At U.N. nerve agent attack meeting, Russia tells Britain - 'You'll be sorry'

[ChouDoufu]

strange story.  deadliest. nerve. agent. ever.

employed by master assassins, with no antidote...

and a 66-year-old man is "improving rapidly" per the hospital.

 

perhaps it's time to just let it go, have the relatives pick 'em

up and take 'em home?

 

no, the british embassy has denied a visa to the yulia's cousin.

per home office, the application "did not comply with immigration

rules."  the cousin told bbc she did not have enough money in

her bank account to satisfy visa requirements.

 

sad.  bigly sad.

[Morch]

A whole lot of the usual TVF CSI in this topic. Apparently reading a few articles on a chemical substance makes one an expert. Same goes for police work. Or intelligence gathering. Or medical treatment. As much as I'm grateful of being part of such an informed online community, I think there might be a slight chance of people actually connected to the case knowing their stuff (not to knock off the armchair commentators).

 

 

[Morch]

11 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

 

Just wait a liitle longer and the UK will tell you what color shirt the chemist was wearing when he developed nerve agent.

 

Shouldn't actually be too difficult , because the stuff used was developed in the UK.

 

And you know that "the stuff used was developed in the UK", how?

[janclaes47]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

And you know that "the stuff used was developed in the UK", how?

 

I tell you my secret, as soon as you post the evidence that it was developed in Russia.

[Morch]

11 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

 

Think for yourself, novichok declared one of the deadliest nerve agents ever produced and 99% fatal, but a few weeks after the attack the victims that should be dead are actually partying in high street.

 

Novichok is a group, not a single compound. There would be (and there were) variations. Doesn't mean all would exhibit the same effects and traits, or would be similarly lethal. This doesn't take much thinking, actually included in quite a few of the many reports and stories on this.  

[janclaes47]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Novichok is a group, not a single compound. There would be (and there were) variations. Doesn't mean all would exhibit the same effects and traits, or would be similarly lethal. This doesn't take much thinking, actually included in quite a few of the many reports and stories on this.  

 

Included in the reports issued by the UK government?

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

 

I tell you my secret, as soon as you post the evidence that it was developed in Russia.

 

I'm not the one making up stuff. Not even imaginary inane claims. Novichok was developed in Russia. Whether the specific compound used was developed/made in Russia is another matter. I don't know that analysis of the compound remains will be sufficient to demonstrate this, and I doubt that such analysis is the only avenue of inquiry followed.

 

As for posting "evidence" - I'm not claiming to have some insider access. Why would you imagine I'd have such "evidence" or that I'd post it on an open forum if I did?

 

 

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

 

Included in the reports issued by the UK government?

 

Media stories and reports, some of which were linked on these topics or served as OP's.

Either improve your trolling or give it a rest.

[metisdead]

Another conspiracy troll post has been removed. 

[owl sees all]

Have another go; third time lucky.

 

Evidence is thin to say the least.

 

I don't buy the UK Gov's story one little bit.

 

This could result in May going and a pacifist at no. 10. (Trump wouldn't like that).

[ChouDoufu]

1 hour ago, janclaes47 said:

 

Included in the reports issued by the UK government?

so far, there is only ONE official report, that being the court filing used to justify additional blood samples, about 3 weeks after the poisoning.  you can google the text of that but it was pretty vague.  it claimed a positive indication for a nerve agent or similar compound, and the next sentence said the results would indicate a novachok agent or related substance.

 

other than that nothing but politicians making wild accusations.  the only actual reference to a specific "novachok" was the russian ambassador stating that the british foreign secretary said it was A-234, but that was when informing of the 36-hour deadline to explain, about a week after the poisoning, and too soon to have any reliable test results.

 

but what is a "novachok"?  i've read that the soviets used the program name "foliant" and designated each variation with A-xxx.  that article explained that "novachok" was a name given by western governments to classify a family of substances with similar chemical properties.  the soviet program was designed to create nerve agents that could be manufactured using common agricultural pesticides or fertilizers, be relatively easy to make (the hard part being not killing the lab workers and keeping it contained!), and not be detected by nato field testing gear.

 

so now we are holding out hope that the ocpw investigation will somehow "prove" russian guilt.  unfortunately, that's not how it works.  the job of the

ocpw in this type of situation is to determine the agent used, possibly also the method of delivery, but i haven't confirmed their procedures yet.  it has been noted in related news they are NOT responsible for determining WHO used any particular agent. 

