Thoughts on healthiest diet/vaccination programme for dogs

[dick dasterdly]

We're all constantly looking for the best way to feed/vaccinate our dogs here in Thailand, and a thread on tick problems made me think a separate thread on how diet/vaccinations affect their immune systems may be useful.

 

'Common sense' indicates that a largely raw food diet is likely to be better for our dogs (?), but this is easier said than done - especially as meat, other than chicken and pork, is relatively expensive.

 

Vaccinations are another contentious issue, with different schools of thought on whether annual vaccinations are necessary - or harmful.

 

Personally, I have stopped (for the time being) feeding my dogs chicken as a result of various skin problems.  (Vet said chicken here is best avoided for dogs with skin problems.)  But there are so many other possible 'factors' it's turned into a difficult jigsaw to rule out all the possible culprits!

 

A UK 'dog-breeder' friend (all pets, and she only bred one litter a year) was adamant that only puppy vaccinations were necessary, and annual vaccinations thereafter were harmful - and as I've only known puppies or never vaccinated dogs die from these diseases, I'm inclined to believe her.

[wildewillie89]

37 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

A UK 'dog-breeder' friend (all pets, and she only bred one litter a year) was adamant that only puppy vaccinations were necessary, and annual vaccinations thereafter were harmful - and as I've only known puppies or never vaccinated dogs die from these diseases, I'm inclined to believe her.

The world guidelines use Dr. Ronald Schultz research. He is kind of the god father of vaccines. In the 1970s from memory he had already said vaccination protocol should be 3 years with his, then, current research. It took 20 odd years for the governments to finally believe him. 

He doesn't vaccinate his dogs, other than rabies (required by law), after puppy hood. However, he titer tests them to know exactly when the mothers antibodies have left the dog, and he titer tests them throughout their lives,  That is probably where your friend is getting her information from. The current trend in the West now is to titer, not vaccinate. Over vaccination has a range of possible immediate side effects, but many more long term side effects. Seeing as the laws have been changed in developed countries to 3 yearly, I cant see why we shouldn't follow this also. 

Thai vets will claim 'climate' effects vaccines. However, when the WSAVA came to Thai, they found no research or training on vaccinology in Thai universities so it is a load of garbage. I understand this is a very different style of thinking for many as it challenges life time thoughts. However, it is science. I would personally suggest follow Western/World guidelines. Puppy vaccines, then 12 months later, and then every 3 years after that. I would also only vaccinate core. Find a vet that stocks the 3 in 1, rather than 7 in 1. If the vet doesn't stock it, probably says a lot about his knowledge of vaccinology and more about his knowledge of business. 

 

Minimum Duration Of Immunity For Canine Vaccines

Distemper- 7 years by challenge/15 years by serology
Parvovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology
Adenovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 9 years by serology
Canine rabies – 3 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology

Dr Schultz concludes: “Vaccines for diseases like distemper and canine parvovirus, once administered to adult animals, provide lifetime immunity.”  (Are we vaccinating too muchJAVMA, No. 4, August 15, 1995, pg. 421)

 

[dick dasterdly]

Fortunately, I live on Phuket (no rabies), and it's extremely unlikely they'd come into contact with a dog suffering from a contagious disease.  Which makes it easy to think that routine vaccinations are likely more harmful than beneficial.

[dick dasterdly]

Still a bit worried about raw pork (unless frozen for 3 months), but knowing that they happily enjoy any disgusting, rotted food on the beach makes it obvious that their digestive system is incredibly strong!  So I'll give it a try.

 

I'll also wait to see whether changing from Nexguard to Bravecto helps with the skin problems.  If it does, I can try chicken again.

[wildewillie89]

I think the most important thing to do is just watch the dogs extremely closely (and have a good look at their waste). Early treatment for any problem is the most effective treatment. 

[wildewillie89]

A thought that just occurred to me was 'desexing'. What are people's positions on spaying and neutering? It seems more and more vets, not restricted by local laws, seem to be coming out advocating not to do it, or not until the dog has fully formed anyway. 

My female is about 20 months old now, so it is heading to the time where I am thinking about getting her done. On the flip side of that I was chatting to my sister the other day and got talking about how a few of our dogs back in Australia did their ACLs. I looked into it a bit and desexing significantly increases the likelihood of dogs doing their knees. 

