Keep me safe! - Why Road safety in Thailand cannot improve.

[Airbagwill]

I am not a “good driver” - I’m not even sure what that is. The science of road safety protects me from both myself and the vagaries of whatever environment I’m driving in.

I do however credit myself with the ability to understand enough about what is happening around me to appreciate the limits of my own observations and perception and realise that the reason I’m still alive and uninjured is not down to my “superb” driving skills; the environment I drive in is far too bug and complex for that.

 

When I drive I rely on various other factors to keep me safe; my vehicle, the roads upon which I drive a shared highway code, my own awareness of where I’m driving, the available services of a country to save me in case of a crash and the ability of a country to learn from my mistakes.

 

Some countries do all this better than others. It depends on how well organised they are. The more democratic a country, the more likely they are able to protect and look after their citizens. This is the people protecting their own. Some people don’t fully understand the role of the government in this refer to it as a “nanny state” - as if it is some negative imposition on some misconceived freedoms.

The reality is that there is no such thing a “big” or “little” government - it’s a fallacy - all states have laws; in a democracy, they are designed to protect, in other countries they are designed to oppress.

 

So it is with road safety; you can introduce systems that protect everyone or just blame and punish individuals, usually after the event which is clearly shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. Road safety is about anticipating dangers BEFORE they happen.

 

All countries need road transport - business, commerce transport of goods and people and of course personal travel such as family or tourism. All this should occur with the minimum loss of life - in the EU - the target is now ZERO and some countries are getting very close to this. - Crashes don’t have to happen - there is no such thing as an “accident”.

Countries analyse their transport needs and organise accordingly to achieve minimum loss of life and injury.

Road deaths and injuries cost money; on a national level they change demographics, cost time and money, medical costs and lost transport hours on a personal level bereavement and injury cause lost income and permanent changes in family structures through disablement.

 

Thailand is not a poor country but no country can support the massive annual death rate that Thailand experiences for a long time. Unfortunately Thailand has never really achieved a stable democratic system and tends to be run not so much be reason, research and deduction but more by reaction, retaliation and dictum. This unfortunately is carried out by those in power who appear to have no understanding of road safety but nevertheless believe that they do. Unless there is a sea-change within the authorities and they listen to the advice available, Thailand is caught in a Dunning Kruger trap for the foreseeable future.

[Rimmer]

A most derogatory post has been removed, its a good topic so lets discuss nicely, thank you:

 

11) You will not post slurs, degrading or overly negative comments directed towards Thailand, specific locations, Thai institutions such as the judicial or law enforcement system, Thai culture, Thai people or any other group on the basis of race, nationality, religion, gender or sexual orientation.
 

[i claudius]

Not wishing to be derogotary but the standard of driving here is abysmal

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

Thailand is caught in a Dunning Kruger trap for the foreseeable future.

Driving here is not much difference than anywhere else is my observation.

[KMartinHandyman]

You must have driven in some really unsafe places. Just yesterday I had to stop and pull over to avoid a head on collision with a truck from the opposite direction overtaking despite the double solid yellow line. Sorry but that’s never happened to me anywhere but Thailand and actually it’s almost a daily occurrence for me in Issan.

[gmac]

17 minutes ago, KMartinHandyman said:

You must have driven in some really unsafe places. Just yesterday I had to stop and pull over to avoid a head on collision with a truck from the opposite direction overtaking despite the double solid yellow line. Sorry but that’s never happened to me anywhere but Thailand and actually it’s almost a daily occurrence for me in Issan.

The first truck approaching you head-on is quite is easy to miss as you can see it, it's the one behind blindly following that'll get you!  Happened to me in Isaan as well, only just missed it.

[KMartinHandyman]

The first truck approaching you head-on is quite is easy to miss as you can see it, it's the one behind blindly following that'll get you!  Happened to me in Isaan as well, only just missed it.

Lol,,yup! My wife and in laws are befuddled why I don’t blow my horn during near misses. I try to explain I’m too busy downshifting and steering for avoidance along with the fact it doesn’t help. She understands that a little but says “you can let him know he does wrong”. I do enjoy her naivety and innocence after I calm down!
I tell her I don’t have three hands and she can work the horn for me if it will make her feel better. She actually tried it yesterday but it didn’t go off because you really have to depress it strongly. After that embarrassment she announced ,,I’m the driver and it’s not her job.
Trips through the rural farm country washboard, potholed dirt roads are so much fun in my bil’s low rider Isuzu p/u where ox herds can walk faster than I can drive to keep from bottoming out while delivering a half ton of rice in the back.

