The air is heavily polluted today

[drtreelove]

3 hours ago, Sandy Freckle said:

Unfortunately when it's a long time ingrained practice it can take a long time to turn the ship around.
Permaculture offers one way forward.., but unfortunately it's embryonic at best in a land of masked smiles and also what is generally considered organic in S/E Asia is still a long way from what is actually organic..., especially compared to the various certification methods of the 1st world. 

This is a profound statement!  Please contribute and elaborate on this observation in the TV Farming, Organic subforum.  It is not only SE Asia that has lost the original meaning of "organic" growing. Conventional organic even in your "1st world" has stagnated on what people don't want, harsh chemical pesticides and fertilizers and environmental contamination. Rightfully so.  But comprehensive "Beyond Organic" builds soil with mineral balancing, organic matter and humic substances and biologial activity. "High Brix" or "high nutrient density" is the new improved organic.  

[bkk6060]

Just now, downtowneddie said:

And eventually the complaints got strong enough so that laws were passed and the air quality in L.A. is now far better than it was back then.

So very true.  Just making a comparison spent 20 years in the stuff before things changed. But, good luck changing any of that here.

[drtreelove]

3 minutes ago, downtowneddie said:

And eventually the complaints got strong enough so that laws were passed and the air quality in L.A. is now far better than it was back then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Air_Act_(United_States)

[bkk6060]

The current smoke is one thing but to do it right, a total retooling of industry/factories,  cars, trucks, buses etc. would be needed.

My experience here is that this is a " we don't want to hassle with it" place.  It would cost too much and cause too much of a problem for the Thai people to do any of this.

There will be talk, but mostly no action.

Not a rant I like Thailand, just what I see as the case.

 

[sfokevin]

Monday I spent the day in Bangkok... The flight back was about 7pm... And as we got close to Chiang Mai I could see dozens of good sized fires burning in the mountain region just east of Doi Inthanon as we approached Chiang Mai... The pollution we have is a local problem... 

[canthai55]

1 hour ago, sfokevin said:

 The pollution we have is a local problem... 

Some of it is - but not all

[evenstevens]

1 hour ago, sfokevin said:

Monday I spent the day in Bangkok... The flight back was about 7pm... And as we got close to Chiang Mai I could see dozens of good sized fires burning in the mountain region just east of Doi Inthanon as we approached Chiang Mai... The pollution we have is a local problem... 

Last Saturday  night had the very good fortune of attending a social event at the Four Seasons Resort Maerim,where all could see at least 4 hot spots burning furiously out of conrol in the mountains directly opposite us, the local staff said it occurs bang on time every year,and done by the army

these wind maps ,saying that the smog etc etc is coming from neighbouring countrys,or is a major contributer to C/mai,s smog is a load of marlarkey, the problem is, in there own backyard as confirmed in the above post, a nice high noon to all

[downtowneddie]

8 minutes ago, evenstevens said:

Last Saturday  night had the very good fortune of attending a social event at the Four Seasons Resort Maerim,where all could see at least 4 hot spots burning furiously out of conrol in the mountains directly opposite us, the local staff said it occurs bang on time every year,and done by the army

these wind maps ,saying that the smog etc etc is coming from neighbouring countrys,or is a major contributer to C/mai,s smog is a load of marlarkey, the problem is, in there own backyard as confirmed in the above post, a nice high noon to all

I believe that it's both. I think that there can be more than one cause.

[downtowneddie]

A few years ago on the way back from Doi Angkhan we drove through a valley that was just fields and fields of corn. I'm told that's where the corn chip makers get their corn from in Thailand. Anyway, every year they've been doing a massive and illegal burn.

[keo]

5 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

This is not a straight forward case of one is guilty and the other is innocent, all countries in the region are partially responsible for the pollution you're breathing right now and the Fire and Wind Maps confirm that is the case, it has always been this way for as long as - deal with one of the problems and ignore the others and nothing will change. 

 

I live not far away from Samoeng and I see this on a regular basis, the problem is trying to educate hill tribe farmers and provide enforcement in remote locations. And when you have hill farmers even further North across the border, doing exactly the same without impunity, there's no incentive for local farmers to abide by the law.

 

Unfortunately it's very difficult to measure the extent of blown in PM2.5 versus the amount that is home grown, what I do know is that PM2.5 is very light and can travel for many many miles, that's why it's important to look at the wind maps before concluding on this.

When Thailand cleans up it's own backyard, then they can start pointing the finger at neighbouring countries. At the moment, from what I can see, they are only doing the latter.

[keo]

5 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

This is not a straight forward case of one is guilty and the other is innocent, all countries in the region are partially responsible for the pollution you're breathing right now and the Fire and Wind Maps confirm that is the case, it has always been this way for as long as - deal with one of the problems and ignore the others and nothing will change. 