Pyometra and breast cancer seem to be the two key points to desex for a female. However, recent studies have suggested a more aggressive form of cancer, bone cancer, is linked to desexing also (for bigger dogs). From my understanding, Scandanavian countries don't do it much unless a medical emergency (like Pyometra), so I am weighing up the options. Currently I am looking at taking the uterus out, but leaving the ovaries in to balance hormones, or if I don't then separating them during heat. 

For males, their seems to be no real benefit to having them done other than to stop unwanted humping/marking behaviour (I am assuming people have secured yards of course re roaming). As a big cancerous tumour in the genitals should be noted in the annual check up by the vet. Their is the old myth that it will help with aggression, but with males it seems to do nothing, and for females it may actually increase aggression. 

Just a different thought in terms of health, as where I come from dogs are done within the first 6 months of life so I haven't really ever looked into it. 

[wildewillie89]

32 minutes ago, Arjen said:

In my homecountry they advise to neuter female dogs when they are adult. This reduces the risk for breast cancer, and an other kind of cancer from what I do not know the english name.

 

We have all our female dogs neutered, as we have many dogs, and it saves us from a lot of trouble when a female dog is "in heat" 

 

Our male dogs have "bad luck"wen the behavior requires an operation. So far only one of them had this bad luck.... What happens often with neutered dogs is that they gain wait. Our male dog became very, very heavy. 

 

Only one female dog is gaining some weight, but not excessive....

 

Arjen.

 

Yes, weight gain was the other concern. I think it is more of a must and you are right to do it in your situation due to the fact you have a big pack. 

 

I never had the chance to own dogs that weren't done of an age above puppy hood. We got fed that it is important for temperament (really it is population control). Living in Thai and interacting with many dogs who aren't done, I can see now the temperament point is a load of rubbish. 

 

Yes, I think females are definitely more important to do. The large to giant size breeds just leave the ovaries in (getting a quote for that next week).

 

Anyone had a gastropexy done to limit chances of bloat? I had one dog die in the past from bloat, pretty brutal experience to go through and mine are high risk breeds. 

[dick dasterdly]

20 hours ago, wildewillie89 said:

A thought that just occurred to me was 'desexing'. What are people's positions on spaying and neutering? It seems more and more vets, not restricted by local laws, seem to be coming out advocating not to do it, or not until the dog has fully formed anyway. 

My female is about 20 months old now, so it is heading to the time where I am thinking about getting her done. On the flip side of that I was chatting to my sister the other day and got talking about how a few of our dogs back in Australia did their ACLs. I looked into it a bit and desexing significantly increases the likelihood of dogs doing their knees. 

Pyometra and breast cancer seem to be the two key points to desex for a female. However, recent studies have suggested a more aggressive form of cancer, bone cancer, is linked to desexing also (for bigger dogs). From my understanding, Scandanavian countries don't do it much unless a medical emergency (like Pyometra), so I am weighing up the options. Currently I am looking at taking the uterus out, but leaving the ovaries in to balance hormones, or if I don't then separating them during heat. 

For males, their seems to be no real benefit to having them done other than to stop unwanted humping/marking behaviour (I am assuming people have secured yards of course re roaming). As a big cancerous tumour in the genitals should be noted in the annual check up by the vet. Their is the old myth that it will help with aggression, but with males it seems to do nothing, and for females it may actually increase aggression. 

Just a different thought in terms of health, as where I come from dogs are done within the first 6 months of life so I haven't really ever looked into it. 

You're going to have to translate (into laymans' terms) the second para. as I'm not an expert, and have no idea as to the meaning of ACL's or "dogs doing their knees".  (Thinking about it, possibly joint problems re. the latter?)

 

Relying on personal experience, I had one un-neutered male (as I always longed for a puppy from him ) but this turned into a problem when he developed peeing and crapping problems, which was first mis-diagnosed as an enlarged prostate necessitating neutering.  Long (depressing) story short, the 'prostate problem' was a red herring that diverted attention from the actual problem (bladder cancer) for far too long .

 

So personally, I'd 'recommend' that adult male dogs in Thailand are neutered before they get oldish.

