Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[billd766]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Each to their own opinion.

 

Voters now say they would reject a referendum on leaving by 55 per cent to 27 per cent – a 28 per cent gap in favour of the EU.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-denmark-poll-eu-referendum-consequences-a8286296.html

 

A pity it is mostly about Denmark and written in a pro remain newspaper that gives it the slant against Brexit. Nothing like a bit of bias to keep stirring the pot.

[dunroaming]

Just popped in to see if this thread is still delivering good quality debate over Brexit ().  Seems to be business as usual so no point in me sticking my oar in.

 

Keep speculating gentlemen, less than a year to go now before we actually know where we are going to end up.

 

[Justfine]

Maybe by 2020 they will finalise it.

[Chomper Higgot]

39 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Just popped in to see if this thread is still delivering good quality debate over Brexit ().  Seems to be business as usual so no point in me sticking my oar in.

 

Keep speculating gentlemen, less than a year to go now before we actually know where we are going to end up.

 

Or to put it another way, the UK government, the Brexit leaders, the minister for Brexit or any of the supporters of Brexit have any idea at all where they taking the country or what will be there on arrival.  

[dunroaming]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Or to put it another way, the UK government, the Brexit leaders, the minister for Brexit or any of the supporters of Brexit have any idea at all where they taking the country or what will be there on arrival.  

I used to ask how people thought we would be better off after Brexit.  Never got a reply but that is only to be expected as none of us know what Brexit is going to deliver.  They were right not to respond and I have stopped asking the question because it is unanswerable.

 

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

A pity it is mostly about Denmark and written in a pro remain newspaper that gives it the slant against Brexit. Nothing like a bit of bias to keep stirring the pot.

Oh come on, it's an interesting piece. Jumping on everything that doesn't agree with you just weakens your position.

 

Just like the UK, the Danes adopted optouts leaving them on a sweet spot. 

 

Brexit is an own goal, an appalling act of self harm. I assure you that the mass of Brexiters will be worse off.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Grouse

[aright]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Or to put it another way, the UK government, the Brexit leaders, the minister for Brexit or any of the supporters of Brexit have any idea at all where they taking the country or what will be there on arrival.  

Not sure but we know where the EU is headed and its not a good place. 

[The manic]

Nobody voted for a political union. We voted for a 'common market'.

[Denim]

4 minutes ago, The manic said:

Nobody voted for a political union. We voted for a 'common market'.

A common market is still a good idea and even many brexiters would agree.

 

A federal Europe , where our say in our own affairs is overridden by bureaucrats we did not elect is something we did not ask for.

[The manic]

1 hour ago, Denim said:

A common market is still a good idea and even many brexiters would agree.

 

A federal Europe , where our say in our own affairs is overridden by bureaucrats we did not elect is something we did not ask for.

Yes indeed. I think uncontrolled, riotous immigration from the French ports was a factor the last, straw.  No, Christians, No Yazidi, women but many bearded men who had colluded with, criminal trafficking gangs paying them a fortune to seek asylum when they already had it. Protected by the idiot free movement of people idiocy. 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Denim said:

A common market is still a good idea and even many brexiters would agree.

 

A federal Europe , where our say in our own affairs is overridden by bureaucrats we did not elect is something we did not ask for.

Try reading this

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union

 

then we can discuss sensibly 

[StreetCowboy]

55 minutes ago, The manic said:

Yes indeed. I think uncontrolled, riotous immigration from the French ports was a factor the last, straw.  No, Christians, No Yazidi, women but many bearded men who had colluded with, criminal trafficking gangs paying them a fortune to seek asylum when they already had it. Protected by the idiot free movement of people idiocy. 

Boat chandlers in Calais.  Remember, you get the best investment tips on TV.

[aright]

45 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Try reading this

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union

 

then we can discuss sensibly 

Yes lets discuss it sensibly. Any liberal democracy, at its heart has to be representative, transparent and accountable. Its the only way to confer legitimacy and authority on a government.

How does the EU measure up to these tenets?