 

from reading, it seems the ocpw bylaws would require russian participation in the investigation.  (i'll let someone else dig out the relevant treaty wording.) if the above is correct, no super secret intelligence would be shared with the russian delegation....not if the purpose of the investigation is to confirm the use of a banned substance and to correctly identify the agent used.  so why not look at the evidence the accused can provide?

 

just my opinion here, the point of excluding the russians is not to protect secrets or prevent russian interference, but to ensure the results will say it was a "novachok" (or related compound), and will probably include the "of a type developed by russia" wording in the final text.

Edited April 7, 2018 by ChouDoufu
formating!

[Morch]

 

@ChouDoufu

 

You (and others) seem to be making quite a fuss about the "similar compound", "of a type", "related substance" thing. Considering that there were and are variations, such comments would be  expected.

 

Similarly, you (and others) seem to focus almost solely on the identification of the compound used. While that's certainly a key issue, no one claimed it was the only piece of the puzzle, or the even the most decisive one. I don't think that the investigation and allegations are based solely on this.

 

Why should the UK trust Russia's sincerity, goodwill and objectivity on this?

[Rimmer]

A troll post has been removed

[ChouDoufu]

nowadays in politics you simply can't take any statement at face value.  with the public relations advisors and lawyers involved, especially with something so critical, every word must be parsed.

 

disclaimer:  i come from the land of "it depends what the meaning of is is."

 

if the formulation "of a type" or "related compound" or "similar substance" is used there is a reason for that. 

 

so far....we don't know what was used, we don't know who used it, we don't know where it came from, we don't know how they did it, we don't know...well....anything.

 

yet...." Boris Johnson has accused Vladimir Putin of personally ordering the nerve agent attack on Sergei Skripal "

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/16/boris-johnson-says-overwhelmingly-likely-putin-personally-ordered/

 

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

It's an RT interview. Reliable got little to do with it. And even if it was genuine, it wouldn't automatically make it correct.

 

Your reply above this one is daft enough, but the one quoted just about takes the biscuit! "even if it was genuine", yeah, right.....it's a clever animation? It's dubbed over?  Anyone with a balanced opinion would accept the Litvinenko family's views as genuine (hell, they've been expressing them often enough), even if they don't agree with them. It's issues such as this which expose slanted opinions and agenda .

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Novichok is a group, not a single compound. There would be (and there were) variations. Doesn't mean all would exhibit the same effects and traits, or would be similarly lethal. This doesn't take much thinking, actually included in quite a few of the many reports and stories on this.  

 

And the Russians, being the inventors of this group of substances, and world leaders on political assassination (even have a how-to training manual according to latest claims), used one of the inferior versions of novichok, and smeared it on the outside door handle of Sergei Skripal's house on a day when it was raining heavily and constantly. Yeah, right .

[rockingrobin]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Novichok is a group, not a single compound. There would be (and there were) variations. Doesn't mean all would exhibit the same effects and traits, or would be similarly lethal. This doesn't take much thinking, actually included in quite a few of the many reports and stories on this.  

Nobody has actually explained what is meant by the definition military grade novichok

[Krataiboy]

21 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

You do know that the Argentinian Junta, who were looking to divert attention from their dire performance and economic woes by invading The Falklands, started the Falkland's war don't you? 

 

Now, it's very unlikely the UK will be able to share all the intelligence, and the sources of that intelligence, in public. But it will have done so with the appropriate representatives of it's close allies. Hence the response from so many countries. 

 

You do know that the Argentinian Junta, who were looking to divert attention from their dire performance and economic woes by invading The Falklands, started the Falkland's war don't you? 

 

Of course.That's what politicians of all stripes do - or hadn't you noticed. Opportunity knocked and Thatcher grabbed it with both hands.

 

Now, it's very unlikely the UK will be able to share all the intelligence, and the sources of that intelligence, in public. But it will have done so with the appropriate representatives of it's close allies. Hence the response from so many countries. 

 

Pure surmise without a shred of evidence. Birds of a feather. . . 

 

Just like in Crimea, Ukraine, the Middle East, the Russians (and of course they're not alone), get exposed. And cover with lies and obfuscation.

 

It was the West which got exposed in their attempt to deny the Russians access to theri only Black Sea port and their egregious role in supplanting a legitimate Ukraine government with a bunch of fascists.