 

Re. bitches (again in Thailand) it's a bit easier as nobody wants an unwanted litter.  I was suprised though when an adopted, neutered female bled every month/now and again and was told by the vet it was due to the way the sterilisation had been performed .  Fortunately neutering techniques have improved and I don't have the same 'problem' with my two remaining () bitches.

 

As always, there will be advantages and possible disadvantages to neutering as all the experts argue amongst themselves.

[dick dasterdly]

On 1/1/2018 at 12:54 PM, wildewillie89 said:

I think the most important thing to do is just watch the dogs extremely closely (and have a good look at their waste). Early treatment for any problem is the most effective treatment. 

What should I be looking for in their waste?  Presumably worms?

 

I'd always assumed raw pork could result in less obvious parasites.

 

Meanwhile (thanks to you advice) having found a way to introduce eggs (including shell) into their diet - it's time to start on fish other than canned tuna.

[dick dasterdly]

Deleted as straying off topic.

[wildewillie89]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

You're going to have to translate (into laymans' terms) the second para. as I'm not an expert, and have no idea as to the meaning of ACL's or "dogs doing their knees".  (Thinking about it, possibly joint problems re. the latter?)

 

Relying on personal experience, I had one un-neutered male (as I always longed for a puppy from him ) but this turned into a problem when he developed peeing and crapping problems, which was first mis-diagnosed as an enlarged prostate necessitating neutering.  Long (depressing) story short, the 'prostate problem' was a red herring that diverted attention from the actual problem (bladder cancer) for far too long .

 

So personally, I'd 'recommend' that adult male dogs in Thailand are neutered before they get oldish.

 

Re. bitches (again in Thailand) it's a bit easier as nobody wants an unwanted litter.  I was suprised though when an adopted, neutered female bled every month/now and again and was told by the vet it was due to the way the sterilisation had been performed .  Fortunately neutering techniques have improved and I don't have the same 'problem' with my two remaining () bitches.

 

As always, there will be advantages and possible disadvantages to neutering as all the experts argue amongst themselves.

ACL stands for anterior crutiate ligament. Although in animals it is CCL or cranial cruiciate ligament from memory. Similar structures so a lot studies are done on dogs to benefit humans. Desexing significantly increases the likely hood of the ligament rupturing. Dog takes a good few months after surgery to move properly again, and then usually the other one goes as well. 

I think age is important. The window to help with mammary cancer seems to be doing the procedure before 2.5 years old. 

Around 2.5 years is also important in the sense that joints and bones should have formed already. Other than ligament issues, hip and elbow dysplasia risks are doubled with early desexing for the obvious reason that desexing increases height, longer bones, so naturally don't fit into sockets properly. Breeders now put in their contracts that the contract is void if owners desex before 2 years and the dog gets structural problems. 

For me, I think I just need to do a lot more research. Leave the ovaries in or take them out? Leave them in and risk mammary cancer, but feeling the dog and frequent check ups and getting it early gives a good prognosis. Take them out and increase risk of more serious cancers like bone cancer that usually requires amputation of a front leg. Wonder if they do vasectomies in Thai clinics for male dogs. 

 

[wildewillie89]

Went to my vet last night and had a long chat with him. Took some info and diagrams of the procedures I want done. He said the ovary sparing spay he can do, and understood the importance of taking out 100% of the uterus to prevent future infection caused by the ovaries (pyometra). Also will obviously have a search for cysts whilst he's down there. 

He also knew of the gastropexy (tacking the stomach to the abdominal wall), however, had not done one before. He told me to ring up Khon Kaen to see if they had the camera equipment (shorter recovery), otherwise he will research and contact his colleagues in Europe to discuss any finer details of it and just do a larger incision at the same time of the spay. So he was happy to lose the business of the spay/gastropexy by putting the recovery time of the dog first which was nice to hear. 

Vasectomy is not the norm, but also not a difficult procedure to do. Interestingly, he also stated that he had heard of the newer research and that especially for bigger dogs these procedures seemed to be the trend when talking with his overseas friends who are vets. He admitted Thai was very far behind the world in the way they do things.  