[Airbagwill]

The OP is nothing to do with personal anecdotes about perceived driving in Thailand. It is about road safety and how it is inadequately established.

If you don't understand the OP, why not ask?

If you want to post anecdotes about how you think Thai people are "bad drivers", why not start your own thread on that topic?

Edited December 31, 2017 by Airbagwill

[Airbagwill]

20 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Driving here is not much difference than anywhere else is my observation.

As this is about road safety, not driving I don't see your point.

[everett kendall]

There are driving laws on the books but they are enforced. 

 

Bless their little hearts Motorcycles are in or cause most accidents, I believe.

 

The police only do Road Checks Points and rarely (if at all) cruise and issue tickets for incorrect driving, so people are allowed to mostly drive as fate allows. 

 

I would like to imagine what it would be like if there were Motorcycle cops cruising and giving tickets like in other countries.   

 

I am now learned in the ways of driving here but sometimes I wish it was safer for all.

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

As this is about road safety, not driving I don't see your point.

 

On 12/30/2017 at 9:01 AM, Airbagwill said:

I am not a “good driver” - I’m not even sure what that is.

Being taught to drive & ride safely in any road conditions, situation also adjusting to different driving habits is important for road safety so I don't see your point.

[chrissables]

21 minutes ago, everett kendall said:

There are driving laws on the books but they are enforced. 

 

Bless their little hearts Motorcycles are in or cause most accidents, I believe.

 

The police only do Road Checks Points and rarely (if at all) cruise and issue tickets for incorrect driving, so people are allowed to mostly drive as fate allows. 

 

I would like to imagine what it would be like if there were Motorcycle cops cruising and giving tickets like in other countries.   

 

I am now learned in the ways of driving here but sometimes I wish it was safer for all.

Motorbikes cause most accidents? Have you actually ridden around the country to see how being "a lowly" motorbike rider means get out of my way or else!

 

In accidents, sure, mostly caused by other vehicles.

[Kwasaki]

16 hours ago, KMartinHandyman said:

Just yesterday I had to stop and pull over to avoid a head on collision with a truck from the opposite direction

It's common knowledge it's one of the many driving habits to know about when someone starts driving in Thailand. 

[connda]

I came home from a trip to Mae Hong Son.  As I rounded blind corners, the sheer number of times that I found myself facing oncoming vehicles driving in my lane in order to 'cut corners' was really staggering.  And most made no attempt to pull back into their own land, but instead expected you to drive off onto the shoulder.  The level of aggressive driving is both amazing and suicidal.  I don't particularly care if drivers like that kill themselves, but unfortunately they put everyone on the road at risk.  The BIB could quadruple the number of road blocks, but they will never address the underlying aggressive and dangerous driving that occurs on the road between those road blocks. 

[Enoon]

2 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

As this is about road safety, not driving I don't see your point.

 

Notionally it's about road safety, but actually it's about the difference between cultures.

 

No need for essays, it's all been done, there's plenty of literature.

 

Start on the inside and work your way out, it's a lot quicker.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ebean001]

I really am more alarmed by USA drivers than Thai. The individual thai driver does not seem to speed. They really are good at creating traffic jams so it is difficult to get killed on the city streets. I certainly know about driving in the mountains but I must add...you better know what your doing. A tree branch in the road means construction ahead. I can handle that but I had to know it first...and live thru it. Yes, they cross the yellow line all the time in the mountains. You got to know that. Thai know it. You do not.

Look at the statistics and I think individual car deaths is somewhat normal. I am not going to research that but what is not normal is the 73% motorbike deaths. That is huge and I think it has to do with the increased number of cars on the streets/roads. It might be interesting to know the motorbike deaths where a car/truck/etc was involved.

[chdailey]

'Airbagwill' makes some valuable, salient points.  I suspect he has some transportation safety or industrial safety background. So the question would be..How do we get a government to listen / respond / learn from individuals or organizations that are not part of the established institutions?  There have been a lot of (physical) transportation improvements over the past several years in my area around Chiang Mai.  There is evidence that more cameras are being placed strategically all over the country to catch speeders (I suspect this is more in the interest of revenue generation than public safety, much like similar tactics used around the US).  Running red lights is still a very big problem where I live in Hang Dong and one can only hope that camera deployment at intersections will start to put a dent in those deadly circumstances.  Poor driving skills and understanding / following general traffic regulations on the part of the public and commercial drivers seem to account for the high (highway) traffic fatalities during the holidays (as opposed to poor road conditions).  Accident and fatality numbers during these times really point to a lip-service-only approach to serious traffic law enforcement.  As the saying goes..."the proof is in the pudding".  Again, the challenge is to convince Thai institutions that there are some valuable assets that could be tapped to improve the situation with little or no cost to the government.  Most of us that live in this country have a strong desire to see it progress and thrive, I think. If the Thai government is monitoring sites like ours (and I'm fairly certain they are), why not try to open a channel to forward positive, productive suggestions with an official government receipt acknowledged through the channel?  You know, strength in numbers and all that.

