When to change from conventional oil to synthetic?

[PattayaDavid]

I have a 2013 Honda CBR 150R with low mileage that I bought from my neighbor who had it stored in his garage for 4 years.  The bike was literally brand new as it only had 4 kilometers on the odometer and still had the little rubber tits on the tires.  So far, I have only ridden it for 300 kilometers, but was just wondering as to what mileage would it be safe or advantageous to changeover to synthetic oil.  I'm not even sure what type of oil Honda puts in it at the factory or dealership when new, but I think it is conventional.  I'm thinking that 1000 kilometers is still too early to switch to synthetic oil, but am curious what you think as to what mileage would be sufficient to fully break-in the bike where as synthetic oil may be used.

 

Thanks,

[VocalNeal]

If you must I would say at the 3rd oil change. 1st change at 500 second at what the book says then change to synthetic. 

 

The advantage of synthetic is the schedule between changes. Given the price of an oil change on a bike with only 1l-sh in the engine I do not believe there is any advantage to using synthetic unless you live 20-40 miles from the nearest service workshop. and don't want to bother going.

 

Of course one could follow the manufacturers service schedule and spend the extra on the synthetic if you wish as the diff for 1l... etc.  Semi-synthetic is neither fish nor fowl and a waste of money. But then again only 1l of waste.

[PattayaDavid]

Thanks VocalNeal,

 

I was looking in my operators manual and it indicates that the first oil change is at 600 km and every 4,000 km/4 months whichever comes first thereafter.  The one thing that it didn't mention was the type of oil that Honda puts in the bike at delivery.  I doubt if I will even put 1,000 km on the bike over a 4 month period hence my interest in using synthetic oil which I think will allow me to extend the service intervals.  Since my bike is more than 4 years old with less than 300 km on the odometer, the warranty has long since expired.  I have the same problem with my Toyota Vigo as I only average between 5 and 6 thousand kilometers per year; I generally have it serviced only once per year.  I guess I need to stop by Honda and ask them exactly what type of oil they generally put in their bikes when performing service.

 

Thanks,

[johng]

Make sure the oil you put in is for wet clutches...look for API. SG or lower SE,SF no higher than G ?

 

Or JASO MA

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[johng]

 

Cant rotate it sorry

 

[Thai Chi]

There you go

 

[johng]

Thanks M8. Don't know why my rotating didn't work. !

[thaiguzzi]

Regardless of kms on the clock, even only 40 kms, if the oil has been in there for 4 years, it wants changing like, now.

Not at 600 kms. Now. Today.

[PattayaDavid]

2 hours ago, thaiguzzi said:

Regardless of kms on the clock, even only 40 kms, if the oil has been in there for 4 years, it wants changing like, now.

Not at 600 kms. Now. Today.

Point taken.  I was thinking that I was told that the oil had been changed.  The lady selling it, her brother is  a motorcycle mechanic and has a small shop and I am pretty sure that he said that he had changed the oil and either charged or replaced the battery.  The battery seems to work very well so I would be surprised if it is the original and has been sitting in the bike for 4 years.  Either way, I'll get in contact with him and ask, but in the mean time, I believe I will have the oil changed for no other reason, if not, my own piece of mind.

 

Thanks all.

[Agusts]

I read somewhere after 1000km you can go fully (100%) synthetic as the engine is bed in by then.... (for low mileage guy like yourself it is best to go fully synthetic, last longer - km and months).

 

 

[papa al]

16 hours ago, Agusts said:

I read somewhere after 1000km you can go fully (100%) synthetic as the engine is bed in by then.... (for low mileage guy like yourself it is best to go fully synthetic, last longer - km and months).

 

 

Full synthetic [hydrocracked petroleum] ≠ 100% synthetic [PAO/Esters from natural gas].

[Agusts]

10 hours ago, papa al said:

Full synthetic [hydrocracked petroleum] ≠ 100% synthetic [PAO/Esters from natural gas].

 

I never knew that, I get this Shell Advance 100% Synthetic from Super Cheap for 280b - best deal you find here....

 

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-69341-shell-advance-ultra-4t-10w-40-performance-synthetic-bike-engine-oil.aspx

 

 

[PattayaDavid]

5 hours ago, Agusts said:

 

I never knew that, I get this Shell Advance 100% Synthetic from Super Cheap for 280b - best deal you find here....

 

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-69341-shell-advance-ultra-4t-10w-40-performance-synthetic-bike-engine-oil.aspx

 

 

Is this Shell Advance Ultra available in Thailand?  If not, what would be a good 100% Synthetic motorcycle oil found in Pattaya?

[papa al]

18 hours ago, Agusts said:

 

I never knew that, I get this Shell Advance 100% Synthetic from Super Cheap for 280b - best deal you find here....

 

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-69341-shell-advance-ultra-4t-10w-40-performance-synthetic-bike-engine-oil.aspx

 

 

Shell Advance is full synthetic 

NOT 100% synthetic..

Nothing in the reference claims 100%

You just making that up bro.

12 hours ago, PattayaDavid said:

 what would be a good 100% Synthetic motorcycle oil found in Pattaya?