[MyFriend You]

On 1/3/2018 at 3:09 PM, wildewillie89 said:

A thought that just occurred to me was 'desexing'. What are people's positions on spaying and neutering? It seems more and more vets, not restricted by local laws, seem to be coming out advocating not to do it, or not until the dog has fully formed anyway. 

My female is about 20 months old now, so it is heading to the time where I am thinking about getting her done. On the flip side of that I was chatting to my sister the other day and got talking about how a few of our dogs back in Australia did their ACLs. I looked into it a bit and desexing significantly increases the likelihood of dogs doing their knees. 

Pyometra and breast cancer seem to be the two key points to desex for a female. However, recent studies have suggested a more aggressive form of cancer, bone cancer, is linked to desexing also (for bigger dogs). From my understanding, Scandanavian countries don't do it much unless a medical emergency (like Pyometra), so I am weighing up the options. Currently I am looking at taking the uterus out, but leaving the ovaries in to balance hormones, or if I don't then separating them during heat. 

For males, their seems to be no real benefit to having them done other than to stop unwanted humping/marking behaviour (I am assuming people have secured yards of course re roaming). As a big cancerous tumour in the genitals should be noted in the annual check up by the vet. Their is the old myth that it will help with aggression, but with males it seems to do nothing, and for females it may actually increase aggression. 

Just a different thought in terms of health, as where I come from dogs are done within the first 6 months of life so I haven't really ever looked into it. 

Growing up, our old country vet always told us - Females, let them have one litter then spay them, not having a litter causes them stress and "yearning for babies"  -  males, 8 months.

 

[csabo]

I have a soi lab and a pitbull who has very sensitive skin. The lab has literally the most beautiful coat of hair I have ever seen on a canine but I remember when it was falling out in clumps. The pit skin is notoriously a challenge and my Sugar will get allergic reactions if I don't take her diet seriously. I give them both nexguard spectra (this eliminated a tick problem and a tick larva problem that only affected my pit last year) and I was lucky to find Earthborn Holistic brand dog food as well. I get both from Lazada. Do your own research on Earthborn but it is grain free, loaded with meat meal and fruits and veggies. The Great Plains variety is the highest protein content and highly recommended for pits but it affected both dogs stools badly. I tried the Coastal Catch variety which is fish based and bingo. Sugar's hair is now shiny and thick and she scratches much less. I also give her human grade fish oil supplements to eat and use coconut oil and witch hazel on her dry itchy spots. I also occasionally put some coconut oil in their food.  Naturally they get some rice and sweet-potatoes and pork drippings and chicken and liver occasionally also.  Earthborn is NOT cheap at 3000 baht for a 12 kilo bag and it is wasted on the Lab as he could probably eat anything now and look good but I can't give Sugar a high grain product. So I give them what is the best available. 

 

 

[jak2002003]

Don't waste your money on these 'holistic' foods. There is zero evidence they are any good and the term 'holistic' is just a way to sell their brands and market them and charge a premium price.  Also feeding raw meat is messy and will cost more then the dry dog food.  Its inconvenient to handle the meat and clean up after too, although the dogs will like it just like they will eat anything else... and its not harmful to them.

 

My 2 dogs (and my 3 dogs in the UK) eat dry dog food (what ever is cheapest in the local animals feed shop).  They have no vaccinations (except when they were puppies).  I don't gradually mix in new foods, and I change foods a lot with no dogs getting upset stomachs.  

 

They are over 10 years old and still going strong with no health problems.

 

They also like to eat anything they find in the street and they are free range out here in the county.  This diet is bones, old curry and throw away food, rice, dead birds, chicken bones (from fried chicken) and other rotten stinking stuff,).. and a particular favourite of their is eating chicken poop or cow dung .  None of this has done then any harm in the slightest.

 

Again, I have never de wormed them (only when they were puppies).  

 

I never brushed their teeth (and they have great teeth and no smelly breath).   They are also the perfect weight, not fat and not skinny.  

 

The only thing I do use is a spot on flea and tick treatment.... as one time they got ticks in the house and got the tick liver disease.  I also bath them about twice a month if they get smelly from their doggy activities!  

 

Dogs are tough animals..... messing about with fancy diets, over vaccinating, over pampering them is not good for them.  