 

I live not far away from Samoeng and I see this on a regular basis, the problem is trying to educate hill tribe farmers and provide enforcement in remote locations. And when you have hill farmers even further North across the border, doing exactly the same without impunity, there's no incentive for local farmers to abide by the law.

 

Unfortunately it's very difficult to measure the extent of blown in PM2.5 versus the amount that is home grown, what I do know is that PM2.5 is very light and can travel for many many miles, that's why it's important to look at the wind maps before concluding on this.

When Thailand cleans up it's own backyard, then they can start pointing the finger at neighbouring countries. At the moment, from what I can see, they are only doing the latter.

[simoh1490]

38 minutes ago, keo said:

When Thailand cleans up it's own backyard, then they can start pointing the finger at neighbouring countries. At the moment, from what I can see, they are only doing the latter.

Blah blah blah, and in the meantime do what, ignore the wind!

[CheGuava]

9 hours ago, inThailand said:

I find it comical many CM expats have taken to wearing masks.

 

Why would anyone stay in a place where you can't safely breathe the air?

 

I find it comical that many people in Canada have taken to wearing hats, gloves and thick coats.

 

Why would anyone stay in a place where you can't safely set foot out the door?

[canthai55]

Here is the culprit ...

 

[meechai]

See this in Thai News section?

Authorities have misled people’ about health peril of air pollution

 

 

[simoh1490]

So much chest beating by so many, wait another month or so and this will all be a distant memory and forgotten, until next year.

[keo]

1 hour ago, simoh1490 said:

Blah blah blah, and in the meantime do what, ignore the wind!

Yes. They can't control the wind, and they can't control what is happening in Burma or anywhere else. What they can control, but aren't, is what is contributing to the problem here.

[simoh1490]

34 minutes ago, keo said:

Yes. They can't control the wind, and they can't control what is happening in Burma or anywhere else. What they can control, but aren't, is what is contributing to the problem here.

I doubt that you've been here long enough to understand the problem nor fully appreciate the extent of it, otherwise, you would temper such a ridiculous remark!

 

These are not the lush meadows of the MidWest where easily enforceable laws go hand in hand with wealthy educated farmers who can fund alternatives. These are hilltribe farmers who farm remote, barely accessible hillsides, their budgets are close to zero, along with their education and knowledge of modern farming methods or the impacts of airborne pollution on their offspring. Ah yes I hear you say but what about composting, that's cheap and easy, farmer somchai asks, why! 

 

Fifteen years ago the pollution problem during the burning season was often dire, subsequently, people have been educated and progress has been made to where burning is now against the law during certain periods and where I live that law is followed by 90% of the people or better.  It's great that you want everything perfect and you want it now but things don't work that way here, change will take time and that change is happening today. In the meantime, it's appropriate for farangs such as yourself to get a grasp on the bigger pollution problem in the region and not just the things you see outside your car window. I suggest you spend 15 minutes with the wind maps and the fire maps to understand the impact of that picture.

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, canthai55 said:

If this problem bothers you so much, is so dangerous, you fear for your health - why are you here ? Seems that if you KNOW it is so bad you would get away.

Maybe try Beijing, or Mexico City ?  Then you can complain in Chinese, or Spanish, and I can not read either.

Win Win all around.

This incessant, constant, moaning and groaning ...

Who's moaning or groaning? This thread is information on a fact, not an opinion.

What I don't get are posters that go on threads to moan about other people moaning.

No one forced you to come on this thread and read it.

[simoh1490]

It's the people moaning and groaning about others who are moaning and groaning about the group that moans and groans that gets to me.

[evenstevens]

as there is a pinned thread on the subject.do hope the mods.kick this thread into touch

[bkk6060]

By cracky, I have a right to moan and groan....

[keo]

3 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

I doubt that you've been here long enough to understand the problem nor fully appreciate the extent of it, otherwise, you would temper such a ridiculous remark!

 

These are not the lush meadows of the MidWest where easily enforceable laws go hand in hand with wealthy educated farmers who can fund alternatives. These are hilltribe farmers who farm remote, barely accessible hillsides, their budgets are close to zero, along with their education and knowledge of modern farming methods or the impacts of airborne pollution on their offspring. Ah yes I hear you say but what about composting, that's cheap and easy, farmer somchai asks, why! 

 

Fifteen years ago the pollution problem during the burning season was often dire, subsequently, people have been educated and progress has been made to where burning is now against the law during certain periods and where I live that law is followed by 90% of the people or better.  It's great that you want everything perfect and you want it now but things don't work that way here, change will take time and that change is happening today. In the meantime, it's appropriate for farangs such as yourself to get a grasp on the bigger pollution problem in the region and not just the things you see outside your car window. I suggest you spend 15 minutes with the wind maps and the fire maps to understand the impact of that picture.

