Why Are You Even Here? The Surprising Attitudes of Some Expats in Thailand

[webfact]

Outback Australians grounded as pilot crisis worsens

By Jamie Freed

 

FILE PHOTO - Waiting passengers watch a Qantas Airways Boeing-737 aircraft being towed on the tarmac from the domestic terminal at Brisbane Airport in Australia, November 27, 2017. REUTERS/David Gray

 

(Reuters) - A recruitment drive by Australia's Qantas Airways Ltd after a seven-year hiatus is exacerbating shortages of pilots at regional air services that provide a lifeline to remote communities in the country's sparsely populated Outback.

 

As airlines from Asia, Europe and North America vie for pilots amid a global shortage, there is growing concern among people in Australia's vast interior who rely on flights to major cities for medical treatment.

 

Ewen McPhee, a doctor in the remote mining town of Emerald, said that when he referred patients for specialist care they often needed to travel nearly 1,000 km (621 miles) to the nearest big city, Brisbane.

 

"Then they have to fly," he said. "It is an 11-hour drive otherwise for an ill patient with quite a significant problem."

 

Over the last four months the 80-minute flights have not been as reliable as usual, McPhee said, with last-minute cancellations for lack of pilots.

 

Regional Australia's predicament illustrates the broader risks the aviation industry faces from a lack of pilots as the number of annual air passengers globally is expected to nearly double to 7.8 billion over the next 20 years.

 

Around the world, airlines will be forced to review the wages, training and conditions they offer younger pilots as they open new routes and pursue ambitious expansion plans.

 

Australia's pilot shortage closely parallels one in the United States, where major airlines are on a hiring spree and regional carriers like Seattle-based Horizon Air have cancelled hundreds of flights because of a lack of aviators.

 

Both countries have a culture of pilots paying up to $100,000 of their own money for training and flying for years at regional carriers on low pay to gain experience to be hired by major airlines.

 

To help fill in the gaps, the Australian government has reopened two-year visas for foreign pilots. Regional airlines however say longer visas are required to attract pilots from overseas.

 

Qantas began hiring again in 2016 after years of financial strife, during which it offered pilots leave without pay to work for other airlines. By mid-2018, it says it will have employed 300 new pilots, many from regional airlines.

 

Virgin Australia Holdings Ltd <VAH.AX> hired roughly another 120 pilots over the past year to fly major domestic and international routes.

 

HIGH COSTS, LOW PAY

 

While the Australian government offers loans of up to A$75,000 for students at select flying schools, trainee flyers still need tens of thousands of dollars from other sources to get their stripes.

 

Such costs are a major reason the number of student pilot licences issued annually has fallen 23 percent since 2006, according to official figures.

 

Once out of flight school, young first officers at relatively large regional carriers only earn about A$60,000 ($48,000) a year, while being based in high-cost cities like Sydney where the average house price is about $1 million.

 

"There is not a lot of incentive for smart young men and women to get into aviation," said Shane Loney, a Qantas pilot and vice president of the Australian and International Pilot Association.

 

"They have got a significant up-front cost to get qualified and then there isn't good pay unless they're fortunate enough to land a career with a big airline like Qantas or Virgin."

 

Unlike major Asian and European carriers such as Singapore Airlines Ltd <SIAL.SI> and easyJet plc <EZJ.L>, Qantas does not offer a cadet programme, although it partners with universities for its regional arm. Virgin, meanwhile, had 2,500 applications for 12 cadet spots last year.

 

Australia does not have a formal requirement for airline pilots to have 1,500 hours of flying experience like in the United States, but informally airlines want pilots with at least that number of hours for jets.

 

Even junior turboprop pilots in Australia usually have hundreds of hours, said Kirsty Ferguson, the founder of Sydney-based airline interview coaching firm Pinstripe Solutions.

 

"Australia is having the same gaps in regional flying as in the U.S.," she said.

 

GLOBAL CHURN

 

U.S. regional carriers like Mesa Airlines Inc and Skywest Inc <SKYW.O> are so short of pilots they are raising salaries, offering sign-on bonuses worth up to $50,000 and aggressively recruiting Australians and other foreigners eligible for visas. The U.S. Airline Pilots Association has said regional salaries are moving in the right direction.