[wildewillie89]

The issue for many regarding dry dog food is, one, the bloat factor, and two, that most cheaper dry dog food is just filler carbs with a tiny bit of what the dog actually requires.

According to Purdue University, depending on the ingredients of dry dog food, chances of bloat can increase up to 320%. Raw and table food is generally seen as the safer option re bloat (depending on the size of the dog of course).

It is difficult, as many things need to be taken into account: lifestyle of dog, age, size, how old the breed is, genetics, allergies etc. I think it is only the last few years the raw diets have become popular, however, little mainstream research has gone into the health benefits of them (for obvious reasons). But mainstream research has gone into what diet components a dog needs, and massive intake of filler carbs isn't something a dog needs. So common sense kind of dictates what a dogs diet probably should consist of to make it the strongest it can be.

If someone's dog is the standard cross breed, non-working lifestyle and of no real size then chances are dry food may be sufficient. I used to feed our dogs dry when I was young as it was standard practice then. However, if purebred (more chances of medical problems), and bigger, then dry food being sufficient over a long period of time I would say would be more of a minority of cases. Personally speaking, dry food resulted in one of larger dogs dying from bloat so I wouldn't risk it after puppy hood. 

In the case of Thailand, it is that much harder as, yes, there are many diseases about. The vast majority of tick diseases though the dog should eliminate themselves naturally, or are easily treated. That is where I think the more balanced raw/table scrap diet might give an edge - as the dog is getting what it actually needs (rather than mostly carbs). 

[wildewillie89]

That is the beauty of research, they look at thousands of dogs. Unfortunately, our personal experiences only cover a handful of dogs so the numbers are stacked up against us. 

I haven't wormed since puppy hood. If the symptoms come up for worms then I will treat them accordingly. Preventative measures are fair enough if the risk is high though. 

I have no idea, but what vaccines do the travel guidelines actually require? I would have thought just core vaccines as non-core are non-core for a reason - they either do not work, are not serious illnesses (easily treatable). not endemic, or have more serious side effects. If the guidelines require just core then the vet should have the 3 in 1 and obviously rabies also. A good diet and antibiotics takes care of the non-core. 

I agree with the rest. Let the dog run, let them play, let them sort out their differences. More often than not the loud fights are the harmless ones, they only become harmful when people step in to stop them (I learnt the hard way lol). 

[wildewillie89]

31 minutes ago, Arjen said:

Further I have no idea what WE means with the often used term core vaccianation.  My dictionary does not help also. It should be much easier when you explain terms you use (DD also requested this) also on a way that people who do not read thousands of pages of scientifuc reaearch can understand, or at least have a small clue where you talk about. 

'WE'? My last response did not include the word 'WE'???

If you mean 'core vaccines', then they are just the vaccines that are recommended and sometimes required by law as the diseases can be fatal. So core vaccines are rabies, adeno, parvo, and distemper. They are the vaccines I would have thought the travelling guidelines required (and completely fair enough). 

'Non-core' vaccines are for diseases that are either self-limiting or treated very easily, so many vets now do not recommend (unless out to make some dollars). Some vets will give the scare campaign that some diseases are zoonotic, which is completely true, but that is also implying the vaccines actually work to help prevent them. Hence, they fall under the banner 'non-core', so not necessarily needed/recommended. 

The current thought regarding some non-core vaccines is depending on where you live you should think about giving them. However, that idea is being questioned now with further research into the vaccines, particularly the Leptospirosis one which has some serious side effects and doesn't always actually work (can give the disease it is preventing/also doesn't last the duration of the year). Not to mention, when I initially looked into the Lepto serovars in the area I live in Isaan (my area is endemic), the vaccine would only 'barely cover' 1 of the main 5 or 6 serovars from memory (there are over 200 in total but not all cause disease) , so to me, it really isn't worth it. 

There was a big story in the UK especially about it as many dogs died and in 2014 the European Medicine Agency requested 'warnings' to be attached to the vaccine so owners knew the risks. The WSAVA has also ruled Leptospirosis vaccines 'can be associated with adverse reactions'. The 7 in 1 is super risky here in Thai as they are all mixed together with Lepto. Yes convenient and easy, but dangerous. Why I suggest the 3 in 1 core if the travel guidelines allow for it. Especially as Lepto can be treated with anti biotics and has a positive prognosis (a healthy dog can eliminate it before it even shows symptoms). 

