Too Much Power For Pick-ups?

[soandso]

Too much power?

They may be wonderful fun to drive, but are overpowered pickups a growing threat to road safety in Thailand?

With great power comes great responsibility. It seems appropriate that pickup drivers in Thailand should bear this in mind when starting their monstrous engines. My concern is particularly about those who own the newer pickups, like the Toyota Vigo, Mitsubishi Triton, Ford Ranger and Mazda BT-50.

Each of these vehicles has an engine size of three litres and above. Each of them produces more than 350Nm of torque. That’s more than many performance cars produce, and these vehicles are common, everyday pickups. The big reason for concern is that none of these pickups has a stability-control system.

Vehicles with high torque ratings can be great fun to drive, but they can become deadly weapons in the hands of an inexperienced driver. And before getting a driver’s licence, many pickup drivers have about as much road experience as President Bush has in peace talks. So, the question arises, are Thai roads a safe place any more?

Higher torque means trickier driving in the rain. Putting your foot down too fast on slippery surfaces like gravel or tarmac covered with sand can leave you wrapped around a roadside tree or sloshing about in a klong.

Since all pickups are rear-wheel-drive, all that power from the engine can very easily cause the vehicle to spin out of control. This is unlike front-wheel-drive vehicles, which are likely to simply accelerate or keep spinning on the spot. (Yes, front-wheel-drive vehicles with lots of power are also dangerous, but not as much so as rear-wheel-drive vehicles.)

Where does the fault lie? It’s a matter of tossing a coin that has pickup manufacturers on one side and the government on the other.

First at fault are the pickup manufacturers for putting these products on the market. But that is the nature of business; make as much money as you can, no matter what the strategy. So when customers demand more power to shift their furniture from point A to point B at speeds that would daunt Michael Schumacher, they oblige.

Mitsubishi leads the engine-size department at 3.2 litres, but the torque race is won by the Ford Ranger and Mazda BT50 with a ridiculous 380Nm of torque. These pickups have torque figures so high that it’s only with great difficulty that you can move off in second gear – a technique common to Thai pickup drivers.

However, social responsibility appears not to be in the “best interests” of pickup companies. Selling pickups is, so the manufacturers give their customers what they want.

The manufacturers can argue that the extra torque is useful for off-roading. True, and some owners of 4WD pickups do actually use the extra performance. The problem arises when 4WD units are driven on the road. Their suspension is too soft to allow safe control at higher speeds, and pickups these days can reach silly speeds of 180kph to 200kph.

Turning the finger to the government, the most basic law to keep things safe on Thai roads is to ensure that drivers do not exceed 120kph – and that rule is rarely enforced. So law enforcement is at fault.

Another point of view suggests that when pickups are given more than 300Nm of torque, manufacturers should be obliged to equip them with electronic stability programs to prevent the rear wheels from spinning out of control. Yet another choice would be to cap the torque and horsepower ratings of these vehicles.

“The option of capping torque ratings is not a good one because it imposes a limitation on technology,” says auto critic Pattanadesh Asasapakkij.

“What we really need is strict law enforcement. Most pickups handle well at speeds up to 120kph. There is no need for new laws in Thailand, just ensuring that the old ones are being followed will suffice.”

Another option would be to make the process of obtaining a driver’s licence more strict. Currently, obtaining a driver’s licence in Thailand is easier than bribing a traffic cop. Drivers should need to go through stringent driving tests that measure their ability at high speeds, rather than judging them at parking-lot speed.

In the final analysis, responsible driving is the only way to make Thai roads a safer place. Drivers of these hugely powerful pickups must be careful about driving them in slippery conditions, especially in the rain.

The new Nissan Navara pickup – on the market this year – is said to have 403Nm of torque.

Safe driving, please!

Vijo Varghese

The Nation

[HDRIDER]

My one has 400 nm ,,, so what

a pick up with load need 350nm

[Plus]

Wait until they start putting these engines in cars. Imagine Jazz with 350Nm torque?

Any imported diesel car has more power than Thai pickups, so maybe demanding stability control and other active safety options as standard is the way to go.

Maybe they should stop demanding strict body-on-platform design for pickups.

[adad]

I won't say which one, but there is one of the mentioned manufacturers which cap top speed at 155 kph because ther tyre is not rated to go safely above that speed.

[Plus]

There are acutally two manufacturers... The main problem is applying too much torque in slippery conditions, I believe, and those two manufacturers offer the torquiest engines.

Wait until Nissan Navarra comes with the most powerful, most torquest engine for Thai pickups ever. Move over, 3.2l Triton, Nissan gets more from a 2.5l engine (size doesn't matter in this case).

