a mind of true benevolence.

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by rockyysdt