 

In Australia, airlines with tight profit margins have not raised pay significantly despite pressure from unions, even as profits have recovered due to heavy cost-cutting.

 

At Regional Express Holdings Ltd (Rex) <REX.AX>, which operates 33-seat turboprops, former cadets are paying agreed penalties of more than A$25,000 to escape a seven-year contract to advance to better-paid jobs at bigger airlines.

 

Rex has seen a spike in turnover as bigger airlines recruit. It wants the government to open up four-year visas for pilots with a path to permanent residency, said Chris Hine, a senior Rex executive and chairman of its flying school.

 

High turnover is not limited to Rex. Qantas's regional arm QantasLink, which employs 400 pilots, hired more than 80 last year and expects to hire another 100 this year as pilots leave for bigger airlines, including Qantas.

 

Others are heading overseas to carriers such as Dubai's Emirates and Hong Kong's Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd <0293.HK> while the opportunities are available.

 

"It just follows the trend of cycles in aviation," Australian Federation of Air Pilots President David Booth, a Virgin pilot, said of the hiring rush.

"This one is a little bit worse than normal, but I don't think it is going to last forever."

 

($1 = 1.2544 Australian dollars)

 

(Reporting by Jamie Freed in Singapore; Editing by Stephen Coates)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-01-19

[ncc1701d]

It’s going to last a while. Estimates in China alone put demand at 5,000 pilots this year - and every year for 20 years. Demand in USA is the biggest it’s been in a long time. 

 

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2017-09-06/chinese-airlines-need-5000-pilots-year-next-20-years

[watcharacters]

 

 

I find this absurd.

 

It requires skills to fly a commercial jet but it is not the ultimate skill.   To suggest there  is a paucity of available pilots rings empty to me.   

 

Simply train qualified people.

[ncc1701d]

7 minutes ago, watcharacters said:

 

 

I find this absurd.

 

It requires skills to fly a commercial jet but it is not the ultimate skill.   To suggest there  is a paucity of available pilots rings empty to me.   

 

Simply train qualified people.

It costs around AUD $140,000 to train from scratch, a new pilot - and that’s just to get them to an absolute bare minimum standard as the junior most member on a flight deck of a commercial aircraft. And it will take a minimum of 12 to 15 months to get them to that standard. That’s assuming an airline will take you at those levels of experience which is extremely unlikely. You’re now going to have to go work you’re way around all sorts of smaller jobs to get that experience. Could take years more.

 

There’s simply not enough people out there that are willing to put in the time, effort and money to become a pilot - especially when the treatment of the profession over the years Including pay and lifestyle has deteriorated significantly. Why would anyone bother? (Not to mention that any one stumping up that amount of money - that’s still no gaurentee of a job - regardless of how desperate an airline is - you still have to make their grade)

 

The way pilots were treated by the hawk government in ‘89 to the way they are treated by senior managers like in RyanAir and Cathay Pacific - you’d have to be so in love with flying to be that blind to it all. 

 

Add to that, people think pilots sit there and do nothing or that it isn’t the “ultimate skill”, is just more ignorance from the general public.

[BEVUP]

50 minutes ago, ncc1701d said:

It costs around AUD $140,000 to train from scratch, a new pilot - and that’s just to get them to an absolute bare minimum standard as the junior most member on a flight deck of a commercial aircraft. And it will take a minimum of 12 to 15 months to get them to that standard. That’s assuming an airline will take you at those levels of experience which is extremely unlikely. You’re now going to have to go work you’re way around all sorts of smaller jobs to get that experience. Could take years more.

 

There’s simply not enough people out there that are willing to put in the time, effort and money to become a pilot - especially when the treatment of the profession over the years Including pay and lifestyle has deteriorated significantly. Why would anyone bother? (Not to mention that any one stumping up that amount of money - that’s still no gaurentee of a job - regardless of how desperate an airline is - you still have to make their grade)

 

The way pilots were treated by the hawk government in ‘89 to the way they are treated by senior managers like in RyanAir and Cathay Pacific - you’d have to be so in love with flying to be that blind to it all. 

 

Add to that, people think pilots sit there and do nothing or that it isn’t the “ultimate skill”, is just more ignorance from the general public.

