Yulia Skripal, poisoned with her Russian double-agent father, is getting better

[webfact]

Yulia Skripal, poisoned with her Russian double-agent father, is getting better

By Guy Faulconbridge and Andrew MacAskill

 

A police officer stands guard outside of the home of former Russian military intelligence officer Sergei Skripal, in Salisbury, Britain, March 6, 2018. REUTERS/Toby Melville

 

LONDON (Reuters) - The daughter of former Russian double agent Sergei Skripal is getting better after spending three weeks in critical condition due to a nerve toxin attack at his home in England, the hospital where she is being treated said on Thursday.

 

After the first known use of a military-grade nerve agent on European soil since World War Two, Britain blamed Russian President Vladimir Putin for the attempted murder, and the West has expelled around 130 Russian diplomats.

 

Russia has denied using Novichok, a nerve agent first developed by the Soviet military, to attack Skripal. Moscow has said it suspects the British secret services are trying to frame Russia to stoke anti-Russian hysteria.

 

British counter-terrorism police said they now believe Skripal and his 33-year-old daughter Yulia were poisoned with a nerve toxin that had been left on the front door of their home in the genteel English cathedral city of Salisbury.

 

“I’m pleased to be able to report an improvement in the condition of Yulia Skripal," Christine Blanshard, Medical Director for Salisbury District Hospital, said in a statement.

 

"She has responded well to treatment but continues to receive expert clinical care 24 hours a day," she said.

 

Her father remained in a critical but stable condition, the hospital said. Last week, a British judge said the Skripals might have suffered permanent brain damage as a result of the attack.

 

Police said on Thursday they had placed a cordon around a children’s play area near the Skripal's modest house as a precaution.

 

Yulia and her 66-year-old father were found slumped on a bench outside a shopping centre in Salisbury on March 4.

 

Britain has blamed the attempted murder on Russia, and expelled 23 Russians it said were spies working under diplomatic cover in retaliation.

 

Russia, which denies carrying out the attack, responded by throwing out 23 British diplomats. Moscow has since accused the British secret services of trying to frame Russia to stoke anti-Russian hysteria.

 

"ENOUGH IS ENOUGH"

 

The attack on Skripal, a former colonel in Russian military intelligence who betrayed dozens of Russian agents to Britain's MI6 spy service, has plunged Moscow's relations with the West to a new post-Cold War low.

 

British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said late on Wednesday the Kremlin had underestimated the Western response to the attack, which also injured a British policeman.

 

Johnson told an audience of ambassadors in London that 27 countries had now moved to expel Russian diplomats over Moscow's suspected involvement.

 

"These expulsions represent a moment when a feeling has suddenly crystallised, when years of vexation and provocation have worn the collective patience to breaking point, and when across the world – across three continents – there are countries who are willing to say enough is enough," Johnson said.

 

Maria Zakharova, a spokeswoman for Russia's Foreign Ministry, told reporters in Moscow on Thursday Britain was breaking international law by refusing to provide information on Yulia Skripal despite the fact she was a Russian citizen.

 

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Russia was watching closely a media report that Britain might limit London's role in marketing Russian debt to investors.

 

Skripal, recruited by British spies while in Spain, ended up in Britain after a Cold War-style spy swap that brought 10 Russian spies captured in the United States back to Moscow in exchange for those accused by Moscow of spying for the West.

 

His house, which featured a good-luck horseshoe on the front door, was bought for 260,000 pounds in 2011. Skripal was listed as living there under his own name.

 

Since emerging from the world of high espionage and betrayal, he has lived modestly in the cathedral city of Salisbury and kept out of the spotlight until he and his daughter were found unconscious on March 4.

 

In the years since he found refuge in Britain, he lost both a wife and son.

 

The attack on Skripal has been likened to the killing of ex-KGB agent Alexander Litvinenko in Britain. Litvinenko, a critic of Putin, died in London in 2006 after drinking green tea laced with radioactive polonium 210.

 

Russia denied any involvement in that killing.

 

An inquiry led by senior British judge Robert Owen found that former KGB bodyguard Andrei Lugovoy and another Russian, Dmitry Kovtun, carried out the murder of Litvinenko as part of an operation probably directed by Russia’s Federal Security Service.

 

(Additional reporting by Michael Holden and Costas Pitas in London and Vladimir Soldatkin in Moscow; Writing by Richard Balmforth and Guy Faulconbridge; Editing by Gareth Jones and Raissa Kasolowsky)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-03-30

[Topdoc]

So was it a military grade Novichok developed by the Russians or a much weaker nerve agent developed by ______ ____ ?

