เอาเลยครับ

[aanon]

I have a friend who, when invited to eat something, will often say:

"เอาเลยครับ"

for him, it's a casual way of saying

"ไม่เอาครับ"

or if you ask him "กินอะไรมาบ้างรึยัง?"

he might say something like "เออ...เปล่าครับ, กินมาม่า...."

i was also told a while back that it's customary to say, before giving presents to kids:

"(ลุง)ไม่มีอะไรจะให้นะ......" and then to produce the present.

so much so that saying "(ลุง)ไม่มีอะไรจะให้นะ......" and then actually not producing a present was used as a comedy routine.

sure, there's nothing uniquely thai about all this, but i wonder if you've noticed any other examples of saying the opposite of what you mean (apart from just being polite).

ps. and who would have guessed that ใช่ว่า means "it is not the case that..."

[meadish_sweetball]

I have a friend who, when invited to eat something, will often say:

"เอาเลยครับ"

for him, it's a casual way of saying

"ไม่เอาครับ"

Very interesting examples again aanon!

I always, probably incorrectly now that I think about it, took "เอาเลยครับ" to mean something like "No, you go ahead!", as if "เอา" was the imperative...

or if you ask him "กินอะไรมาบ้างรึยัง?"

he might say something like "เออ...เปล่าครับ, กินมาม่า...."

Hmm, I've never heard this one before. Could it be that he doesn't consider มาม่า to be something substantial, or does he use it even if he's had a 6-course dinner with desert?

One thing I've thought about myself is the expression ค่อยยังชั่ว meaning 'I feel better' or 'That's better' - it is hard to see the relation of the words to each other here, and how this expression was initially created.

[aanon]

I have a friend who, when invited to eat something, will often say:

"เอาเลยครับ"

for him, it's a casual way of saying

"ไม่เอาครับ"

Very interesting examples again aanon!

I always, probably incorrectly now that I think about it, took "เอาเลยครับ" to mean something like "No, you go ahead!", as if "เอา" was the imperative...

or if you ask him "กินอะไรมาบ้างรึยัง?"

he might say something like "เออ...เปล่าครับ, กินมาม่า...."

Hmm, I've never heard this one before. Could it be that he doesn't consider มาม่า to be something substantial, or does he use it even if he's had a 6-course dinner with desert?

One thing I've thought about myself is the expression ค่อยยังชั่ว meaning 'I feel better' or 'That's better' - it is hard to see the relation of the words to each other here, and how this expression was initially created.

i feel the same way about "เอาเลยครับ" now that i think of it, it is quite like "got for it!" as in "you go for it, don't worry about me". nonetheless, it's still a source of great fun between us that "เอาเลยครับ" means, in effect "ไม่เอาเลยครับ" (though not as strong as that) and i've seen more than one thai person have to stop and think about whether he wants any food or not!

as for the "เออ...เปล่าครับ, กินมาม่า...." thing, he'd use it even if he'd had a big meal with actual nutritional value. or, for example, if he'd been to the post office, the mechanics, to visit a friend and then back home, and you asked him whether he'd been out, he'd still say เปล่าครับ in his answer.

i can see how it might translate as "oh, nothing really, just some mama" or "oh, nowhere really, just the post office, the mechanics and my friend's place". i suspect he appreciates and enjoys the กวนตีน aspect of it though.

ค่อยยังชั่ว....hmm...don't know either. ค่อย seems to be here in its 'gradually/slowly' usage, i wonder if ยัง once meant 'to lessen'? all speculation though.

[Rikker]

I guess everyone learner must wonder about ค่อยยังชั่ว at some point. I've wondered about it, but never looked into it. Your posts inspired me to do a little digging.

ค่อยยังชั่ว can be first broken down into ค่อย and ยังชั่ว, the ค่อย part being a diminutive element giving the meaning "gradually" or "a little."

RID defines ยังชั่ว as ค่อยดีขึ้น, so unless they are not being very precise in their definitions, then the ค่อย meaning is already encoded somewhere within ยังชั่ว. I'll come back to that.

Matichon gives a similar definition, and an example from พระอภัยมณี by that most beloved of Thai poets สุนทรภู่. And since พระอภัยมณี was composed over the course of 20 years (roughly the 1820s-1840s), that makes the expression at least 160+ years old, though I don't think there's reason to believe it wasn't already an established phrase by the time the poem was written, since it doesn't appear to be used as if it were a novel expression. Here's the quote: ถ้าแก้ไขให้นางไปค้างป่า ให้ล่วงหน้าไปเสียบ้างจะยังชั่ว. This is out of context, and I don't really know the story, but if anyone can offer further explanation of the quote, that would be nice. Loosely rendered, it appears to mean something like, "If (you) resolve things to have the lady stay overnight in the jungle, and do it sooner rather than later (she) will improve." Thai is so multitudinous in its possibilities of meaning, I am probably way off in my interpretation, since I can't even be sure who's talking to who and about who.

Now back to ยังชั่ว. If RID is correct that there is already a sense of gradualness in the phrase, then I think ยัง must be meant in the sense of สู่, "to, toward," as in ไปยังบ้าน "go to the house." And if ชั่ว means ระยะ (although this is still not entirely satisfying to me), then it might be an understood abbreviation of a larger expression, meaning something like "moving toward the period that things will be better." And adding ค่อย just reinforces that it's only a little better, not quite there yet.