[wildewillie89]

1 minute ago, Arjen said:

I wrote wrong WE. I have tried to edit and change it to WW but auto correct continues change to WE 

 

Ok. Thanks for the long and good explanation. Please realise that not all ( I guess the most) here are native English. So sometimes we struggle a bit with the language.

 

Thanks again for the good explanation. It is really appreciated!

 

Arjen.

No worries. It is tough. Expats in Singapore also have issues with the 7 in 1 vaccine I have heard. No doubt other Asian countries also. The Asian market has flooded vaccines with 7 in 1. The WSAVA (World Health Organisation for pets basically), have already told Asia to have more vaccines available. The reason I think they keep the 7 in 1 is that you must do it annually, and vaccines make up around 14% of a vets income from memory. So if people started doing 3 yearly or longer vaccines like the West, then they will lose the money. Only one of my vets (the one I see regularly) in my province stocks the 3 in 1 so it is possible your vets will not have it anyway, unfortunately. One further point to remember is after the WSAVA investigation of Thailand, they found Thai vets had no knowledge of world vaccine trends and that Thai universities had not conducted any research into vaccines. So always remember, if the vet claims Thai research, he is lying. 

No worries about the language, you at least can speak another language. I barely speak one lol.

[dick dasterdly]

On 1/16/2018 at 12:00 PM, jak2002003 said:

Don't waste your money on these 'holistic' foods. There is zero evidence they are any good and the term 'holistic' is just a way to sell their brands and market them and charge a premium price.  Also feeding raw meat is messy and will cost more then the dry dog food.  Its inconvenient to handle the meat and clean up after too, although the dogs will like it just like they will eat anything else... and its not harmful to them.

 

My 2 dogs (and my 3 dogs in the UK) eat dry dog food (what ever is cheapest in the local animals feed shop).  They have no vaccinations (except when they were puppies).  I don't gradually mix in new foods, and I change foods a lot with no dogs getting upset stomachs.  

 

They are over 10 years old and still going strong with no health problems.

 

They also like to eat anything they find in the street and they are free range out here in the county.  This diet is bones, old curry and throw away food, rice, dead birds, chicken bones (from fried chicken) and other rotten stinking stuff,).. and a particular favourite of their is eating chicken poop or cow dung .  None of this has done then any harm in the slightest.

 

Again, I have never de wormed them (only when they were puppies).  

 

I never brushed their teeth (and they have great teeth and no smelly breath).   They are also the perfect weight, not fat and not skinny.  

 

The only thing I do use is a spot on flea and tick treatment.... as one time they got ticks in the house and got the tick liver disease.  I also bath them about twice a month if they get smelly from their doggy activities!  

 

Dogs are tough animals..... messing about with fancy diets, over vaccinating, over pampering them is not good for them.  

Agree entirely that dogs have a far hardier digestive system than us, but it's hard to believe that "what ever is cheapest in the local animals feed shop" is the best diet.

 

Dogs are naturally scavengers - and predators when working in a pack.
 

You'll have to work hard to convince me that a kibble diet is the best for their health....

 

10 years old is nothing for the average dog - although there are obviously certain breeds that have a shorter life-span.

 

Nobody's talking about a "fancy diet" - just the likely, best diet for our dogs.

[wildewillie89]

Kibble diets are more of a human convenience than any actual value to the dog. The more 'fancy' kibbles are much better than the cheap ones and they are so much more expensive for a good reason - better list of ingredients.

 

From what I've heard, vets don't do a whole lot of study on nutrition but there are obvious reasons that most don't stock the cheap or middle range stuff (mostly filler food).

 

Although in saying that, if a vet practice has more area dedicated to sales than actual examination rooms you know you need to change vets lol. 

 

Lifespan can be affected by many things; genetics, environment, lifestyle so it's a little more complicated. Various studies (funded by interest groups), will show different results. One study from Sweden showed dogs fed cheap kibble live 32 months shorter. The dogs seem healthy whilst young but then pick up degenerative diseases and age very quickly, whilst those fed homemade food aged slower.