 

"Tucked away in 7,000 acres of beautiful Wiltshire countryside lies one of Britain's most infamous scientific establishments. Porton Down, founded in 1916, is the oldest chemical warfare research installation in the world. The tight secrecy which has surrounded the establishment for decades has fed the growth of all sorts of myths and rumours about its experiments. One Whitehall official once remarked that Porton had an image of "a sinister and nefarious establishment".

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2004/may/06/science.research

 

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, Topdoc said:

So was it a military grade Novichok developed by the Russians or a much weaker nerve agent developed by ______ ____ ?

 

"Tucked away in 7,000 acres of beautiful Wiltshire countryside lies one of Britain's most infamous scientific establishments. Porton Down, founded in 1916, is the oldest chemical warfare research installation in the world. The tight secrecy which has surrounded the establishment for decades has fed the growth of all sorts of myths and rumours about its experiments. One Whitehall official once remarked that Porton had an image of "a sinister and nefarious establishment".

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2004/may/06/science.research

 

 

Or a botched delivery. But by all means, go for the conspiracy theory first.

[Topdoc]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Or a botched delivery. But by all means, go for the conspiracy theory first.

Well, to say 'there is no other plausible explanation' is frankly an insult to human intelligence.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, Topdoc said:

Well, to say 'there is no other plausible explanation' is frankly an insult to human intelligence.

 

I'd say that making up something that wasn't said (not by me, not in the OP and not in the link provided by you) is on par. On the other hand, no particularly compelling alternative culprits were suggested.

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Morch

[Thingamabob]

Stranger and stranger...

[Khun Han]

This is great news. But I'm baffled. The Russian defector who worked on the development of Novichoks stated that it's a persistent agent which causes irreversible damage, and results in certain death. So whatever Yulia and her dad were poisoned with (which was a strong enough dose to put them both in a coma), it can't possibly be a Novichok.

[Basil B]

I hope she and he make a full recovery, and it is nice to hear she can speak but I doubt she will have any useful information as she has been in a coma for 3 weeks, she probably will not understand where she is and will not even remember coming to the UK, her short term memory is probable well scrambled. 

[Basil B]

20 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

This is great news. But I'm baffled. The Russian defector who worked on the development of Novichoks stated that it's a persistent agent which causes irreversible damage, and results in certain death. So whatever Yulia and her dad were poisoned with (which was a strong enough dose to put them both in a coma), it can't possibly be a Novichok.

We have had samples of the stuff for years at Portland Down so maybe the have engineered an antidote for it...

Edited March 30, 2018 by Basil B

[Khun Han]

Just now, Basil B said:

We have had samples of the stuff for year at Portland Down so maybe the have engineered an antidote for it...

 

An antidote won't reverse the damage already done.

[colinneil]

Can anybody be sure that the article in the OP is the genuine thing?

They cannot even get the quote about the photo correct.

Person in the photo is not a police officer, but a PCSO.

Police community support officer.

[Morch]

30 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

This is great news. But I'm baffled. The Russian defector who worked on the development of Novichoks stated that it's a persistent agent which causes irreversible damage, and results in certain death. So whatever Yulia and her dad were poisoned with (which was a strong enough dose to put them both in a coma), it can't possibly be a Novichok.

 

Could have been a version of, perhaps something less lethal as to not effect a larger area/more people. Could have been botched delivery. Or that for some unspecified reason, exposure wasn't quite as expected. I'd say that the first option may go a ways explaining difficulties in identification of the substance.

[Khun Han]

15 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Could have been a version of, perhaps something less lethal as to not effect a larger area/more people. Could have been botched delivery. Or that for some unspecified reason, exposure wasn't quite as expected. I'd say that the first option may go a ways explaining difficulties in identification of the substance.

 

But PM May stated categorically in the Lower House that it had been identified as military grade.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

But PM May stated categorically in the Lower House that it had been identified as military grade.

 

Yes, and?

A bullet can be military grade, so can a nuclear bomb. They've got different effects. It would seem plausible that there will be different varieties/version tailored for specific missions. Differences could be with regard to mode of delivery, area of effect, level of toxicity, and persistence. Since the formula been around for a while, it's not unreasonable to assume that there were improvements and tinkering over the years.

[Khun Han]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Yes, and?

A bullet can be military grade, so can a nuclear bomb. They've got different effects. It would seem plausible that there will be different varieties/version tailored for specific missions. Differences could be with regard to mode of delivery, area of effect, level of toxicity, and persistence. Since the formula been around for a while, it's not unreasonable to assume that there were improvements and tinkering over the years.