Maybe Motul.

Expensive and not worth it unless racing...

or two-stroke.

Full synthetic be fine enough for your road bike.

[papa al]

On 3/14/2018 at 8:59 PM, thaiguzzi said:

Regardless of kms on the clock, even only 40 kms, if the oil has been in there for 4 years, it wants changing like, now.

Not at 600 kms. Now. Today.

Have long questioned the ol'

oil-goes-bad-in-the-crankcase-over-time theory.

Like, really how quick does it oxidise, evaporator or whatever., 

It has been sitting in the ground for millions of years so...

4 years seems a trifle.

Would like to see data.

 

[thaiguzzi]

2 hours ago, papa al said:

Have long questioned the ol'

oil-goes-bad-in-the-crankcase-over-time theory.

Like, really how quick does it oxidise, evaporator or whatever., 

It has been sitting in the ground for millions of years so...

4 years seems a trifle.

Would like to see data.

 

For what mineral oil costs, especially out here, why bother leaving it to chance.

All my own bikes, if the workshop manual says change the oil annually or 3000 kms, i'll change it maximum at 3000 kms. Often less, ie 2000 kms.

I've seen inside enough air cooled engines to last a lifetime.

What's f##ks air cooled motors up is;

# thrashing from cold - not allowing the motor to reach operating temps before giving it a handful

# short journeys

# not changing oil at recommended intervals.

-----------------

I don't need data, I've seen cam lobes, tappets, piston skirts, crank big ends enough to see what old oil, or not changed enough oil does to parts. Let alone oil galleries with a build up of sludge. And sludge comes from?...............

 

[Agusts]

18 hours ago, PattayaDavid said:

Is this Shell Advance Ultra available in Thailand?  If not, what would be a good 100% Synthetic motorcycle oil found in Pattaya?

 

Of course it is available, as I said Super Cheap (in Thailand) has it and many other places...

[Agusts]

5 hours ago, papa al said:

Shell Advance is full synthetic 

NOT 100% synthetic..

Nothing in the reference claims 100%

You just making that up bro.

 

 

Sorry Papa but you didn't click that link, did you...!? lol.... It says on the bottle, "100% Synthetic", the other types say "Fully Synthetic"....

I am not making anything up, look at it:

 

 

I don't know what it says in the back, but the front is pretty obvious - take it up with Shell if you like, not me....

[ktm jeff]

Ignoring the base stock oil gradings  and the POA,s , oil comes in 4 main types. The best is 1 - Full synthetic , or Fully synthetic ( this is the same as 100% synthetic ) . 2 - Molecular , or hydro cracked . 3 Semi , or part synthetic . 4 - Mineral , or dino oil. Motul also do a factory 300 V oil that is full ( 100 % ) synthetic with  double ester . Twice the added amount of long chain molecules that resist the shearing forces found in gearboxs. This is the one i use in many of my bikes. Available in Thailand at about 1,250 Baht / liter. Shell , Castrol , Elf fully synthetic is good enough for most bikes.

[papa al]

3 hours ago, thaiguzzi said:

For what mineral oil costs, especially out here, why bother leaving it to chance.

All my own bikes, if the workshop manual says change the oil annually or 3000 kms, i'll change it maximum at 3000 kms. Often less, ie 2000 kms.

I've seen inside enough air cooled engines to last a lifetime.

What's f##ks air cooled motors up is;

# thrashing from cold - not allowing the motor to reach operating temps before giving it a handful

# short journeys

# not changing oil at recommended intervals.

-----------------

I don't need data, I've seen cam lobes, tappets, piston skirts, crank big ends enough to see what old oil, or not changed enough oil does to parts. Let alone oil galleries with a build up of sludge. And sludge comes from?...............

 

Sludge comes from breakdown of oil molecules under high temps of internal combustion

and contamination of gasses blowing by rings.

Not from oil sitting in a cold sump.

 

[papa al]

3 hours ago, Agusts said:

 

Sorry Papa but you didn't click that link, did you...!? lol.... It says on the bottle, "100% Synthetic", the other types say "Fully Synthetic"....

I am not making anything up, look at it:

 

 

I don't know what it says in the back, but the front is pretty obvious - take it up with Shell if you like, not me....

You right.

papa wrong.

This oil is synthesised from natural gas and is 100% syn.

10 quid / liter is what 100% costs. √

Resolution on the bottle was poor when looking before

 but google search confirmed your claim.

Slap papa back and forth across the face..

[Agusts]

9 minutes ago, papa al said:

You right.

papa wrong.

This oil is synthesised from natural gas and is 100% syn.

10 quid / liter is what 100% costs. √

Resolution on the bottle was poor when looking before

 but google search confirmed your claim.

Slap papa back and forth across the face..

 

Nevermind, I once saw a beautiful girl model on internet and praised her beauty - I was told later she was a he .... lol

[papa al]

44 minutes ago, Agusts said:

 

Nevermind, I once saw a beautiful girl model on internet and praised her beauty - I was told later she was a he .... lol

Same me at 7-11

[thaiguzzi]

2 hours ago, papa al said:

Sludge comes from breakdown of oil molecules under high temps of internal combustion

and contamination of gasses blowing by rings.