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

Today's Financial Times (FT) had an interesting article all should read if you haven't yet.

The FT is very much pro-EU but the article outlines the Remoaners last hope and where we are in the process of leaving.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/98a2c89a-37ef-11e8-8b98-2f31af407cc8

 

I read the whole thing (which is not always available unless you subscribe).

The conclusion I came to, which the article doesn't actually state but points directly to, is pretty obvious:

The EU are resigned to it and the UK is now too far down the line to make a U-Turn without a mandate and a 2nd Referendum has been ruled out by both the government and opposition.

The only alternative Remoaners have is to abandon normal Party Politics at the next General Election (May 2022) and win it with a majority on a "Remain Ticket" with an all Pro-EU candidate party.

You could get Tony Blair or Neil Kinnock to lead it.

If of course if they win, the process to rejoin the EU can begin, and negotiations will start again.

 

I don't see the point of further argument for a couple of years.

 

 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

22 hours ago, Grouse said:

And time for the UK to come to our senses and stop this Brexit idiocy!

Read the pro-EU Financial Times report...

(Sorry,  the link in my last post [#3137] sends you to "subscribe".)

The idiocy is in the Remoaners camp as the game is up.

The UK is democratic, unlike the EU.

Cheers, G

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, aright said:

Yes lets discuss it sensibly. Any liberal democracy, at its heart has to be representative, transparent and accountable. Its the only way to confer legitimacy and authority on a government.

How does the EU measure up to these tenets?

Read the attachment. I know it's dry and boring but it does explain the situation well. Certainly the system could be improved/simplified/clarified but it is democratic

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Read the attachment. I know it's dry and boring but it does explain the situation well. Certainly the system could be improved/simplified/clarified but it is democratic

Just like the appointment of this guy last month.

Martin Selmayr has been appointed Secretary-General of the Commission, the organisation that monitors whether countries are sticking to EU rules, dreams up new laws and runs the Brexit talks day-to-day.

From the BBC website (another pro-EU organisation).

Stop making excuses.

 

[Grouse]

Just now, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Just like the appointment of this guy last month.

Martin Selmayr has been appointed Secretary-General of the Commission, the organisation that monitors whether countries are sticking to EU rules, dreams up new laws and runs the Brexit talks day-to-day.

From the BBC website (another pro-EU organisation).

Stop making excuses.

 

I agree with you

 

This is an appalling example 

 

Improvements ARE essential. I've been saying this from day one. My position has always been On BALANCE, we should stay and force through changes. I think the timing is now ripe with all that has happened in the last two years. I think Macron is good; pity we don't have anyone of his calibre. Frankly I feel quite disenfranchised 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

22 hours ago, Slip said:

 

Fact is you don't know any more than he does, but you still preach 'remoan' and 'fear'.

The article was written by Zoe Williams in the pro-EU Grauniad.

You need to study this subject a little more before you comment!

Game is over anyway...

[nontabury]

16 hours ago, nauseus said:

Thanks Bill.

 

To qualify, I'm sure that he meant more than 50% of British voters who could be arsed to vote, voted for Brexit.

 

This hair-picking is repetitive, boring and old. 

Very,very boring.

[nontabury]

13 hours ago, sandyf said:

Each to their own opinion.

 

Voters now say they would reject a referendum on leaving by 55 per cent to 27 per cent – a 28 per cent gap in favour of the EU.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-denmark-poll-eu-referendum-consequences-a8286296.html

You do like posting articles from the Independent. Why not mention articles from other newspapers, which state that 65% of British people now support Britexit.

Edited April 4, 2018 by nontabury

[Airbagwill]

The battle against brexit is a battle with the hard right.It seems that many Brexiteers are in denial about this ... Racists protesting they aren't racist (a sure sign that they are) and sadly many who are failing to recognise the hard right before it is tooa late.....

"There are fascists pretending to be humanitarians like cannibals on a health kick eating only vegetarians" -  Roger McGough 

 

 

[Airbagwill]

4 hours ago, nontabury said:

You do like posting articles from the Independent. Why not mention articles from other newspapers, which state that 65% of British people now support Britexit.