What does everyone think?

[aanon]

I guess everyone learner must wonder about ค่อยยังชั่ว at some point. I've wondered about it, but never looked into it. Your posts inspired me to do a little digging.

ค่อยยังชั่ว can be first broken down into ค่อย and ยังชั่ว, the ค่อย part being a diminutive element giving the meaning "gradually" or "a little."

RID defines ยังชั่ว as ค่อยดีขึ้น, so unless they are not being very precise in their definitions, then the ค่อย meaning is already encoded somewhere within ยังชั่ว. I'll come back to that.

Matichon gives a similar definition, and an example from พระอภัยมณี by that most beloved of Thai poets สุนทรภู่. And since พระอภัยมณี was composed over the course of 20 years (roughly the 1820s-1840s), that makes the expression at least 160+ years old, though I don't think there's reason to believe it wasn't already an established phrase by the time the poem was written, since it doesn't appear to be used as if it were a novel expression. Here's the quote: ถ้าแก้ไขให้นางไปค้างป่า ให้ล่วงหน้าไปเสียบ้างจะยังชั่ว. This is out of context, and I don't really know the story, but if anyone can offer further explanation of the quote, that would be nice. Loosely rendered, it appears to mean something like, "If (you) resolve things to have the lady stay overnight in the jungle, and do it sooner rather than later (she) will improve." Thai is so multitudinous in its possibilities of meaning, I am probably way off in my interpretation, since I can't even be sure who's talking to who and about who.

Now back to ยังชั่ว. If RID is correct that there is already a sense of gradualness in the phrase, then I think ยัง must be meant in the sense of สู่, "to, toward," as in ไปยังบ้าน "go to the house." And if ชั่ว means ระยะ (although this is still not entirely satisfying to me), then it might be an understood abbreviation of a larger expression, meaning something like "moving toward the period that things will be better." And adding ค่อย just reinforces that it's only a little better, not quite there yet.

What does everyone think?

hey rikker,

you make a good argument, although it doesn't quite sit right to me that ยังชั่ว would be talking about heading for a time of something better, but the important 'something better' part would be omitted.

at the same time, i can think of something strikingly similar that happens in English:

"If [you can do x and y], you will be well on your way"

(it's understood that you'll be on your way to success).

let me have a go at this lateral thinking exercise and put an alternative hypothesis (admittedly entirely without evidence).

ค่อย(gradually)ยัง(towards)ชั่ว(bad, evil)

stringing it together, the idea is that one is going only gradually towards the bad. that's got to be better than rushing headlong towards the bad!

and, is it possible that the entire ค่อยยังชั่ว was in use by the great poet's time and that he was omitting the first word?

[Rikker]

I agree that it's not an entirely satisfying account, and I've been looking around the internet for somewhere that explains it. No luck yet.

Here's an alternate explanation that just occurred to me: It might be an intentional misstatement--stating the opposite of the truth, in an attempt to ward off evil spirits, hexes, etc. from hearing that you're feeling better and redoubling their efforts to harm you.

This seems a bit silly in a modern context, but we already know this expression is at least 200 years old, and we have a similar (though now somewhat uncommon) precedent in Thai: calling a young child น่าชัง when you really mean น่ารัก, because you don't want the evil spirits or demons to hear that your baby is cute, because they will want to come snatch it away. Nowadays it's most commonly heard together as น่ารักน่าชัง.

When Sunthorn Phuu was writing, there was no significant contact with the West yet. Catholic missionaries first visited Thailand in the 1500s, but the first American missionaries didn't arrive until 1833, and they brought Western medicine (and other technologies) with them. So prior to this period, I imagine that understanding of what caused suffering and illness was limited, and still commonly attributed to spirits and demons and things. If the expression developed in this way, it could have become a fixed expression that has survived in the modern language, despite its inherent illogicality.

This is a much more satisfying explanation to me. Any thoughts?

[meadish_sweetball]

The second one sounds plausible, it actually struck me before as well that this might be it. When I asked GF she said 'Yes, I guess that's possible.' She doesn't have a clue either as to the origins.

Either way, both your posts were interesting to read Rikker - thanks a lot for making the effort.

[Rikker]

It's a linguistic mystery.. good for the brain, fun to think about. Though I suspect the answer is already out there somewhere waiting to be found.

This is why we need a good etymological dictionary of Thai, to gather the collective wisdom together. I have lots of small books that deal with the origins of Thai words and phrases, each with perhaps a 100 words or phrases. The Royal Institute website has a lot of these articles, too. It's all just way to scattered. It's a relatively popular topic among Thais, because there are several book series: ภาษาไทยไขขาน, ภาษาไทย ๕ นาที, ภาษาของเรา, ภาษาไทยวันละคำ, ภาษาคาใจ, and other books that aren't part of a series like ภาษาไทยนอกจอ, มองภาษาไทยในแง่มุมของภาษาศาสตร์, etc. I enjoy books like this that explain the origins of Thai words, even if some of it is just guesswork, but I also want to get to work on consolidating it all!

In time, in time.