Not from oil sitting in a cold sump.

 

Whatever. I'm a motorcycle mechanic, not a physicist.

So, using your big words, do "oil molecules break" down quicker in new oil or old oil?

And you think it's fine and dandy to not bother changing old oil that has "sat in a cold sump" for 4 years and 600kms?

 

[papa al]

31 minutes ago, thaiguzzi said:

So, using your big words, do "oil molecules break" down quicker in new oil or old oil?

And you think it's fine and dandy to not bother changing old oil that has "sat in a cold sump" for 4 years and 600kms?

 

Sorry.

Will try to keep words to six or fewer  characters

letters .

er...shorter ..

er...small.

;-)

1. dunno; 

New oil    vs     4-year-old oil with only 8km. clocked

[per OP scenario]

on a water-cooled 150cc...

papa would guess

insignificant difference in oxidation rates at air temps..

 

[at 308km. needs break-in oil change for sure]

 

2. dunno.  Where you come up with 600km., ??.

Honda says 4000km intervals.

Doesn't really take much to keep these little Hondas happy.

 

[ktm jeff]

Oil breaks down over time once its been refined. Sitting in a vented engine , it will be subjected to condensation and contamination , regardless of outside air temperature . Similar to brake fluid. O P had ridden the bike over 300 KM 2 weeks ago. Oil needs changing as soon as possible. Any fully / full / 100% oil will be more than good enough to cope with the temperatures and dusty conditions of Thailand. 400 Baht per liter is cheaper than premature wear or engine failure.

[papa al]

Refined oil [group 2, common oil]

is more stable than crude as the sulphur has been removed.

Group 3 = hydrocrackted = full synthetic is even more stable.

Group 4, = PAO = is super stable. has be run 100,000+ miles

in Diesel rigs. with 1-micron bypass filtration system.

Group 5, = esters, are very hydrophilic and break down with age + HOH exposure..

Good for racing and aircraft turbine applications.

Brake fluid is hydrophilic/hydroscopic [water absorbing] vs

oil which is  hydrophobic, water repelling.

Water entering in crankcase will settle to bottom, an oxygen-rare location.

It will evaporate when the engine is run.

Hence, HOH condensation/contamination in a crankcase is likely non-consequential to [non-ester] oil break-down.

A 300km-since-new oil needs changing because small metal particles enter oil under break-in.

Not because oil too broken.

 

Anecdote:

papa bought a 5 y/o, 4500km, ceeber that had sat unused 9 months per year on humid/salty Ko Samui.

Unknown oil-change history, but chain was rusty and stiff, so ... .

Prolly some rust on rings occurred.

papa then ran her 3 years/ 30,000+ km of high-rpm riding,

changing conventional oil at 2-3000km intervals

[whenever black or low on dip-stick] before 

smoking started necessitating the inexpensive rebuild.

 

100% synthetic, if you can find it, costs $20+ per 4000km ceeber150 oil change.

Your engine will last long time and run with more power wi dis.

Full-syn motorcycle oil is $13.

[ceeber no hab oil filter]

Conventional oil is $4-5 per change.

A a ceeber150 top-job [piston/ring/bore] costs about $75 at 30+ km..

Do the arithmetics, Jeff.

ceeber is not a KTM

 

 

 

 

 

[thaiguzzi]

10 hours ago, papa al said:

2. dunno.  Where you come up with 600km., ??.

The OP.

[papa al]

16 hours ago, ktm jeff said:

Ignoring the base stock oil gradings  and the POA,s , oil comes in 4 main types. The best is 1 - Full synthetic , or Fully synthetic ( this is the same as 100% synthetic ) . 2 - Molecular , or hydro cracked . 3 Semi , or part synthetic . 4 - Mineral , or dino oil. Motul also do a factory 300 V oil that is full ( 100 % ) synthetic with  double ester . Twice the added amount of long chain molecules that resist the shearing forces found in gearboxs. This is the one i use in many of my bikes. Available in Thailand at about 1,250 Baht / liter. Shell , Castrol , Elf fully synthetic is good enough for most bikes.

Group 1: crude minimally processed.

Group 2: conventional oil, cracked and sulphur removed.

Group 3: Hydrocracked = full synthetic.

Semi-synthetic is mixture of groups 2 and 3

One drop of group 3 added to a gallon of group 2 would qualify as semi-syn, I guess.

Group 4: PAO base sock, synthesised from natural gas. 100% synthetic.

Group 5: Ester base stock,  synthesised from natural gas. 100% synthetic.

 

fully synthetic  ≠ 100% synthetic

 

No. Long-chain hydrocarbons are more susceptible to mechanical shear than short compact esters or POAs.

[papa al]

10 minutes ago, thaiguzzi said:

The OP.

OP:

"The bike ...  only had 4 kilometers on the odometer ...  So far, I have only ridden it for 300 kilometres,"

300 + 4 ≠ 600