 

We have been told by the experts that the tiniest amount of military grade Novichok is enough to kill in minutes, no matter how it's administered. The latest from the government is that the contamination took place at Sergei's home, then they went out for several hours, including eating and drinking, and then they both fell ill at the same time on a park bench in the city centre. Nothing adds up. In fact, it stinks.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Khun Han said:

 

We have been told by the experts that the tiniest amount of military grade Novichok is enough to kill in minutes, no matter how it's administered. The latest from the government is that the contamination took place at Sergei's home, then they went out for several hours, including eating and drinking, and then they both fell ill at the same time on a park bench in the city centre. Nothing adds up. In fact, it stinks.

 

I don't think that there was a uniform all encompassing response such as you describe. Quite a few of the comments by professionals included caveats and cautionary notes. That there was some hype to this, sure. But again - if the version used is not quite the textbook one referenced in said comments, then the effects (and other details) could be different. And once more, this is all assuming that the delivery wasn't botched, etc. Wouldn't be the first intelligence operation to go south.

[metisdead]

A post from a less than credible source has been removed. 

[Khun Han]

23 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I don't think that there was a uniform all encompassing response such as you describe. Quite a few of the comments by professionals included caveats and cautionary notes. That there was some hype to this, sure. But again - if the version used is not quite the textbook one referenced in said comments, then the effects (and other details) could be different. And once more, this is all assuming that the delivery wasn't botched, etc. Wouldn't be the first intelligence operation to go south.

 

Then there's DS Nick Bailey, a first responder, who was off-duty at the time. It's also being claimed that he got infected when he visited Sergei's home shortly after attending to Sergei and Yulia. Assuming he got the address from Sergei's wallet, or some such, what on earth possessed him to go there, off duty? Even if he'd had some kind of brainstorm connecting Sergei's home to events on the park bench, it was always a job for the plod. And then there's his miraculous recovery, despite the damage from Novichok ingestation being permanent. There is a lot more to this story than we are being told, a whole dynamic that's being left out of the public narrative.

[Morch]

17 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Then there's DS Nick Bailey, a first responder, who was off-duty at the time. It's also being claimed that he got infected when he visited Sergei's home shortly after attending to Sergei and Yulia. Assuming he got the address from Sergei's wallet, or some such, what on earth possessed him to go there, off duty? Even if he'd had some kind of brainstorm connecting Sergei's home to events on the park bench, it was always a job for the plod. And then there's his miraculous recovery, despite the damage from Novichok ingestation being permanent. There is a lot more to this story than we are being told, a whole dynamic that's being left out of the public narrative.

 

We both don't know each and every tiny detail related to the investigation, one of us is working overtime trying to hint at a conspiracy. So no, I do not pretend to know exactly what X was thinking at the time, or why he did what he did. And as for repeating yet again your position regarding the substance supposed effects and toxicity - once more, not necessarily based on fact. That not all the details are made public is a bogus complaint. Most investigation, certainly ones of this magnitude are not and can not, be conducted with real time full disclosure. It would seem that you are quite willing to ignore the possibility that additional information is not made available to the general public because of opposite reasons to those you appear to allege.

[asiamaster]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Could have been a version of, perhaps something less lethal as to not effect a larger area/more people. Could have been botched delivery. Or that for some unspecified reason, exposure wasn't quite as expected. I'd say that the first option may go a ways explaining difficulties in identification of the substance.

Nice conspiracy theory...

[Khun Han]

46 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

We both don't know each and every tiny detail related to the investigation, one of us is working overtime trying to hint at a conspiracy. So no, I do not pretend to know exactly what X was thinking at the time, or why he did what he did. And as for repeating yet again your position regarding the substance supposed effects and toxicity - once more, not necessarily based on fact. That not all the details are made public is a bogus complaint. Most investigation, certainly ones of this magnitude are not and can not, be conducted with real time full disclosure. It would seem that you are quite willing to ignore the possibility that additional information is not made available to the general public because of opposite reasons to those you appear to allege.

 

And yet the government was quick to make definitive statements. Some of which, particularly from the Foreign Secretary, turned out to be contradictory. Frankly, I can't imagine why any rational person would take the government's version of events at all seriously.

[asiamaster]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

I don't think that there was a uniform all encompassing response such as you describe. Quite a few of the comments by professionals included caveats and cautionary notes. That there was some hype to this, sure. But again - if the version used is not quite the textbook one referenced in said comments, then the effects (and other details) could be different. And once more, this is all assuming that the delivery wasn't botched, etc. Wouldn't be the first intelligence operation to go south.

good conspiracy theory...

[asiamaster]

So now that she is out of coma she will be made an offer she can not refuse???

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

And yet the government was quick to make definitive statements. Some of which, particularly from the Foreign Secretary, turned out to be contradictory. Frankly, I can't imagine why any rational person would take the government's version of events at all seriously.

