ชี้นก

[tgeezer]

I was browsing in my สำนวนไทย chapter of my วรรณคตีวิจักษ์ ม5 and came upon these. 

ชี้นกปลายไม้ ก. หวังในสิ่งที่อยู่ไกลตัว

ชี้นกเป็นนก ชี้ไม้เป็นไม้. ไม่ว่าผู้มีอำนาจว่าอย่างใดผู้น้อยก็ต้องคล้อยตามไปอย่างนั้น 

My interlocutor rejects the former, which I notice can occupy the place of a verb, as out of date and something never said, whereas he explains the latter for example, as believing anything which your girlfriend wants you to believe. 

 

Ignoring a Thai native’s opinion I tried this ไม่มีวันที่เขาจะมีความพอใจ เขาชี้นกปล่ายไม้เสมอ  (intransitive use of the verb phrase) 

It was understood as someone not looking at things around him but rather looking at what he can’t have, with the ‘but’ ไมีมีคนไทยใช้ ! 

How can we use the second? 

I suppose that in the context of talking about what is going on in a third person’s life, you just throw in ชี้นกเป็นนกชี้ไม้เป็นไม้ and everyone understands. That would be a true คำพังเพย . 

Can people ask around and say how they see the situation? 

 

 

 

[tgeezer]

The option to edit is gone so correction. คติ should be วรรณคดีวิจักษ์ I don’t write that word often; คติ and  คดี seem so close in meaning. 

[bannork]

http://www.สํานวนไทย.com/ชี้นกเป็นนก-ชี้ไม้เป็นไม้/

There are a couple of sentences in the above link using the phrase. In the first one the writer just uses 'he' before launching into the phrase. It seems to be a very relevant phrase for Thai culture, just agreeing with everything the boss says because afraid to disagree or want to suck up yo gain some benefit.

You could try it on your better half tgeezer for some fun- ผมก็ได้แต่ชี้นกเป็นนก ชี้ไม้เป็นไม้ เพราว่าคุณที่ผมรักเสมอถูกต้องเรื่องทุกสิ่งทุกอย่างตสอดเวลา

http://www.สุภาษิต.net/ชี้นกเป็นนกชี้ไม้เป็นไ/

That's a different meaning to believing everything the girlfriend says, in these links the subordinate seems to be just paying lip service to the boss, agreeing to protect himself , not necessarily agreeing because he believes him.

Has the meaning expanded?

 

[tgeezer]

I don’t know much about everyday speech bannork, what I do is ask a native to see if my interpretation is correct and if I am not satisfied then I try it here to see if a non native can see my point. 

ชี้ meaning to point out the thing which you want to have rather than simply to point is the interpretation I get from ชี้นกปล่ายไม้ explained as  หวังในสื่งที่อยู่ไกลตัว  which I was told คนไทยไม่ใช้  

Whether the saying is in common use or not that meaning seems to fit ชี้นกเป็นนกชี้ไม้เป็นไม้  >Whatever he wants he gets, whatever he says goes etc. 

Seen like this I think that I can understand the examples in your links . 

I can try to put them into English but then I lose any relationship to the Thai words.  ๑So because the situation is one of fear of him ชี้นกเป็นนก ฯ (“whatever he says goes”) the country....ถึงได้ย้ำแย่ลงทุกวันนี้ reached get grip worsen down every day these. 

Translation; Because of fear of him ชี้นกเป็นนกชี้ไม้เป็นไม้ the country becomes more in his grip daily. 

 

Do you think that I have the gist of it?  

 

 

There are some good ones in the second example about teachers.

พอเขตพื้นที่ว่าอย่างไร เราก็ได้แต่ ชี้นกเป้นนก ฯ 

The teachers are seen as getting their way accepted by the students, telling them what is within the areas of what can be said was enough (พอ)

Perhaps I am slow to realise that the reason people have left the forum is because  we reach a point where we are no longer capable of explaining why we understand or perhaps don’t understand but are happy in our ignorance.  