[jak2002003]

2 minutes ago, Arjen said:

Not agree with this. We visit different vets. One of the best we visit looks more like a pet shop (he does not sell pets, but everythig around it he sells) then a vet. It is an older vet, and he has a lot of experience. His experience makes in our opinion that he is very often correct in his diagnoses, and prognoses. 

 

By the way, I recently had a cut in my leg what needed treatment in a hospital. They applied 12 stitches. I had to pay 210 Baht. And two days later we went with one of our dogs to the vet with a wound what did not stop bleeding. The vet applied two stitches. Invoice was 510 Baht....

 

Arjen.

Next time dress your dog up as a baby and take it to the hospital... just tell them farang babies are often hairy!

 

 

[wildewillie89]

2 hours ago, Arjen said:

Not agree with this. We visit different vets. One of the best we visit looks more like a pet shop (he does not sell pets, but everythig around it he sells) then a vet. It is an older vet, and he has a lot of experience. His experience makes in our opinion that he is very often correct in his diagnoses, and prognoses. 

 

By the way, I recently had a cut in my leg what needed treatment in a hospital. They applied 12 stitches. I had to pay 210 Baht. And two days later we went with one of our dogs to the vet with a wound what did not stop bleeding. The vet applied two stitches. Invoice was 510 Baht....

 

Arjen.

I dont understand the stitches reference. 

 

Older and experienced I would agree means something in the West, as they are also forced to keep up with the latest research and global trends (as the customers are usually educated also).

 

But seeing as the WSAVA found the majority of Thai vets do not keep up/follow global trends with even the most basic/routine visits then I would opt for a vet who has had (or has colleagues theyre in communication with) overseas study/work experience - usually, but not always, they are younger.

 

Of course, it is personal preference, and older vets will be able to deal with the more general issues. The more complicated issues require a lot of up to date knowledge though. If the focus is on a pet shop, rather than veterinary practice then the lack of research will rise it's head when it really matters.

 

Just ask about the best vaccine protocol in their opinion to find out If they up to date or not. If the vet can't read a translated WSAVA paper that even expats can get their hands on, then chances are they haven't bothered getting up to date with other veterinary related issues or choose to ignore them as money is more important. 

[dick dasterdly]

16 minutes ago, wildewillie89 said:

I dont understand the stitches reference. 

 

Older and experienced I would agree means something in the West, as they are also forced to keep up with the latest research and global trends (as the customers are usually educated also).

 

But seeing as the WSAVA found the majority of Thai vets do not keep up/follow global trends with even the most basic/routine visits then I would opt for a vet who has had (or has colleagues theyre in communication with) overseas study/work experience - usually, but not always, they are younger.

 

Of course, it is personal preference, and older vets will be able to deal with the more general issues. The more complicated issues require a lot of up to date knowledge though. If the focus is on a pet shop, rather than veterinary practice then the lack of research will rise it's head when it really matters.

 

Just ask about the best vaccine protocol in their opinion to find out If they up to date or not. If the vet can't read a translated WSAVA paper that even expats can get their hands on, then chances are they haven't bothered getting up to date with other veterinary related issues or choose to ignore them as money is more important. 

Agree entirely that the younger vets are more up to date, but disagree that a large pet product sales area automatically indicates a bad vet.

 

There is a v. young vet practice nearby, and the pet products sales area takes up a large proportion of the 'shop'.  They also have all the (I'd like to say 'common', but very few vets have anything close to up to date equipment) vet equipment facilities.

 

Personally, I don't use them as it's a 'business', with little compassion or caring.   Even so, I've no doubt that the young vet (owner?) is likely one of the best on Phuket.

[dick dasterdly]

Incidentally, I gather (long story) that distemper and parvo virus is rearing its ugly head on Phuket - so probably best to vaccinate our dogs again against these horrible diseases .

[wildewillie89]

Maybe I should have worded it better, I was going off the usual vets you will see in Isaan.

For example, there are a few vets in my city, but will look at 2 of them for an example. One clinic has 2 vets working in it and 1 employee. Within the shop maybe 70% of the space is dedicated to product, and 30% is dedicated to examination room. The 2 vets sell the products, the employee looks like she just cleans. Their vaccine prices are low, but any treatment is expensive. Majority of their income comes from sales it seems (as they miss out on a lot of income from xrays, complicated tests/surgeries etc).
 

