Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, transam said:

Yet the UK DOES take care of Thais who have paid sod all with your contributions...

And more to the point, the U.K. takes care of Many E.U. Nationals, who also have never made any contributions.

 But thinking about it, I have to disagree with your comment regarding Thais.

This is because when a Thai ( not a tourist or Student)enters the U.K.they do so in the knowledge that they are not entitled to Any government financial support, or free access to the NHS. They must pay a fee upfront in order to obtain NHS treatment. Failure to pay this fee(insurance) would result in their not obtaining a VISA.

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, HAKAPALITA said:

What baffles me is this Vote thing. You have had one, so why another because you cant stand by the first. Are the Babies to want another 10 till they get their own way.?.

I think it is because the 'victory' wasn't overwhelming, a 4% win isn't conclusive if 48% are disenfranchised. A 70% vote for leave would be end of story. The public is now better informed than before the referendum and more people would vote. What are the brexiteers worried about ? maybe a second referendum would produce a decisive leave vote, or do they fear that a majority would rather remain now ?

[soalbundy]

Just now, nontabury said:

And more to the point, the U.K. takes care of Many E.U. Nationals, who also have never made any contributions.

 But thinking about it, I have to disagree with your comment regarding Thais.

This is because when a Thai ( not a tourist or Student)enters the U.K.they do so in the knowledge that they are not entitled to Any government financial support, or free access to the NHS. They must pay a fee upfront in order to obtain NHS treatment. Failure to pay this fee(insurance) would result in their not obtaining a VISA.

EU states also take care of UK citizens abroad and there are more than you think.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

1 hour ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

So many expats in Thailand like to pontificate about what sh^^hole the UK has become and talk the country down

I don't, I never have and I never will; but that's the problem when you categorise people, you often cast a shadow over the wrong individuals 

[CG1 Blue]

6 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I think it is because the 'victory' wasn't overwhelming, a 4% win isn't conclusive if 48% are disenfranchised. A 70% vote for leave would be end of story. The public is now better informed than before the referendum and more people would vote. What are the brexiteers worried about ? maybe a second referendum would produce a decisive leave vote, or do they fear that a majority would rather remain now ?

I'm curious to know why you even care about this, after your last comment:

 

"Nothing wrong with that, each to his own. I knew when I was 21 that I couldn't continue to live in the UK, it bored me to death and I left permanently for Germany, the rest of my family left for Australia. I have lived in Thailand for the last 13 years since my retirement, I'm happy here, Thailand's troubles don't bother me here in the sticks, for me it is far better than the UK, I am 70 now so the UK is a distant memory, rather like a foreign country that I once visited but wouldn't want to go back to."

 

 

 

[soalbundy]

22 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

"I hope your Brexit highlands will be worth it which you wish for from afar - I fully expect my state pension to be means tested when I get to 67 (10 years off ) because that's just facing the reality of the dire economic situation we are in and which Brexit will exacerbate."

 

And there goes another remainer, pretending they can predict the future. Just over 10 years ago the world was ticking along nicely, then all of a sudden markets collapsed, banks folded, and the financial world changed forever.

 

We live on such an unpredictable, ever changing planet.  What makes you think you know the net outcome of all the economic positives and negatives over the next 10 years? What makes you think staying in the EU would insulate the UK from negative impacts over the next 10 years? If the EU collapses in the next 10 years, do you think the UK would be better off out or in?

 

At least Brexiteer aspirations are real, measurable and predictable. Out of the EU means control of our own borders, fisheries etc., no ECJ power and no laws made from Brussels, plus freedom to make our own global trade deals.

 

 

 

 

Our borders, our fisheries, our trade deals ? You have a say in all this do you, aside from making a cross once every 4 years you have no say unless you can afford a lobbyist which those who really are in power can, it all goes over your head but it's nice to pretend.

[nontabury]

7 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I think it is because the 'victory' wasn't overwhelming, a 4% win isn't conclusive if 48% are disenfranchised. A 70% vote for leave would be end of story. The public is now better informed than before the referendum and more people would vote. What are the brexiteers worried about ? maybe a second referendum would produce a decisive leave vote, or do they fear that a majority would rather remain now ?

I have to agree with you,the public is better informed, they now  see how the Bureaucrats in Brussels are arrogant mini dictators, who are afraid of losing the U.K’s financial contributions,and are worried sick in case an independent U.K is successful, as this could encourage other countries to leave this so called Union.