 

Incidentally, the second link; this is not a สุภาษืต. 

 

 

 

[bannork]

We could use the meaning or use an idiom, ie the former- Because of fear of him obseqiuousness and fawning have led the country into the pitiable state it is in today. 

Because of fear of him, whatever he wants, he gets, whatever he says, goes, leading the country into its present ruinous state.

I dont see where you get the idea of being in his grip from - I just see a comment on the poor present state of  the country though no doubt the 'yes' men are taking the country downhill.

The second sentence I would translate as In the past we were very worried our school would not pass the accredition. Every part of the school would just do what it was told to do. So teachers didn't really teach because they were fully occupied getting documents ready for the accreditation. 

• ก็เพราะเอาแต่กลัวเขา ชี้นกเป็นนก ชี้ไม้เป็นไม้ บ้านเมืองถึงได้ย่ำแย่ลงอยู่ทุกวันนี้
• ในสมัยก่อนโรงเรียนเรากลัวมากที่จะไม่ผ่านการประเมิน พอเขตพื้นที่ว่าอย่างไร เราก็ได้แต่ ชี้นกเป็นนก ชี้ไม้เป็นไม้ ครูเลยไม่ได้ทำหน้าที่สอนเต็มที่เพราะมัวแต่ทำเอกสารรับการประเมิน

[tgeezer]

 

Because of แย่ and ลง it is fair to assume that the main verb is not good, down trodden better, but then I don’t want to get into Thai words with English definitions. 

This is what I was trying to say in my last post, I am not up to putting Thai into acceptable English because I don’t have the equivalent words.  The forum becomes like a ‘book club’ which if you have ever attended one without a teacher guiding, can be bedlam.

The clause is บ้านเมืองถูกได้ย่ำแย่ลง ,   What does บ้านเมือง mean;  country. In this piece I see it as the people, they are the ones who cannot follow their own pursuits, they are the thralls, ผู้ถูครอบงำทางจิตใจ they are in his grip. 

Leaving that aside lest you lose interest, I am more than willing to accept any word which works to get the gist of the piece. 

 

I made of the next one a ‘complete horlicks’.  

You could have pointed out and I should have noticed the jargon, เขตพื้นที่ must be personified in order for them to ว่าอย่างไร.  พอ เขาว่าอย่างไรเรา ก็ ต้องทำ except the saying has been inserted. 

I have to make เราก็ได้แต่ ‘we get only’ into ‘it is a case of’. 

 

I feel that there is too much here and that the saying has been ‘shoe-horned’ in where it could have been left out. 

 ไม่ว่าเขตพืนที่ว่าอย่างไรเราก็ได้ต้องคล้อยตามไปอย่างนั้น ครู่เลย........ tells the story adequately I think. 

If we were desperate to use it how could we? 

ในสมัยก่อนโรงเรียนเรากลัวมากที่จะไม่ผ่านการประเมิน ชี้นกเป็นนกชี้ไม่เป็นไม่ ครูเลยก็ไม่ได้...... or  should the saying be the preamble would that be wrong considering that  คำพังเพยคือถ้อยคำที่กล่าวกลาง ๆ เพื่อให้ตีความเข้ากับเรื่อง  

 

Now to contradict myself and because I have eventually found a word which suits my parlance! In the context of not being able to teach fully I would call เอกสารรับการประเมิน ‘paperwork’ . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bannork]

'They were fully occupied with paperwork for the accreditation' would be a good translation I agree.

[tgeezer]

Now I have lost interest!

[Sweet memory 80s]

I've never heard or read "ชี้นกปลายไม้" in the past 35 years period but this idiom is easily understood. Thais simply say simple descriptive compound words like "ไม่พอใจในสิ่งที่ตนมีอยู่" or "ทะเยอทยาน,ทยานอยาก" or " ใฝ่สูง(เกินตัว)"