[PeaceBlondie]

I'm a metrical dummy. How many foot-pounds is that many Nm? How many horsepower do these engines make? I'm thinking of the monster 3-axle Dodge Ram trucks, with a V-10 engine.

[Crossy]

I'm a metrical dummy. How many foot-pounds is that many Nm? How many horsepower do these engines make? I'm thinking of the monster 3-axle Dodge Ram trucks, with a V-10 engine.

Useful conversion factors here http://www.fleetwatch.co.za/Tw2006/info/conver.htm

400Nm = 295 Foot Pounds (did I get the calculation the right way round?)

Edited January 18, 2007 by Crossy

[Farma]

You got the conversion right Crossy.

These big engines are great when carrying the usual overweight loads I see on the highways. I still wonder why the bottom layers of watermelons aren't squashed.

I drive the new ford ranger at work and the power from the new engine is noticeable over my previous 3 year old model ranger. On occasions i've towed loads nearly 3 times the towing limit of 800 KG and I only thing i notice is braking needs some careful planning. I will add I'm not driving on public roads.

[bino]

I'm thinking of the monster 3-axle Dodge Ram trucks, with a V-10 engine.

I was thinking about that truck too, as well as a 1972 Ford F-250 with a 428 cubic inch V8 that was owned by one of my friends in high school.

His idea of fun was to go to the wreckers and buy a cheap set of tires, and fry them off until they popped, usually in the course of one evening. You could almost follow him around town / figure out where he had been by seeing the quarter mile long burnouts on the road.

That much power in the hands of a teenager was crazy enough- couldn't imagine it in the hands of a Thai youth!

[adad]

Another reason for massive torque is actually overloading/abuse that is so commonplace in Asia, and the lack of proper enforcement. The manufacturers I believe often have no choice but to step up to the customers' needs. One-tonners hauling up to three tonnes is an everyday occurence here in Thailand.

[PeaceBlondie]

I don't think your average Thai customer is buying these powerful, torque-filled motors. A few rich Thais, some farang - who else can afford those vehicles?

Okay, the examples we're quoting here are overpowered, but do they represent 1% of the vehicles on the road in Thailand?

[Gary A]

None of the diesel powered pickups here in Thailand are overpowered. Some are confusing torque and horsepower. Horsepower is what gives a vehicle the top speed. Maximum torque occurs are fairly slow (midrange) RPM's and maximum horsepower at very high RPM's. Torque is the main factor that allows the diesel pickups to haul loads way beyond what the truck was designed for.

Edited January 19, 2007 by Gary A

[PeaceBlondie]

I knew that, Gary, but I wasn't sure if there's a word overtorqued. I get torqued off. Old Harley's had lousy power, great torque.

My question is: how uncontrollable are these rear wheel drive pickups with monstrous torque, in real life? Who really needs to start off in second gear?

[Plus]

wait wait wait.

Torque and horsepower are very closely related, to the point of basically being the same thing.

HP=Torque X RPM. Multiply torque by revolutions per minute and you get horspower, divide horsepower by revolutions and you get torque.

Torque curve tells you how much power the engine produces at certain RPM. Turbo-diesel engines have a flat torque curve - torque stays the same from about 2,000 rpm till the redline. The Horsepower at 4,000 rpm would simply be double. That means the wheels can slip pretty much at any engine speed, as the applied force - the torque, would be the same.

Toyota Tundra pickup in the US has about double power to the local Vigo, I believe, and by US standrads all Thai pickups are woefully UNDERpowered.

One big difference that makes Thais worry is that US pickups are not that torquey - their gasoline engines get higher power from from higher RPM, not torque as Thai diesel engines can't spin faster than 4,000 rpm while gasoline engines can easily go to 6,000-7,000, nearly doubling the power output.

I also think that the US doesn't require pickups to be strictly "chassis on frame" design that puts limits on truck driving dynamics.

[Gary A]

The diesel engine makers are doing a great job at flattening out the power curve to better fit modern cars and trucks. Valve timing, turbos and the common rail fuel injection systems enable a lot of tinkering to allow the engine to perform for different uses. Different chips for modern engines are available for more torque or more power. BUT, everything is a compromise. Stationary applications are designed for maximum fuel economy so the power band is VERY narrow usually at a low RPM range for maximum engine life. These engines run at a constant speed within that narrow power band. That simply doesn't work well for automotive applications. I don't think there is such a thing as too much torque. Maximum torque for the pickup trucks is normally at average driving speeds or around 2,500 RPM. You can actually feel the power dropping off as the RPM's increase. With modern marine diesels you are asked how you will use the boat and the engine is tuned specifically for that use.