 

 

[beautifulthailand99]

I think it's fair to say that all of us that can find time to chew the cud on a forum will have sod all influence over what is going to happen and as others have said the lobbyists, big money and the like will overtly or covertly get the result they want. May's job is to make it look like the No vote is being respected. I'm close to not caring anymore , que sera sera. I've stopped arguing with my close family up north who voted leave and I would probably find most of you here agreeable company if we kept off this subject in person. Battle fatigue and concentrating on the things you can influence are getting more important. Hats off to both sides on here at their stamina and resoluteness though 437 pages in nobody seems to have changed sides. 

[soalbundy]

7 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I'm curious to know why you even care about this, after your last comment:

 

"Nothing wrong with that, each to his own. I knew when I was 21 that I couldn't continue to live in the UK, it bored me to death and I left permanently for Germany, the rest of my family left for Australia. I have lived in Thailand for the last 13 years since my retirement, I'm happy here, Thailand's troubles don't bother me here in the sticks, for me it is far better than the UK, I am 70 now so the UK is a distant memory, rather like a foreign country that I once visited but wouldn't want to go back to."

 

 

 

Care, as far as the UK is concerned would be to strong a word but I have a German daughter and grandchild in Munich and if I went to visit it would be nice to feel 'at home again' in Germany instead of as an outsider who may need a visa if I stayed longer than 3 months.

[Kieran00001]

13 minutes ago, nontabury said:

I have to agree with you,the public is better informed, they now  see how the Bureaucrats in Brussels are arrogant mini dictators, who are afraid of losing the U.K’s financial contributions,and are worried sick in case an independent U.K is successful, as this could encourage other countries to leave this so called Union.

 

 

 

 

It took a year, but we've grown to regret the decision. 

[soalbundy]

10 minutes ago, nontabury said:

I have to agree with you,the public is better informed, they now  see how the Bureaucrats in Brussels are arrogant mini dictators, who are afraid of losing the U.K’s financial contributions,and are worried sick in case an independent U.K is successful, as this could encourage other countries to leave this so called Union.

 

 

So you aren't worried about a second referendum then ? After all a decisive vote to leave could only strengthen the leave faction in parliament and make the negotiations far easier for the UK.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

53 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I think it is because the 'victory' wasn't overwhelming, a 4% win isn't conclusive if 48% are disenfranchised. A 70% vote for leave would be end of story. The public is now better informed than before the referendum and more people would vote. What are the brexiteers worried about ? maybe a second referendum would produce a decisive leave vote, or do they fear that a majority would rather remain now ?

I think you're  getting a little muddled with your understanding of certain words; a 4% margin was conclusive, the terms of the referendum clearly stated that the result would be decided by the largest majority of the votes cast, either for or against; therefore, even a 1% majority would be conclusive.

 

….. and with respect, I think you better google “disenfranchised”  well, don’t worry I’ll save you the trouble. It means to deprive someone of the right to vote; so how can the 48% that voted to remain be disenfranchised .... disenchanted maybe 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Eloquent pilgrim

[tebee]

Why global Britain  will need more immigration not less 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/fe2fb5a6-584c-11e8-b8b2-d6ceb45fa9d0

[nontabury]

26 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

EU states also take care of UK citizens abroad and there are more than you think.

 Just check out the figures. E.U citizens gain far more financial help from the U.K.

         ——————-

 

In what one MP described as a "scandalous failure", it has emerged that the UK pays more than £670m to EU countries for Brits' healthcare abroad, while claiming back less than £50m from the EU, even though there are significantly more EU citizens in the UK than UK citizens in the EU.

 

     —————-

 and in addition many E.U countries charge the U.K for British citizens,who use their A+ E departments. While the U.K. for some strange reason do not charge foreign national.

 

is this another case of those stupid Brits?

 

 

[HAKAPALITA]

37 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I think it is because the 'victory' wasn't overwhelming, a 4% win isn't conclusive if 48% are disenfranchised. A 70% vote for leave would be end of story. The public is now better informed than before the referendum and more people would vote. What are the brexiteers worried about ? maybe a second referendum would produce a decisive leave vote, or do they fear that a majority would rather remain now ?

I see, but the Stay in lot in would consider another vote unfair too so thats stalemate. They Lost.Not very British from an outsiders point of view .

[RuamRudy]

8 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 Just check out the figures. E.U citizens gain far more financial help from the U.K.

         ——————-

 

In what one MP described as a "scandalous failure", it has emerged that the UK pays more than £670m to EU countries for Brits' healthcare abroad, while claiming back less than £50m from the EU, even though there are significantly more EU citizens in the UK than UK citizens in the EU.

