Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[CG1 Blue]

Yesterday I watched David Davis facing the Lords EU select committee.  The lords (and baronesses) surrounded Mr Davis, and challenged him on the following:

 

• The text of the withdrawal agreement and the timeline for agreement
• The Government's position on a customs union with the EU
• The Government's proposals for avoiding a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland
• The future relationship between the UK and the EU

Mr Davis gave a great account of himself, and all the interrogators seemed satisfied with his responses.

 

The whole thing renewed my confidence in the process after the recent debacles with the Lords.

 

For those of you in denial that Brexit is going to happen, I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed. If you don't believe me I suggest you find a replay of this event, and then air your view.

 

 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

So, I contend that many of us go through socialist or even anarchistic stages during our formative years.

 

I like the French broad minded tolerance. 

 

I was not insulting you; rather reminding you that we do foolish things in our youth. Do you recall the riotous demos of the sixties? 

 

I think the ability to demonstrate is a good thing. The insurance will cover it. What was your opinion of the recent Occupy Wallstreet demos? They do have a point!

I didn't personally go through such a stage, although a couple of my  friends did. While they signed on the ‘sausage roll’ and sat about all-day smoking Afghani black and Leb red, I went to work at fifteen years of age in a London wholesale fruit & vegetable market; it would not have been beneficial to take a sense of entitlement into such a working environment.

 

I like France and the French people and have many friends in different parts and still spend time there.

 

I have no problem with peaceful demonstrations, the right to demonstrate is a democratic cornerstone of any civilised society; however, what really bothers me about your comment is that you seem to think it is okay to set fire to and destroy other peoples property, as long as they are insured, oh, and that the carnage is caused by anti-capitalist thugs (demonstrators)  “The insurance will cover it” … did you really say that ??

[Grouse]

25 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

I didn't personally go through such a stage, although a couple of my  friends did. While they signed on the ‘sausage roll’ and sat about all-day smoking Afghani black and Leb red, I went to work at fifteen years of age in a London wholesale fruit & vegetable market; it would not have been beneficial to take a sense of entitlement into such a working environment.

 

I like France and the French people and have many friends in different parts and still spend time there.

 

I have no problem with peaceful demonstrations, the right to demonstrate is a democratic cornerstone of any civilised society; however, what really bothers me about your comment is that you seem to think it is okay to set fire to and destroy other peoples property, as long as they are insured, oh, and that the carnage is caused by anti-capitalist thugs (demonstrators)  “The insurance will cover it” … did you really say that ??

I've not seen the damage done. I will look into it and revert. However a bit of physical damage is no big deal as long as nobody I seriously hurt

 

I have NEVER taken any kind of drugs except ethyl alcohol.

 

I left uni at 21.

 

I respect your overall stance. Let's keep the dialogue open!

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

Think I'm still an anarchist at heart - was in the Workers Revolutionary Party when I was at college!

I like the French attitude too - maybe that's why I live there half the year .

You might want to have your heart checked. The WRP were never, ever anarchists.

[SheungWan]

4 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

Since when did Brexiteers have a PhD in pragmatism?

 

4 hours ago, Jip99 said:

Ever since they successfully voted “Leave”.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

On 5/1/2018 at 3:14 PM, Eloquent pilgrim said:

I haven't read the link (my drivel software filter does not allow me to access the Guardian) but from what you have written, this must be an appallingly pretentious article, class discrimination of the highest order.

 

It obviously implies, or states, from what you have said, that well educated people voted to remain and that anyone voting to leave was of  “low income and education levels’ ….. and without any sense of irony, you have underlined it and written it in red, how crass.

 

However, I was not aware that the electoral register, contained details of everybody's average educational attainment, median income and social class. I must update my details immediately, they only have my name, address, national insurance number and DOB. These details would of course be necessary as well as knowing exactly how each individual voted in the referendum to establish any verifiable demographic as to the education, income and social class of any voter.

Maybe they bought the info from InstaGoogFaceTwit...?

It is just statistics built on other statistics and defined by algorithms.

 

 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

8 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

Thanks Bill,

You really know your stuff on this subject.

[sandyf]

23 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

You're missing the point.  The Irish border is a very special case, and can be resolved. There are already intelligence led border controls on the island of Ireland. Add to that some innovative technology (and the UK has some of the world's best innovators), and you get a sufficiently controlled border.

Or we agree a free trade and customs deal with the EU, which removes the need for tariffs and customs checks. Then you have the Trusted Trader scheme.

 

The point you missed is that the EU are being obstructive and inflexible on Ireland, and IMO this is to destabilise the Brexit process.

 

They should not be using such a sensitive issue to further their own ambitions.

So in your view the EU should agree to a plan that does not exist, as I said, brexiteers do not know what they want.