Was that Hawke who sacked all the Pilots or was it something else 

Anyhow serves them right

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, watcharacters said:

 

 

I find this absurd.

 

It requires skills to fly a commercial jet but it is not the ultimate skill.   To suggest there  is a paucity of available pilots rings empty to me.   

 

Simply train qualified people.

It's like a lot of trades these days of fund yourself, costs too much for the individual, unless they put themselves in debt for decades, and the return when they do get a job isn't good enough to make it worthwhile.

Very easily solved if the government provides free training, with an obligation to work for the government for a number of years after qualifying, or like it used to be with apprenticeships, on the job training, paid at student rates. That's how I learned qualifications in 2 different trades.

 

Question is if the government is prepared to step up, or let the outback people die if they get sick.

[watcharacters]

12 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's like a lot of trades these days of fund yourself, costs too much for the individual, unless they put themselves in debt for decades, and the return when they do get a job isn't good enough to make it worthwhile.

Very easily solved if the government provides free training, with an obligation to work for the government for a number of years after qualifying, or like it used to be with apprenticeships, on the job training, paid at student rates. That's how I learned qualifications in 2 different trades.

 

Question is if the government is prepared to step up, or let the outback people die if they get sick.

 

 

 

 

The military in some countries is also a source for pilots.

 

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, watcharacters said:

 

 

 

 

The military in some countries is also a source for pilots.

 

 

 

 

I don't know how many air force pilots there are in Australia, but being a low population country with a small airforce, I doubt it's enough to make a difference.

 

What apparently does not seem to be under discussion, which seems strange to me, is that the huge expansion of air travel must be contributing to "man made climate change" is seen as a "good" thing.

IMO the money would be better spent on a fast rail system that reaches outback towns. Train drivers don't cost that much to train and don't need to go into debt to become one.

[BEVUP]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I don't know how many air force pilots there are in Australia, but being a low population country with a small airforce, I doubt it's enough to make a difference.

 

What apparently does not seem to be under discussion, which seems strange to me, is that the huge expansion of air travel must be contributing to "man made climate change" is seen as a "good" thing.

IMO the money would be better spent on a fast rail system that reaches outback towns. Train drivers don't cost that much to train and don't need to go into debt to become one.

A very good job due to as they advance in their levels they would probably get as much or if not more then a pilot 

[thaibeachlovers]

59 minutes ago, BEVUP said:

A very good job due to as they advance in their levels they would probably get as much or if not more then a pilot 

When I moved to the UK to work, I was foolish not to go work as a tube driver. I would have earned far more as a train driver, had free travel in London and had way more holidays.

By the time I wised up, I was too old to get the job.

[ncc1701d]

On 1/19/2018 at 8:52 PM, BEVUP said:

Was that Hawke who sacked all the Pilots or was it something else 

Anyhow serves them right

Serves who right? 

 

Bob Hawke (who failed at becoming a pilot), decided to allow the illegal move to get the air force to fly commercial aircraft and allow scabs from overseas to also operate Australian registered aircraft - also illegal. It ultimately caused the downfall of both TAA (turned into “Australian Airlines and absorbed into QF), and especially Ansett, the airlines simply couldn’t recover from treating their pilots so poorly. Now the same thing is happening again and everyone can’t figure out why. 

 

As as for who serves who right - you either believe pilots were being treated unfairly or you believe Bob hawke wasn't a lackey of Ables and Murdoch.

[BEVUP]

1 hour ago, ncc1701d said:

Serves who right? 

 

Bob Hawke (who failed at becoming a pilot), decided to allow the illegal move to get the air force to fly commercial aircraft and allow scabs from overseas to also operate Australian registered aircraft - also illegal. It ultimately caused the downfall of both TAA (turned into “Australian Airlines and absorbed into QF), and especially Ansett, the airlines simply couldn’t recover from treating their pilots so poorly. Now the same thing is happening again and everyone can’t figure out why. 

 

As as for who serves who right - you either believe pilots were being treated unfairly or you believe Bob hawke wasn't a lackey of Ables and Murdoch.