 

     —————-

 and in addition many E.U countries charge the U.K for British citizens,who use their A+ E departments. While the U.K. for some strange reason do not charge foreign national.

 

is this another case of those stupid Brits?

 

 

 

My sister is a casualty nurse and frequently has to deal with EU nationals and other foreigners. They have a procedure for collecting info from the patients so that the NHS to reclaim the costs - but she tells me that the procedure is so cumbersome and time consuming, and that they are so understaffed, that they are simply unable to afford the time needed get the info so the majority of cases go unclaimed. I don't think that you can blame the EU for that.

[CG1 Blue]

35 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Our borders, our fisheries, our trade deals ? You have a say in all this do you, aside from making a cross once every 4 years you have no say unless you can afford a lobbyist which those who really are in power can, it all goes over your head but it's nice to pretend.

But my cross every 4 years is a vote for the party I want in charge, for the manifesto I agree with.  It's the closest we can get to making a difference.  Far closer than the effect I could have on that bunch of bureaucrats in Brussels.

[HAKAPALITA]

P.S.You could ask Thai Immigration to run it on their rules and reduce the financial burden, which is rediculos to True Native Old Brits. You given thair pension away, a private Pension firm would have been prosecuted by now. Im fom Norway, we got nearly same. 

[soalbundy]

Just now, Eloquent pilgrim said:

I think you're  getting a little muddled with your understanding of certain words; a 4% margin was conclusive, the terms of the referendum clearly stated that the result would be decided by the largest majority of the votes cast, either for or against; therefore, even a 1% majority would be conclusive.

 

….. and with respect, I think you better google “disenfranchised”  well, don’t worry I’ll save you the trouble. It means to deprive someone of the right to vote; so how can the 48% that voted to remain be disenfranchised

Because the opinion of a large proportion isn't considered valid, yes they had the right to vote but the win margin was so small in percentage values as to be meaningless, hence the division. It doesn't matter, in terms of feelings, that the majority won because the result was not what one could call overwhelming, it doesn't matter what the botched terms of the referendum say, fact is you have a split nation because of this very reason. A second referendum could bring a decisive victory for leave which would heal the rift.The remainers may of course win, whatever, the margin should be decisive. If it's not ? well the process has been started on the first vote and should continue but the rift is there.

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

I haven't yet had breakfast and was trolling - all of you are quite right you are a not a burden on the UK taxpayer and yes most of you have paid taxes and NI all your lives and have frozen pensions. That said the UK is sitting on a huge debt and continues spend more than it earns you old guys will see your lives out with your pensions intact no doubt. But they are in pounds and your hard Brexit for those that wish it will be another haircut as teflon baht continues to ride high. I hope your Brexit highlands will be worth it which you wish for from afar - I fully expect my state pension to be means tested when I get to 67 (10 years off ) because that's just facing the reality of the dire economic situation we are in and which Brexit will exacerbate. 

 

So many expats in Thailand like to pontificate about what sh^^hole the UK has become and talk the country down - I for one love it. It's not perfect but pretty good especially so when you compare it to somewhere like Thailand. It's a beautiful spring day , the sun is shining and we have a Royal wedding to celebrate which will be fun even though I'm not a great beleiver. There never was a broken Britain just folk for whom life hadn't turned out like they hoped it would and viewing it through broken glasses - and those too many immigrants - well my wife is one of them and she loves the country too and voted remain.  The leavers were the moaners then .....

It’s more a case of you,and some other remoaners talking our country down.

By the way, I lived in Thailand for 20yrs, returning to live in the U.K. earlier this year. And yes the U.K is not a sh**thol, but personally I do prefer to live in Thailand rather than the U.K.  Where summers last for just a couple of days.

and where there are far too many tin pot god Bureaucrats. Having said that, I don’t  mis the corruption or the driving skills that one finds in Thailand.

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

28 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

So you aren't worried about a second referendum then ? After all a decisive vote to leave could only strengthen the leave faction in parliament and make the negotiations far easier for the UK.

I'm not worried about the outcome of a second referendum.  I believe the vote for Leave would be much higher - perhaps 60/40 for Leave.

My concern would be that we don't have time for that now. If we had enough time I'd say bring it on!

[beautifulthailand99]

31 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

I think you're  getting a little muddled with your understanding of certain words; a 4% margin was conclusive, the terms of the referendum clearly stated that the result would be decided by the largest majority of the votes cast, either for or against; therefore, even a 1% majority would be conclusive.