 

"Theresa May will go back to the drawing board to find a post-Brexit customs compromise to unify her cabinet, after ministers could not agree what approach to take."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-customs-union-arrangement-theresa-may-cabinet-a8333516.html

[CG1 Blue]

19 minutes ago, sandyf said:

So in your view the EU should agree to a plan that does not exist, as I said, brexiteers do not know what they want.

 

"Theresa May will go back to the drawing board to find a post-Brexit customs compromise to unify her cabinet, after ministers could not agree what approach to take."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-customs-union-arrangement-theresa-may-cabinet-a8333516.html

I can't speak for all brexiteers, but I know what I want.  I want us out of the EU - full stop. If we end up with a half hearted exit to begin with, fine. Hopefully we can further detangle ourselves over the years to follow.

 

Please don't bother using links form the Independent or Guardian. Biased news sources are pointless on this forum.

 

On Ireland the EU should get UK and Ireland representatives locked away in a room for however long it takes to agree on the solution.

What I dislike is the way Ireland is being used almost as blackmail - in an attempt to force the UK to remain in the CU (meaning we can't negotiate our own trade deals, and would still be under the ECJ)

 

[aright]

41 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I can't speak for all brexiteers, but I know what I want.  I want us out of the EU - full stop. If we end up with a half hearted exit to begin with, fine. Hopefully we can further detangle ourselves over the years to follow.

 

Please don't bother using links form the Independent or Guardian. Biased news sources are pointless on this forum.

 

On Ireland the EU should get UK and Ireland representatives locked away in a room for however long it takes to agree on the solution.

What I dislike is the way Ireland is being used almost as blackmail - in an attempt to force the UK to remain in the CU (meaning we can't negotiate our own trade deals, and would still be under the ECJ)

 

The UK has made a number of proposals which the EU have rejected out of hand, without compromise. It is clear the EU is weaponising the Irish Border in an attempt to thwart a Brexit Agreement.

The Irish Border has become a political issue in the same way the Upper House is trying to engineer a political crisis over Brexit.

Time to Mogg-Up and leave the table taking the financial settlement with us.

[CG1 Blue]

13 minutes ago, aright said:

The UK has made a number of proposals which the EU have rejected out of hand, without compromise. It is clear the EU is weaponising the Irish Border in an attempt to thwart a Brexit Agreement.

The Irish Border has become a political issue in the same way the Upper House is trying to engineer a political crisis over Brexit.

Time to Mogg-Up and leave the table taking the financial settlement with us.

Imagine Mogg replacing May for these final stages. Never going to happen, but we can dream!

[Eloquent pilgrim]

21 hours ago, Grouse said:

I've not seen the damage done. I will look into it and revert. However a bit of physical damage is no big deal as long as nobody I seriously hurt

 

I have NEVER taken any kind of drugs except ethyl alcohol.

 

I left uni at 21.

 

I respect your overall stance. Let's keep the dialogue open!

Grouse, old bean, I am concerned. I respect everybody's right to any political affiliation or opinion, as I do their right to be pro or anti the UK leaving the EU. I willingly engage in exchanges about these issues, but accept them as diversity of opinion; however, adherence to law and order, are for me, sacrosanct to the fundamentals of a civilized society, completely irrespective of political beliefs; this is, and always will be, a non negotiable stance from my viewpoint.

 

When a well organised mob embarks on such a rampage, burning cars, and shops that have inhabitants in flats above them, there is no guarantee whatsoever that people will not be injured or killed. I am therefore alarmed that a man such as yourself, who appears to me to have a good measure of intellectual quotient, is prepared to give his political persuasion primacy over the rule of law, and support these actions (as long as nobody is seriously hurt)  If a man like you can have such views, then heaven help us  ….. I despair, I really do.   

[Eloquent pilgrim]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

So in your view the EU should agree to a plan that does not exist, as I said, brexiteers do not know what they want.

 

"Theresa May will go back to the drawing board to find a post-Brexit customs compromise to unify her cabinet, after ministers could not agree what approach to take."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-customs-union-arrangement-theresa-may-cabinet-a8333516.html

As a common courtesy to any posters that may be colour blind, would you kindly refrain from highlighting words in red, as they may not be aware of how important they are.

 

I would also appreciate it if you would refrain from posting links form the (comic)ally named Independent …… many thanks to you (*∆°)

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

Imagine Mogg replacing May for these final stages. Never going to happen, but we can dream!

Or Magog. Results would be similar.