Get off your high horse, mate. I've been here 11 years, and if anything have seen the situation get worse as Chiang Mai has grown. The situation is dire now.

 

I'm well aware of the challenges that Thailand faces in tackling the problem, and that change is slow here. I'm not looking for overnight perfection, but I do expect the authorities to do more to tackle the issue. Adopting the WHO AQI standards would be a start. And maybe the 13.5 Billion THB that they spent on 3 submarines might have been better spent on tackling the pollution problem? Certainly would've been more beneficial to Thai society. Wishful thinking, I know.

 

Do tell us what rosey part of town you live, where 90+% of people respect the burning ban? I live in Nam Phrae, and the smell of smoke at dusk would knock you for six. And I'm sorry, but introducing a burning ban on the 1st of March was locking the stable door after the horse had bolted.

I'll pass on your wind map, not interested.

[simoh1490]

31 minutes ago, keo said:

Get off your high horse, mate. I've been here 11 years, and if anything have seen the situation get worse as Chiang Mai has grown. The situation is dire now.

 

I'm well aware of the challenges that Thailand faces in tackling the problem, and that change is slow here. I'm not looking for overnight perfection, but I do expect the authorities to do more to tackle the issue. Adopting the WHO AQI standards would be a start. And maybe the 13.5 Billion THB that they spent on 3 submarines might have been better spent on tackling the pollution problem? Certainly would've been more beneficial to Thai society. Wishful thinking, I know.

 

Do tell us what rosey part of town you live, where 90+% of people respect the burning ban? I live in Nam Phrae, and the smell of smoke at dusk would knock you for six. And I'm sorry, but introducing a burning ban on the 1st of March was locking the stable door after the horse had bolted.

I'll pass on your wind map, not interested.

I'm in Mae Rim where we can smell smoke because the smell carries but there's no visible burning anywhere near. And the local landowner is Thai and he owns several thousand rai of rice paddy, he forbids burning during this period and he's a retired police General.

 

You're foolish to pass on the wind map, that in conjunction with NASA firemaps shows another side of the problem that everyone needs to understand.

 

The WHO AQI standards are not understood by many, they represent an aspiration and a hope since they are not met by 92% of the countries who are supposedly following them, asking Thailand to adopt them does what!

 

Submarines versus pollution control - too silly to even discuss. 

[runamok27]

One thing I noticed from looking at pollution maps is that China is half dark red and the wind does push that down into Thailand and if you add in the burning the Thai’s are doing, Thailand turns a light red. Compared to half of China, Thailand is not bad but that is comparing it to what looks like the most polluted country in Asia. If China does succeed one day in cleaning up their act the whole of SE Asia will be far better off. One interesting part of the map is seeing that the rural parts of China are green. Just a guess but I would think they burn a ton of stuff out there which would seem to indicate that burning from farming may not be such a large contributor after all. The dark red areas are all over the industrial centers in China. That can be cleaned up far easier than random farmers in the countryside so maybe there is some hope after all.

[canthai55]

In China most comes from burning coal. And low quality coal at that.

[runamok27]

Do you know if the coal burning is from electricity generation or something else? If it’s for that I would have more hope this problem will go away pretty soon because just changing to natural gas for electricity generation and some solar and wind would solve that problem and they wouldn’t have to change it all just most of it.

[orang37]

23 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

These are hilltribe farmers who farm remote, barely accessible hillsides

A significant source of pollution, historically, has been some hill-tribe groups deliberately burning forest areas so that when the rains come a fine crop of mushrooms appear on the charred fallen trees; that has been a cash crop when delivered through existing trading  networks.

 

I would estimate total hill-tribe air pollution in Thailand to be a fraction of that produced by large-scale agriculture. And, I'd be happy to have my assumptions corrected based on reliable research !

 

~o:37;

 

[keo]

18 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

The WHO AQI standards are not understood by many, they represent an aspiration and a hope since they are not met by 92% of the countries who are supposedly following them, asking Thailand to adopt them does what!

It would show that Thailand are serious about tackling the issue, and hold the same aspirations as the rest of the developed world. Instead of setting the bar so high that they can easily limbo under it. 

Anyway, agree to disagree. I'm actually in China at the moment, enjoying some relatively fresh air. Can't wait for the decent through the brown blanket tomorrow.

[bkk6060]

14 hours ago, orang37 said:

A significant source of pollution, historically, has been some hill-tribe groups deliberately burning forest areas so that when the rains come a fine crop of mushrooms appear on the charred fallen trees; that has been a cash crop when delivered through existing trading  networks.

 

 

I am sure if they did not, a complaint thread would start:  "Where have all the mushrooms gone"?