Perhaps you would care to cite these hapless journals yourself?

Or are you concerned that some may find the quality of your sources risible?

[Airbagwill]

5 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Just like the appointment of this guy last month.

Martin Selmayr has been appointed Secretary-General of the Commission, the organisation that monitors whether countries are sticking to EU rules, dreams up new laws and runs the Brexit talks day-to-day.

From the BBC website (another pro-EU organisation).

Stop making excuses.

 

BBC is getting proudly criticised for being pro Brexit.

[aright]

13 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Perhaps you would care to cite these hapless journals yourself?

Or are you concerned that some may find the quality of your sources risible?

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/do-you-agree-that-the-uk-economy-will-be-permanently-damaged-by-leaving-the-eu-or-that-even-if-there-is-a-short-term-economic-hit-the-uk-economy-will-be-back-to-business-as-usual-within-a-couple-of-3/

[aright]

5 hours ago, Grouse said:

I agree with you

 

This is an appalling example 

 

Improvements ARE essential. I've been saying this from day one. My position has always been On BALANCE, we should stay and force through changes. I think the timing is now ripe with all that has happened in the last two years. I think Macron is good; pity we don't have anyone of his calibre. Frankly I feel quite disenfranchised 

I think you are saying we should support the EU for what it could and should be rather than what it is and does. One of the greatest mistakes in politics is to judge something by its intentions rather than its outcomes.

For over 40 years Britain has urged the EU to accept fundamental reform. Our failure to convince them resulted in a Referendum which voted to leave the EU. We accepted the EU wanted a different path.

 

Edit I forgot Mr Macron.....I am not as comfortable with him as you seem to be. Either way whatever his vision is it will only be realised on German terms.

Edited April 5, 2018 by aright

[Orac]

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/do-you-agree-that-the-uk-economy-will-be-permanently-damaged-by-leaving-the-eu-or-that-even-if-there-is-a-short-term-economic-hit-the-uk-economy-will-be-back-to-business-as-usual-within-a-couple-of-3/

The problem with this poll is it does not ask the question “do you support Brexit” or “how would you vote if if there was another referendum” which is an odd one to miss off unless you were looking to mislead people with the overall result of your survey.

Personally I would have voted for getting on with it as I think there should never have been a referendum in the first place and this should be the task of parliament to decide what is right for the country along with the decision to move forward with the current governments Brexit plan, change the plan to include remaining in the Customs Union or remaining fully in the EU - they also retain the right to request the advice of the people by holding a further referendum though I do think this would be a bad idea.


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[aright]

18 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

The problem with this poll is it does not ask the question “do you support Brexit” or “how would you vote if if there was another referendum” which is an odd one to miss off unless you were looking to mislead people with the overall result of your survey.
 

My take on it is if two thirds of the British people want the government to get on with Brexit, that is significant and an acceptance that another referendum isn't required/necessary.

Edited April 5, 2018 by aright

[Orac]

My take on it is if two thirds of the British people want the government to get on with Brexit, that is significant and an acceptance that another referendum isn't required/necessary.

 

Not necessarily - a further referendum is not required/necessary because we are a parliamentary democracy so that is where the decision should reside.

 

Some of us wish the government would get on with Brexit because the idiots triggered the Art 50 without a plan in place and therefore started the clock ticking - it is important that we discover what options truly are available to us through negotiation with the EU so that this whole business can be put to bed to some degree, one way or the other, rather than the ridiculous strategy they seem to be working on at the moment which seems akin to jumping off a cliff/burning the bridge without a future plan regarding our future relationship being in place.

 

 

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[aright]

24 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

Not necessarily - a further referendum is not required/necessary because we are a parliamentary democracy so that is where the decision should reside.

 

 

Parliamentary democracies are there to serve the will of the people and there is no greater will than a referendum because the result is a direct result of their will. This will is further strengthened by a poll which says 65% of the people want them to get on with it. To overturn it or ignore it would be political suicide.