[12DrinkMore]

1 hour ago, everett kendall said:

Bless their little hearts Motorcycles are in or cause most accidents, I believe.

 

Statistics.

 

That is because of the sheer numbers of motorcycles on the roads.

 

It is like that old UK safety campaign, "95% of accidents occur within 5 miles of home".

 

 

 

 

[12DrinkMore]

38 minutes ago, chdailey said:

If the Thai government is monitoring sites like ours (and I'm fairly certain they are), why not try to open a channel to forward positive, productive suggestions with an official government receipt acknowledged through the channel?

 

 

You have surely not been in Thailand very long.

 

A Thai official listening to, accepting and acknowledging advice issued by a foreigner is a concept that no Thai will be able to wrap their his/her around.

 

Edited December 31, 2017 by 12DrinkMore

[themerg]

There are traffic rules in the Thai driver's manual, and that's it. You cannot fine people who cannot afford to pay. For many Thais, driving is their livelihood. There aren't enough police to solve this problem. Five hundred thousand police would need to be hired nationwide to solve this problem. The crooked politicians would have to use the government's money properly and give some of their dirty money to the cause, not going to happen. 

[Chongalulu]

2 hours ago, Digitalnomadthailand said:

What i find quite amusing in these comments is the suggestion that Thai drive so badly and i guess the white anglo saxons are such perfect drivers who drive so safely, but yet in my few years in Thailand i have observed many of these such perfect people riding motocycles with no protective equipment, and assume many drive mororcycles and motor vehicles without the required permits either ?....

I have witness the perfect expatirates riding motorcycles 3 and 4 up with their children on board as well...

I think its the Christian bible which states those who live in glass houses should not throw stones or words to that effect



 

Personal anecdotes are no substitute for established statistics- just as the Bible is no substitute for science. I think the saying is people in glasshouses shouldn’t masturbate with the light on...

[alien365]

So what areas would you propose to improve road safety? Some of my pet peeves that I consider dangerous are signage, plants and the like at junctions making it impossible to see what's coming without sticking your nose out in the road. Streetlights that don't actually light the streets, road surfaces that reflect and are as slippery as an ice rink in the wet. No traffic lights at most U-turns, no give way signs, unmanned railway crossings, poor drainage.

[Guitar God]

To make Thai roads safer a few changes  are required. 

 

Theory tests which grant you a learners permit. 

 

Drivers training with proficiency tests. 

 

Police issuing tickets for offenses that actually increase the likelihood of accidents, aggressive driving and speeding,  unsafe and illegal maneuvers. Fix-it tickets for burnt out lights, bald tires, and vehicles that are falling apart. 

 

They need to concentrate on safety violations and not revenue. Helmets help protect cyclists involved in an accident but they don't prevent accidents. Police will ticket a driver at night for no helmet but don't care if they are driving with no headlight or tail lights. 

On 8/20/2017 at 4:58 PM, LivinginKata said:

 

Have it here on Karon Cable.  After Fox News then Sky is just so  insipid and boring. FNC was pure news entertainment for me, never a dull moment. Yet both owned by leftie Murdoch. Since Ailes was ousted from FNC the channel line-up has headed downhill. But the  Utube FNC live stream feed meets all my viewing needs.

 

On 10/10/2017 at 9:16 AM, banlampang said:

3M disposable ear plugs - you won't hear a thing!

 

On 11/19/2017 at 7:55 PM, fiddlehead said:

What is your electric bill?

 

[Brunolem]

5 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

The OP is nothing to do with personal anecdotes about perceived driving in Thailand. It is about road safety and how it is inadequately established.

If you don't understand the OP, why not ask?

If you want to post anecdotes about how you think Thai people are "bad drivers", why not start your own thread on that topic?

Road safety is closely linked to discipline and education in general, something that is not exactly the strong point of the Thai population.

The Thais seem to have taken too literally their motto "Thailand not same", and often a foreigner might wonder "are they doing this on purpose, just to show that they are different?".