Serves Australia right from sacking all the pilots & bringing others in, it has finally caught up with them

[Basil B]

On 19/01/2018 at 12:00 PM, ncc1701d said:

It costs around AUD $140,000 to train from scratch, a new pilot - and that’s just to get them to an absolute bare minimum standard as the junior most member on a flight deck of a commercial aircraft. And it will take a minimum of 12 to 15 months to get them to that standard. That’s assuming an airline will take you at those levels of experience which is extremely unlikely. You’re now going to have to go work you’re way around all sorts of smaller jobs to get that experience. Could take years more.

 

There’s simply not enough people out there that are willing to put in the time, effort and money to become a pilot - especially when the treatment of the profession over the years Including pay and lifestyle has deteriorated significantly. Why would anyone bother? (Not to mention that any one stumping up that amount of money - that’s still no gaurentee of a job - regardless of how desperate an airline is - you still have to make their grade)

 

The way pilots were treated by the hawk government in ‘89 to the way they are treated by senior managers like in RyanAir and Cathay Pacific - you’d have to be so in love with flying to be that blind to it all. 

 

Add to that, people think pilots sit there and do nothing or that it isn’t the “ultimate skill”, is just more ignorance from the general public.

Not an answer to address the short term problem, but if Australia were to invest in a world class commercial pilot training collage, along with a visa that would allow international wannabe pilots to work while learning to fly and hours building before going onto commercial pilot training may address the problem in the long term.

 

The problems of poor pay and conditions in the smaller and budget airlines has been going on for years, it is a worldwide problem even in the USA where I recall a accident was attributed to flight crew unable to afford hotels and thumbing lifts on overnight cargo flights thereby being fatigued even before the flight started. 

 

Thing is after RyanAir in the UK and other airlines having problems the boot is now on the foot of the pilots...

Edited January 21, 2018 by Basil B

[Scott]

Troll post removed.   It is not a fake news story.   Continue and face a suspension.   Comment if you want, but remarks about the type of story are not welcome.  

[ncc1701d]

8 hours ago, Basil B said:

Not an answer to address the short term problem, but if Australia were to invest in a world class commercial pilot training collage, along with a visa that would allow international wannabe pilots to work while learning to fly and hours building before going onto commercial pilot training may address the problem in the long term.

 

The problems of poor pay and conditions in the smaller and budget airlines has been going on for years, it is a worldwide problem even in the USA where I recall a accident was attributed to flight crew unable to afford hotels and thumbing lifts on overnight cargo flights thereby being fatigued even before the flight started. 

 

Thing is after RyanAir in the UK and other airlines having problems the boot is now on the foot of the pilots...

There are some already. Adelaide’s parafield airport has a college and Cathay Pacific send their cadets there. I believe there may be a few other airlines also sending cadets there, not sure which ones. BA and QF used to, maybe some Chinese airlines now and maybe some middle eastern ones.

 

There used to be one in tamworth for Ansett, but doubt that’s still running at capacity for many airlines. The problem here is that when airlines did pay well, there were young keen people thinking that the investment - although high, was worth it because a long term career in a good airline would offset the initial outlay. Airlines have taken advantage of kids having a dream of becoming pilots at all costs and are now reducing conditions and pay so much that when you actually look at being able to afford it, they realize they can make more money in a different industry and just pay to have fun learning to fly on weekends. 

 

Edit - I Believe the Australian government has relaxed work permits / visas for foreigners wanting to come to Australia to work and fly. So all the better experienced pilots are leaving QF etc to earn more in China and Middle East to make more money, pilots from places like Cathay after being disillusioned and lied to for years are trying to get back to Australia and all the new pilots will Be from Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and turkey.

Edited January 22, 2018 by ncc1701d

[thaibeachlovers]

Back in the 80s, when government decided to scrap apprenticeships and other such like in hospital training, in favour of people paying to learn, it was obviously a bad idea, but being ideological, rather than based on common sense, it went ahead. Has come back to well and truly bite our society on the bum, as it destroyed any loyalty to country and replaced it with "follow the money". If one country won't pay enough, no doubt another will, and it ends up with situations like Australian pilots going elsewhere, to be replaced by, perhaps, less skilled pilots prepared to work for less, but more than wherever they came from.

Was seen, somewhat dramatically, when Britain cancelled hospital training for nurses, and nurses moved to the US for higher wages. Also, far fewer British people became nurses, and the NHS had to attract nurses from poor countries to fill the gap.

Edited January 22, 2018 by thaibeachlovers