The other clinic has 1 vet, and about 5 vet nurses with a permanent person at the front desk and cleaner. His sales are about 30% of the space, and has 2 examination rooms, xray, surgery rooms and cages out the back. His vaccines are more expensive but treatment cheaper. You will never actually see him in the waiting/sales room, only in the examination room or his office. 

I am fully aware not all vets would be bad vets just because they sell products, however, the structure of the clinic should be examined to see where the focus of the vet is, how many staff, if vet is trying to sell etc etc. 

[wildewillie89]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Incidentally, I gather (long story) that distemper and parvo virus is rearing its ugly head on Phuket - so probably best to vaccinate our dogs again against these horrible diseases .

When were they last vaccinated? 

 

 

1 hour ago, Arjen said:

I have this discussion often with my wife. An older vet, or doctor for people has a lot of experience. So they do not need to search what is wrong, They just treat, and very often correct. A young vet, (or doctor for people) is more aware from new techniques and insights, but lacks experience.

The fact that nearly all dog problems have similar symptoms, if the vet does not search then he is merely taking wild guesses. Treatment is similar for many of the diseases in Thailand so sure he may look like a genius. However, tick disease symptoms are exactly the same as cancers for example. So if he doesn't search, then the cancer will be picked up too late. 

[wildewillie89]

Took my 8 month old puppy in a short while ago as he was in pain, couldn't lay down or lower his head to eat. The vet said to us a dog came in yesterday with similar symptoms and it was a tick disease. But then he said that he knows our dogs are well treated/looked after so he doubts it is the same problem. He did the tick tests/full bloods to make sure and sure enough all were negative. 

He weighed the dog again himself as he couldn't believe the number the vet nurse had written. He then felt around the dog to see if their were any neck/spine issues. 

In the end it was growing pains (fast growing Mastiff). Was put on pain killers for 7 days and the very next morning he was as good as new and has been ever since. Interestingly enough, he also included a calcium supplement he imports from Europe to take for 2 weeks as he said no quality diet in the world has enough minerals for a puppy growing this fast. 

 

Very important to search and not just treat with dogs as symptoms are similar for every issue and dogs cannot communicate their symptoms to us obviously. In this case a course of anti-biotics would have been given for absolutely no reason by most Thai vets (just like they are unnecessary given to humans in Thai). 

[dick dasterdly]

21 hours ago, wildewillie89 said:

When were they last vaccinated? 

 

 

The fact that nearly all dog problems have similar symptoms, if the vet does not search then he is merely taking wild guesses. Treatment is similar for many of the diseases in Thailand so sure he may look like a genius. However, tick disease symptoms are exactly the same as cancers for example. So if he doesn't search, then the cancer will be picked up too late. 

My dogs were last vaccinated several years ago as they very rarely come into contact with unknown dogs - and so I wasn't concerned until learning that it's become a problem at the Soi Dog shelter, as a few recently rescued soi dogs carried the viruses.

 

Long story, but I recently contacted Soi Dogs re. a v. sick looking, horribly thin soi dog - and wondered whether he may have distemper.  The Soi Dog employee thought his problems were more likely due to an infestation of fleas and a likely tick-borne blood parasite infection.

 

She gave him a Bravecto tablet and left me tablets to give him daily.  She had the distemper/parvo virus vaccine in the van and offered to come to my house to vaccinate my dogs!  A much appreciated offer that I was happy to accept.

 

Once again I was reminded as to how much I appreciate the Soi Dog organisation. 

 

Back on topic - she also mentioned an annual vaccination against heart worms.  Apparently expensive, which is why it's not immediately offered by vets?  Does anyone know anything about this?

[jak2002003]

It might be better not to vaccinate our dogs at all and let the fittest survive to reproduce... which have natural immunity to disease.   Also stop breeding the weak genetically messed up pedigree dogs... which nearly all get hereditary diseases and its the norm to have expensive vet bill and heartache with them.

 

No one vaccinated the village mutts here.. and most are strong and fit.  Then see my neighbour with her pugs which can hardly breath and have recurring eye problems and vet bills, because they are genetic freaks.