Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, aright said:

On the abortion issue, lets suppose an MP is opposed to it perhaps on religious or moral grounds but he represents a constituency which is 70% pro abortion. 

In an Abortion bill how should he vote?

 

16 minutes ago, Grouse said:

On his conscience. Clearly.

The constituency had its opportunity to vote at the previous election and presumably voted for the anti-abortion MP despite his publicly held opinion. Assuming that the vote in Parliament is an open vote then it is up to the MP how he votes and for the Constituents to hold him to account (if that is what they want to do) at the next election. During the period of a Parliament MPs are not subject to a series of opinion-poll mini-referendums, though they will or rather should take note of soundings from their constituents through their local Party managers.

[SheungWan]

48 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Nicely put!

Astonishing that so many of our countrymen don't understand!

I put it down to "secondary modern education"

Ill bet they all understand the off side rule though!?

I doubt it.

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

Youtube, was a 3 hour programm about the power of the rich elite starting from before the WW1 (that really made them money).

And those same people are remainers.

 

 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, aright said:

I agree because Abortion and Hanging are Conscience votes. Any non conscience votes should be cast on the basis of the majority of the will of his constituency. If he doesn't serve the needs of his constituency what value is he ?

As for they know more, are more intelligent, and better able to make decisions on the basis of his accumulated knowledge. Where is the evidence for that in todays world?   

Interesting idea 

 

Who decides what is a conscience vote and what is not? Will we have a constituents whip?

 

How about computer based referendums on everything? They would need to decide who gets to vote!

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, aright said:

So manifestos mean nothing. Say anything you want to get elected then listen to what your constituents say but most importantly be true to yourself  and vote according to your conscience. 

Exactly.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Nicely put!

 

Astonishing that so many of our countrymen don't understand!

 

I put it down to "secondary modern education"

 

Ill bet they all understand the off side rule though!?

It was ambiguously put.  This MP is entitled to his opinion but should not entitled to rub it in the faces of his voters.  

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, aright said:

I have already said the hanging issue is an issue of conscience, what you haven't explained is why the no hanging view of the MP's is more astute and discerning than those of the pro hanging view. 

Would your view have something to do with your intellectual take on the subject?

Well here's the point

 

Do you believe that all your peers are equally as well informed as you? Are equally well educated? Have such a well honed intellect?

 

The idea is that your constituency votes in the best person to take care of their interests.

 

To avoid unstable oscillations you get to change your mind every few years

 

That's the system, flawed as maybe.

[tebee]

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

It was ambiguously put.  This MP is entitled to his opinion but should not entitled to rub it in the faces of his voters.  

The MP is entitled to rub his opinion in the faces of whomever he pleases - of course he may not get re-elected next time, but that's his prerogative. 

[tebee]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Nicely put!

 

Astonishing that so many of our countrymen don't understand!

 

I put it down to "secondary modern education"

 

Ill bet they all understand the off side rule though!?

I will admit i don't understand the offside rule - what does this make me ?

[7by7]

Just now, tebee said:

I will admit i don't understand the offside rule - what does this make me ?

A cricket fan?

 

Do you understand the LBW rule?

 

 

[aright]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Well here's the point

 

Do you believe that all your peers are equally as well informed as you? Are equally well educated? Have such a well honed intellect?

 

The idea is that your constituency votes in the best person to take care of their interests.

 

To avoid unstable oscillations you get to change your mind every few years

 

That's the system, flawed as maybe.

Ok you have convinced me now will you please shut up about Brexit?

The MP's you revere so much as a result of their better information, equal or better education and of course their well honed intellect,  overwhelmingly  voted in the lower house to endorse the triggering of Article 50 which will effectively pave the way to leaving the EU.

I am so glad you have made clear to me the benefits of representative democracy.

Whoops, sorry, that's not what you wanted is it?  

 

[tebee]

9 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

A cricket fan?

 

Do you understand the LBW rule?

 

 

Yes - but I don't watch cricket - got put off it at school as I used to be forced on to a field of grass at the same time I was dying of hay fever! 

[aright]

9 minutes ago, tebee said:

I will admit i don't understand the offside rule - what does this make me ?

A big girls blouse.

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, aright said:

The MP's you revere so much as a result of their better information, equal or better education and of course their well honed intellect,  overwhelmingly  voted in the lower house to endorse the triggering of Article 50 which will effectively pave the way to leaving the EU.

One of those revered MP's from 2016.

 

Quote

I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a council chamber in Europe.” Kenneth Clarke MP.

 

No fan of Denis Skinner, but he was correct to call out Clarke.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

You really should not talk about yourself in that manner.

 

https://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/mps/

 

That interest would be a majority vote within their constituency.

Nope

[7by7]

2 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

One of those revered MP's from 2016.

 

 

No fan of Denis Skinner, but he was correct to call out Clarke.

 Because God forbid that any MP should hold, let alone express, an opinion which differs from yours!

 

Clark has never been shy of stating his views on the EU and the UK's membership; he opposed the holding of a referendum and was the only Tory to vote against triggering Article 50.