This willingness to appear different sometimes translates into an apparent superiority complex, leading them to believe that they don't need to listen, even less to learn, because "they know" (luu leauu)...they are different!

This is the case in almost everything where serious learning is requested, including obviously driving.

Why do they think that they can do without the driving lessons, sitting in a modified car with a double set of pedals and a qualified instructor?

Because they know and they are not same!

But the same could be said for the electricty network that, among other things, also kills quite a few people, starting with their "engineers" who operate unprotected in high voltage environment and regularly electrocute themselves, because they have no idea what they are dealing with.

In my village, they managed to kill all the...televisions in one nice sweep, thanks to a massive surge, following a little "mistake".

In short, the real issue in not road safety, this is only a consequence of a much larger problem, which is a general unwillingness to learn and a total rejection of discipline.

[tandor]

20 hours ago, KMartinHandyman said:

Lol,,yup! My wife and in laws are befuddled why I don’t blow my horn during near misses. I try to explain I’m too busy downshifting and steering for avoidance along with the fact it doesn’t help. She understands that a little but says “you can let him know he does wrong”. I do enjoy her naivety and innocence after I calm down!
I tell her I don’t have three hands and she can work the horn for me if it will make her feel better. She actually tried it yesterday but it didn’t go off because you really have to depress it strongly. After that embarrassment she announced ,,I’m the driver and it’s not her job.
Trips through the rural farm country washboard, potholed dirt roads are so much fun in my bil’s low rider Isuzu p/u where ox herds can walk faster than I can drive to keep from bottoming out while delivering a half ton of rice in the back.

..should be de-husked by the time you get there.

[montereyjp]

This topic comes up many times and as I have said before the biggest reason a lot of Thais are horrible drivers is the lack of patrol cars.. standing on the side of the road passing out "no helmet" tickets does nothing to improve traffic safety. There are hardly any consequences for driving reckless until you get in an accident and even then the fines are minimal. As far as the OP no idea what he was on about but as many of you have stated defensive driving is the only way to try and avoid accidents in Thailand. Heads up be alert and try to stay out of the way.  Happy New Year and be very safe if you are out there driving.. 

[Lacessit]

The key to driving successfully in Thailand is defensive driving. I don't drive my scooter much above 40 km/Hr in CM. When driving my car, I assume everyone around me is an unpredictable, homicidal idiot. Has worked for me for 9 years now, fingers crossed.

The main reason for bad Thai driving is their driving instructors. They should go back to the rice fields. The Thai Government could make an enormous difference to the road toll by employing falangs like me on a voluntary basis to teach basic driving skills; however, that's a matter of face, so it won't happen.

I can still remember the politically incorrect comment a Scottish mining engineer made to me after my Egyptian peer had rolled a long base Land Rover - a considerable feat in itself, given the low centre of gravity. He said " I think it's a mistake to give them car keys, when we've only just finished teaching them how to ride bicycles".

Happy New Year ( Bee Dee Mai ) to everyone.

[lvr181]

To the OP:-

 

1) I would say that 'good' is subjective.

2) Never say never!

 

Anything can improve but sometimes in means a huge shift in cultural values. That, IMHO, is the biggest stumbling block. Sure, improved roading, improved enforcement and the will to do "something" may help but it is a societal problem not just a driver/rider problem.

 

In the meantime, practice safe and defensive driving habits and ALWAYS drive to the conditions. It should better your odds of not becoming a road trauma statistic.

[Airbagwill]

7 hours ago, Enoon said:

 

Notionally it's about road safety, but actually it's about the difference between cultures.

 

No need for essays, it's all been done, there's plenty of literature.

 

Start on the inside and work your way out, it's a lot quicker.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I doubt if many people know what they mean by "culture" and would be quite unable to offer a satisfactory definition, I can't accept that premise at all.

[Airbagwill]

1 hour ago, lvr181 said:

To the OP:-

 

1) I would say that 'good' is subjective.

2) Never say never!

 

Anything can improve but sometimes in means a huge shift in cultural values. That, IMHO, is the biggest stumbling block. Sure, improved roading, improved enforcement and the will to do "something" may help but it is a societal problem not just a driver/rider problem.

 

In the meantime, practice safe and defensive driving habits and ALWAYS drive to the conditions. It should better your odds of not becoming a road trauma statistic.

I have already implied that good is subjectivesubjective and in what context are you referring to "never"?

USA and France had worse death rates than this in the 1970s....so how would you define or identify the cultural shifts that took place there?