 

….. and with respect, I think you better google “disenfranchised”  well, don’t worry I’ll save you the trouble. It means to deprive someone of the right to vote; so how can the 48% that voted to remain be disenfranchised .... disenchanted maybe 

Should have been since it was a 'constitutional vote' so to speak 50% of the registered electorate for a win - the stay at homes being counted as acquiescing in the status quo. Simples why arrogant Cameron never did that I don't know but we are all living to regret it. 

[beautifulthailand99]

11 minutes ago, HAKAPALITA said:

P.S.You could ask Thai Immigration to run it on their rules and reduce the financial burden, which is rediculos to True Native Old Brits. You given thair pension away, a private Pension firm would have been prosecuted by now. Im fom Norway, we got nearly same. 

 

You lucky fella you've got a rich country - the same amount of oil and gas as the UK but 1/10th of the population. And a strong currency. 

[nontabury]

36 minutes ago, tebee said:

Why global Britain  will need more immigration not less 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/fe2fb5a6-584c-11e8-b8b2-d6ceb45fa9d0

 

 

   Don’t you think we’ve already taken enough, and while some of the immigrants have assimilated and have been a great asset to our country, unfortunately many have not.

 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by nontabury

[soalbundy]

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

My sister is a casualty nurse and frequently has to deal with EU nationals and other foreigners. They have a procedure for collecting info from the patients so that the NHS to reclaim the costs - but she tells me that the procedure is so cumbersome and time consuming, and that they are so understaffed, that they are simply unable to afford the time needed get the info so the majority of cases go unclaimed. I don't think that you can blame the EU for that.

Correct, many years ago a German friend of mine went to Norfolk broads boating with his family, his 9 year old son broke his arm badly and was operated on and had a hospital stay. My friend had all the correct documents for the hospital to receive payment, he filled his part out but the hospital weren't interested and his son was discharged later without payment. My friend was most impressed.

[aright]

8 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Because the opinion of a large proportion isn't considered valid, yes they had the right to vote but the win margin was so small in percentage values as to be meaningless, hence the division. It doesn't matter, in terms of feelings, that the majority won because the result was not what one could call overwhelming, it doesn't matter what the botched terms of the referendum say, fact is you have a split nation because of this very reason. A second referendum could bring a decisive victory for leave which would heal the rift.The remainers may of course win, whatever, the margin should be decisive. If it's not ? well the process has been started on the first vote and should continue but the rift is there.

A second referendum would be the ultimate Yes Minister Plot. The people, in a high turnout in a national referendum, decide to leave the EU . A new Prime Minister and Cabinet swear to implement that decision but the mandarins, the real masters of both policy and intrigue, work out a brilliant ruse to frustrate the lot of them.

Sound familiar? 

 

 

[nontabury]

17 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Because the opinion of a large proportion isn't considered valid, yes they had the right to vote but the win margin was so small in percentage values as to be meaningless, hence the division. It doesn't matter, in terms of feelings, that the majority won because the result was not what one could call overwhelming, it doesn't matter what the botched terms of the referendum say, fact is you have a split nation because of this very reason. A second referendum could bring a decisive victory for leave which would heal the rift.The remainers may of course win, whatever, the margin should be decisive. If it's not ? well the process has been started on the first vote and should continue but the rift is there.

So if the remainers had won, by just 1 vote, you would have demanded a 2nd referendum.  “Yes” I’m sure you would 5555

[Grouse]

22 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Had a good sleep ?

 

That was destroyed hours ago

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/17/theresa-may-denies-customs-union-climbdown

 

That is why remainers are so confused, they are miles behind the curve.

Morning all!

 

TM is now saying we need to remain in the CU after Dec 2021, possibly for 12 months.

 

She will also appoint 20 new Tory peers undercover of the Royal wedding

 

Radio 4

 

Bye, for now! I'll drop in to see if there is some informed discussion later ?

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-customs-theresa-may-backstop-plan-no-deal-irish-border-eu-summit-a8356586.html

Edited May 18, 2018 by Grouse

[CG1 Blue]

18 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

A second referendum could bring a decisive victory for leave which would heal the rift.The remainers may of course win, whatever, the margin should be decisive. If it's not ? well the process has been started on the first vote and should continue but the rift is there.

So what happens if there was a 2nd referendum and somehow Remain won by 52/48?

 

Best of 3?

[Grouse]

16 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

So what happens if there was a 2nd referendum and somehow Remain won by 52/48?

 

Best of 3?

No; the status quo ante has precedence unless there is a super majority. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Grouse