 

Yet his constituents in Rushcliffe have returned him to Parliament in every election since he first stood there in 1970. In all of those elections he polled over 50% of the votes cast: apart from 1997 (44.4%), 2001 (47.5%) and 2005 (49.5%). (Source)

 

In 2017 he polled 30,223 votes; an increase from 2015 of 1689; over half of the 3147 increase in turnout.

 

It seems that the majority of his constituents agree with his views; or at least don't disagree with them with enough conviction to stop them from voting for him!

 

I wonder if you know when he made that remark; probably not. 

 

To save you Googling, it was in the International Currency Review, Vol. 23, No. 4, Autumn 1996.

 

Unfortunately, I have been unable to find the actual article so we can see the context of the quoted remark.

 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

All of you ?

 

Are you different from me ? Or do you speak as a non - Brit ?

Yes, I'm clearly different from you.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

???

 

Diesel scandals

 

Egg scandals

 

Beef scandals

 

Yeah, great in theory, totally different in practice.

 

The EU is great at issuing dic-tats, not much good at enforcing them.

Well, we know one thing; you are not an engineer

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, aright said:

So manifestos mean nothing. Say anything you want to get elected then listen to what your constituents say but most importantly be true to yourself  and vote according to your conscience. 

Yes

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

This one by tebee ?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trustee_model_of_representation

 

Absolutely correct.

 

 

I agree

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

Of course your understanding is correct.

 

Who should I believe, Grouse's understanding or the UK Governments website ?

 

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-information-office/fymp/yaympenglish.pdf

 

https://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/mps/

 

???

Me

[aright]

9 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Yes

Are you a triplet with 2 brothers Adolph and Pol ?

[Grouse]

Gents, good discussion today!

 

Thanks for that

 

Off to bed now!

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, tebee said:

The MP is entitled to rub his opinion in the faces of whomever he pleases - of course he may not get re-elected next time, but that's his prerogative. 

Have to disagree. That is an abuse of a privilege given to him by his constituents. 

[tebee]

Those of you who Brexit will be easy should read this - the guy is a leaver, but one of the few who seems to recognize just how hard it will be to reverse 40 year of European integration.

 

http://peterjnorth.blogspot.com/2018/06/i-love-brexit-but-i-hate-brexiters.html?spref=tw

[soalbundy]

13 hours ago, nauseus said:

Must be true then.

well they named names including the royal families of Europe, bank of England, the Fed, Ford motor company, Dutch Shell, J.P. Morgan, among scores of others, some interesting things, throughout ww2 J.P. Morgan was able to operate freely in Paris, America bank rolled the Nazi party and supplied the money for the Autobahns, after ww2 Ford sued the American government for bombing its tank producing factories in Germany and won. The super rich, all one big happy family.

[soalbundy]

13 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Did you mean this sort of bedstead?

 

 

only the Brexit bedstead wont leave the ground

[soalbundy]

12 hours ago, nontabury said:

And those same people are remainers.

 

 

No, they are above remain or leave they win either way, the super rich are an interconnected, international, no borders family who, as in both world wars, bet on both sides, they always win, as J.F.Kennedy found out, the mafia, CIA, and the industrial military complex are an unbeatable opposition.

[soalbundy]

14 hours ago, transam said:

Hence Brexit.....You seem to be learning.....

doesn't say a lot for the Brits though does it. About 20 years ago a German comedian and social critic, Gerhard Polt was making ironic comedy sketches about Polish workers in Germany, whereas the German electrician needs a 20 minuet coffee break before he really gets going the Polish electrician merely plugs himself into the mains and gives himself a 240 volt shock before he starts work and after 2 hours has done more work than the German has all day.

[The Renegade]

They lied !! They promised £350 million a week for the NHS they squealed !!

 

Apparently May has went even higher

 

Quote

Theresa May has agreed to pour an additional £384 million per week into the NHS after Brexit – exceeding the amount mooted by the official Leave campaign and effectively locking the UK into leaving the EU.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/06/16/350m-extra-week-nhs-hunt-announces-theresa-may-locks-britain/

 

Quote

May will pledge to increase the NHS budget by 20 billion pounds ($26.6 billion) a year, or 384 million pounds a week, after Brexit, according to front-page reports in the Sunday Times, Sunday Telegraph and Observer, which were published late on Saturday.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-nhs/britains-may-to-pledge-20-billion-pound-health-service-cash-boost-reports-idUSKBN1JC10P

 

Time to wake up to reality. As much as it hurts and scares you, the UK IS LEAVING the EU.

 

Edited to add:

 

It is also in the remainers Bible, the Guardian, so it must be true ?

 

Quote

Taxpayers are to be asked to help fund a £20bn a year injection of extra cash into the National Health Service by 2023-24 that will pay for thousands more doctors and nurses, while cutting cancer deaths and improving mental health services, Theresa May will say today.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jun/16/may-to-unveil-20-billion-pound-a-year-nhs-boost