The small displacement gasoline engines don't have much power until you hit around 4,000 RPM. From 4,000 up to sometimes 7,000 they have tremendous power. Diesel engines rarely turn faster than 4,500 RPM flat out unless they are designed for racing.

[Plus]

I believe that it's turbos that flatten the torque, as gasoline engine with turbos have a similarly flat curve.

I disagree that Thai pickups lose power over 2,500 rpm. I've never seen a curve like that. Maybe marine diesels.

I think it was Honda Vtec that added more torque and power in higher rpm in mass cars first. Nowdays cars like Toyota have TWO torque peaks, their curve look like a saddle. First peak is in low to midrange rpms for city driving, and another pick starts at over 4,000 rpm to get the most total power from the engine. Honda usually has higher torque than Toyota close to redline, Toyota has higher torque at low RPMs. Hondas are said to be more linear in response to accelerator, Toyotas have a dead zone when nothing is happening at around 3,000 rpm.

[Morty]

I knew that, Gary, but I wasn't sure if there's a word overtorqued. I get torqued off. Old Harley's had lousy power, great torque.

My question is: how uncontrollable are these rear wheel drive pickups with monstrous torque, in real life? Who really needs to start off in second gear?

My isuzu with a 2.5 turbodiesel starts in second gear all the time

And btw.

It does a 130 km/h on a good day, so it's not a "high powered/high speed" car

and it's very controllable at those speeds

Edited January 19, 2007 by Morty

[undercover]

Yes these new powerful Diesels can be dangerous when driven by a certain type, But theres no going back to an old naturaly aspirated indirect injection perkins p4 so as to be safe.

[solent01]

Are we not missing the point here? Its not all about how much power bla bla bla..... But in who's hands or rather feet that power is being used, one simple answer would be to train the drivers properly, then test them to see if they make the grade, same as our own country......

Are the roads here now unsafe because of these high power pickups? Well, I don't think they have ever been safe, have they? But saying that, are any roads safe? Sh#t happens.

I for one want more power, I've got a Vigo 3.0 4X4, if the roads are that slippery that I have problems with oversteer (never happened yet without me making the rear step out) I can alway select all wheel drive.

My brother back in England has a derv. VW box van, don't know all the details model, HP etc. etc. but boy does that thing fly, it tops out some where near 140 mph, and pulls like a top end sports car..... Wow, I loved that thing.

[Rdrokit]

Just an observation. I have not seen a diesel pick up in Thailand with 'too much" torque. To put thinks in perspective I have a friend in the States that has a 2003 Ford truck with a 7.2 litre diesel engine that puts out 530 ft lbs of torgue from the factory and he has no trouble. He just put an after market chip in the truck and it has a Hi Performance setting that puts out over 800 ft lbs of torque. There is a warning with the chip that says do not tow in Hi Per setting. NOW THAT'S TOO MUCH TORQUE.

[Plus]

Thanks for putting some number on it. If only you could translate it in NM used in Thailand. 500 ft lbs is like what?

OK, 530 ft.lbs. equals 718.68 Nm - double that of Vigo.

That truck must be a lot heavier, though.

[Rdrokit]

Thanks for putting some number on it. If only you could translate it in NM used in Thailand. 500 ft lbs is like what?

OK, 530 ft.lbs. equals 718.68 Nm - double that of Vigo.

That truck must be a lot heavier, though.

Not sure what a Vigo weighs but the Ford truck weighs about 5300 lb (2409 kilos)

Edited January 25, 2007 by Rdrokit

[stingray]

I think the Pick Up Trucks are not overpowered overhere. I never bought a Pick Up Truck for my self, because they don't have V8 engines overhere.

[Plus]

Thanks for putting some number on it. If only you could translate it in NM used in Thailand. 500 ft lbs is like what?

OK, 530 ft.lbs. equals 718.68 Nm - double that of Vigo.

That truck must be a lot heavier, though.

Not sure what a Vigo weighs but the Ford truck weighs about 5300 lb (2409 kilos)

Half that - about 1,400 kg. Can't say that it evens it out eventually, but it looks close.

The question of too much torque has been raised quite a few times. I hope they make safety features mandatory rather than set a limit on engines.

[undercover]

I know what your saying about the American trucks and I am a big fan, I used to be a member of an American automobile club and have owned many American cars and trucks, here's the bottom line, what do we call them ? Yank Tanks, why ? because there as heavy as a battleship, my Cadilac elderado was 8.2 litre and put out an alarming amount of torque but many times I was pissed all over by some kid in a mark 2 Ford escort 1600cc.