 

I should think some of it is hype, and some based on more complete information. If you want to play the contradictory part, that would apply all around - not as if Russia's being playing it straight on this instance or the last one. Where we disagree, apparently, is with automatically presuming that any contradictions and inconsistencies imply something nefarious. And, of course, I did not fully subscribe to all the details issued by the government. The all or nothing approach is something you insert to the exchange.

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, asiamaster said:

good conspiracy theory...

 

If you say so. There is nothing in particular which points this way in my post, but eh.  

Edited March 30, 2018 by Morch

[Khun Han]

If you take the time to read the various official Russian responses, they have been entirely consistent, and entirely in line with international law (which is something the UK government's response has not been).

 

There have been far to many inconsistencies and contradictions for them to be random mistakes. Read back through your series of posts in this thread. It's mostly a series of excuses for the government position. One or two excuses for one or two minor mistakes, fine. But the official story has become ludicrous, a comedy farce if it wasn't such a serious matter. 

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

If you take the time to read the various official Russian responses, they have been entirely consistent, and entirely in line with international law (which is something the UK government's response has not been).

 

There have been far to many inconsistencies and contradictions for them to be random mistakes. Read back through your series of posts in this thread. It's mostly a series of excuses for the government position. One or two excuses for one or two minor mistakes, fine. But the official story has become ludicrous, a comedy farce if it wasn't such a serious matter. 

 

The Russians responses in the previous case of a similar assassination, were not straightforward or helpful. The Russian response to the current case was either trolling (yeah, I know about international law...and still, trolling) or trying to shift blame. Considering past events, it's hard to take Russia's responses at face value. That you, apparently, do, and yet go on about being "rational", is odd.

 

And again, that you insist apparent inconsistencies and contradictions imply some design, possibly nefarious - does not make it so. Democratic governments being at a disarray at such times (and more so, nowadays) is pretty much the norm, not an anomaly. Most of the stuff put up in this topic (and others) to support such claims relies on petty details, minute linguistic "analysis", conjecture - and a whole lot of rubbish emanating from various partisan sources.

 

Similar patterns can be seen on many other topics.

[Basil B]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

4 hours ago, Khun Han said:

This is great news. But I'm baffled. The Russian defector who worked on the development of Novichoks stated that it's a persistent agent which causes irreversible damage, and results in certain death. So whatever Yulia and her dad were poisoned with (which was a strong enough dose to put them both in a coma), it can't possibly be a Novichok.

 

Could have been a version of, perhaps something less lethal as to not effect a larger area/more people. Could have been botched delivery. Or that for some unspecified reason, exposure wasn't quite as expected. I'd say that the first option may go a ways explaining difficulties in identification of the substance.

could have been that no one ingested, inhaled or absorbed sufficient amount of the toxin that results in "certain death".

 

One thing I am sure of is there is compelling evidence that implicates the Russians and can understand why this information is being withheld, I mean if you confronted your neighbour for having it of with your wife you ain't going to tell him how you know if it was that you saw them with a spy camera that you set up to watch his wife undress in their bedroom...  

Edited March 30, 2018 by Basil B

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The Russians responses in the previous case of a similar assassination, were not straightforward or helpful. The Russian response to the current case was either trolling (yeah, I know about international law...and still, trolling) or trying to shift blame. Considering past events, it's hard to take Russia's responses at face value. That you, apparently, do, and yet go on about being "rational", is odd.

 

And again, that you insist apparent inconsistencies and contradictions imply some design, possibly nefarious - does not make it so. Democratic governments being at a disarray at such times (and more so, nowadays) is pretty much the norm, not an anomaly. Most of the stuff put up in this topic (and others) to support such claims relies on petty details, minute linguistic "analysis", conjecture - and a whole lot of rubbish emanating from various partisan sources.

 

Similar patterns can be seen on many other topics.

 

Double post.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Khun Han

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

The Russians responses in the previous case of a similar assassination, were not straightforward or helpful. The Russian response to the current case was either trolling (yeah, I know about international law...and still, trolling) or trying to shift blame. Considering past events, it's hard to take Russia's responses at face value. That you, apparently, do, and yet go on about being "rational", is odd.

 

And again, that you insist apparent inconsistencies and contradictions imply some design, possibly nefarious - does not make it so. Democratic governments being at a disarray at such times (and more so, nowadays) is pretty much the norm, not an anomaly. Most of the stuff put up in this topic (and others) to support such claims relies on petty details, minute linguistic "analysis", conjecture - and a whole lot of rubbish emanating from various partisan sources.

 

Similar patterns can be seen on many other topics.

 

The similar assassination to which you refer will be the Litvinenko case. The official enquiry is widely perceived to have been botched. And you should inform yourself on the opinions of the Litvinenko family about who killed Alexander. They don't hold the same opinion as the UK government.