[tebee]

If we ever get to those stages - time is running out and we still have no idea what we want 

 

So, is this right? 23 months after referendum, 14 months after A50 triggered & 9 months after options first proposed in HMG position paper, the Cabinet is still discussing its negotiating position on the UK’s post-Brexit customs relationship with the EU? #tempusfugit

 

https://twitter.com/BBCJLandale/status/991611501751554048

[CG1 Blue]

34 minutes ago, tebee said:

If we ever get to those stages - time is running out and we still have no idea what we want 

 

So, is this right? 23 months after referendum, 14 months after A50 triggered & 9 months after options first proposed in HMG position paper, the Cabinet is still discussing its negotiating position on the UK’s post-Brexit customs relationship with the EU? #tempusfugit

 

https://twitter.com/BBCJLandale/status/991611501751554048

Yes, that's right.  The primary reason for all the delays has to be the highly powerful and richly funded campaign by the Remain supporting elite to overturn the result of the referendum. We now have the Lords doing their bit to further delay the process and further damage our negotiating position.

 

How can the UK side possibly move forward at pace with all that holding them back?

 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

If we ever get to those stages - time is running out and we still have no idea what we want 

 

So, is this right? 23 months after referendum, 14 months after A50 triggered & 9 months after options first proposed in HMG position paper, the Cabinet is still discussing its negotiating position on the UK’s post-Brexit customs relationship with the EU? #tempusfugit

 

https://twitter.com/BBCJLandale/status/991611501751554048

Do you believe that posting your comment in huge typeface will somehow add some form of credence to your views, or are you relying solely on the blue font to give you the ‘wow’ factor

[Kieran00001]

 

24 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Yes, that's right.  The primary reason for all the delays has to be the highly powerful and richly funded campaign by the Remain supporting elite to overturn the result of the referendum. We now have the Lords doing their bit to further delay the process and further damage our negotiating position.

 

How can the UK side possibly move forward at pace with all that holding them back?

 

 

 

All that democratic process in the way, kind of ironic coming from a Brexiteer.

 

[aright]

15 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Do you believe that posting your comment in huge typeface will somehow add some form of credence to your views, or are you relying solely on the blue font to give you the ‘wow’ factor

I think EP it's an eye condition, called hyperopia, that affects Remainers.

Its got something to do with having sight but no vision.

[CG1 Blue]

5 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

 

 

All that democratic process in the way, kind of ironic coming from a Brexiteer.

 

The Lords are not democratically elected. Nor are Soros and all his rich influential cronies.

[Kieran00001]

13 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

The Lords are not democratically elected. Nor are Soros and all his rich influential cronies.

 

You don't really get it, Soros is free to fund campaigns, that is an essential part of democracy.  The Lords are not democratically elected, no, but they are a part of our democracy, they are also a part of the sovereignty that you voted to return.

[CG1 Blue]

14 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

Soros is free to fund campaigns, that is an essential part of democracy

I wouldn't call it an 'essential' part of democracy. I'd call it an unfortunate element within a democracy.

[StreetCowboy]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

I wouldn't call it an 'essential' part of democracy. I'd call it an unfortunate element within a democracy.

If you can't buy votes, what's the point of money?  Next you'll be saying people can't sell  their blood, their organs, their children

[Jip99]

2 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

If you can't buy votes, what's the point of money?  Next you'll be saying people can't sell  their blood, their organs, their children

 

 

You do do have an interesting slant on life.

[StreetCowboy]

14 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

You do do have an interesting slant on life.

That's my inclination.

[tebee]

2 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Yes, that's right.  The primary reason for all the delays has to be the highly powerful and richly funded campaign by the Remain supporting elite to overturn the result of the referendum. We now have the Lords doing their bit to further delay the process and further damage our negotiating position.

 

How can the UK side possibly move forward at pace with all that holding them back?

 

But wouldn't it have been a much better idea to decide what we wanted from Brexit before invoking article 50? Then we wouldn't be under the time pressure we are now. 

[tebee]

2 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Do you believe that posting your comment in huge typeface will somehow add some form of credence to your views, or are you relying solely on the blue font to give you the ‘wow’ factor

It's copy and paste which ends up as rich text on this forum 

[CG1 Blue]

23 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

If you can't buy votes, what's the point of money?  Next you'll be saying people can't sell  their blood, their organs, their children

My parents made me sell an organ, many years ago. They were sick of me playing Chopsticks over and over again

 

Sorry

[Jip99]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

But wouldn't it have been a much better idea to decide what we wanted from Brexit before invoking article 50? Then we wouldn't be under the time pressure we are now. 

 

 

It it would have been better to have had that BEFORE the referendum.

 

Cameron couldn’t deliver that so the choice was a simple in or out.....with the majority opting for out.

 

Just imagine how much bigger that majority could have been if Brexit could have been clearly defined.

[Jip99]

1 hour ago, StreetCowboy said:

That's my inclination.

 

 

About 45 degrees I would say......