 

As for the Middle East, you clearly need reminding that it was the Russians who thwarted the takeover of Syria by ISIS and other CIA-supported jihadist groups recruited to pursue the dubious causes of Saudi's malignant wahabi version of Islam, and US imperialism.

 

When it comes to lies and obfuscation, the whoppers told by Bush and Blair which dragged us into this sorry mess will go down in history as being in a class of their own. People in glass houses. . . 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Krataiboy

[ChouDoufu]

i'd like to hear more about the video footage.  i've read quite a bit about the cctv coverage in britain, with millions and millions of cameras in operation. 

 

skripals lived in a ritzy area, so there surely must be multiple cameras.  i haven't bothered with google street view yet.......is it a limited-access gated community?  did the skripals have a camera covering the front door of their 350K pound house? 

 

was there any surveillance on the residence of a former russian spy if they are known to be fair game for russian assassins? 

 

yulia arrived the afternoon before the incident, and i'd guess the substance was allegedly applied to the door handle at night after the 4am heavy rain and before dawn.  at least before 8am, as one report on bbc had skripal's car seen in the city at about 9am.

 

should not have been much traffic in the neighborhood between let's say 4am and 6am.  otherwise there should be video of a ninja scaling walls in full hazmat gear.

[Morch]

5 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Your reply above this one is daft enough, but the one quoted just about takes the biscuit! "even if it was genuine", yeah, right.....it's a clever animation? It's dubbed over?  Anyone with a balanced opinion would accept the Litvinenko family's views as genuine (hell, they've been expressing them often enough), even if they don't agree with them. It's issues such as this which expose slanted opinions and agenda .

 

Daft would be pretending not to comprehend that "genuine" referred to the views aired by by the Litvinenko. Nothing to do with the nonsense you posted. To make it even clearer - coercion, manipulation and a whole lot of other things which can be applied by Russian agencies. 

[Morch]

5 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

And the Russians, being the inventors of this group of substances, and world leaders on political assassination (even have a how-to training manual according to latest claims), used one of the inferior versions of novichok, and smeared it on the outside door handle of Sergei Skripal's house on a day when it was raining heavily and constantly. Yeah, right .

 

Seems like you're hellbent on either misrepresenting my posts or exhibiting your lack of comprehension skills.

 

As said, I'm pretty sure that any such development program would include compounds of varying potency, modes of application and the like. Using a variant tailored for a lesser effect (as to not wipe out a whole town) would be one possible explanation. Unlike some of you CSI types, I'm reluctant to engage in minute examination of details which I have a very partial access to. But to answer some of your routine nonsense - covert operations are not fail proof, and perhaps more relevant when using exotic or new means.

 

I've claimed anything about a how-to manual or the substance being "inferior". These are things you brought up. Troll on.

 

[Khun Han]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Daft would be pretending not to comprehend that "genuine" referred to the views aired by by the Litvinenko. Nothing to do with the nonsense you posted. To make it even clearer - coercion, manipulation and a whole lot of other things which can be applied by Russian agencies. 

 

Gawd! Now he's making completely unfounded allegations that Walter Litvinenko has been coerced! Expect him to now prattle on about how Russia routinely terrorises it's citizens, or some-such, as 'proof' of his evidence-free allegation

[Morch]

5 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

Nobody has actually explained what is meant by the definition military grade novichok

 

If by "nobody" you mean an official explanation - could be right. That said, I think it applies to both the quality of the substance, and perhaps to ingredients/precursors which may indicate that state level facilities were used to produce it. The "military grade" reference would not necessarily be related to how potentially lethal the substance is/was.

 

I do agree that media-wise, a whole lot of statements were made, some of them obviously incorrect or inaccurate. But that's sort of how things are most times - there's a crisis, officials and politicians blabber, there's a need to issue statements. Part and parcel of democratic systems, you don't see this too often in Russia or China.

[Khun Han]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Seems like you're hellbent on either misrepresenting my posts or exhibiting your lack of comprehension skills.

 

As said, I'm pretty sure that any such development program would include compounds of varying potency, modes of application and the like. Using a variant tailored for a lesser effect (as to not wipe out a whole town) would be one possible explanation. Unlike some of you CSI types, I'm reluctant to engage in minute examination of details which I have a very partial access to. But to answer some of your routine nonsense - covert operations are not fail proof, and perhaps more relevant when using exotic or new means.

 

I've claimed anything about a how-to manual or the substance being "inferior". These are things you brought up. Troll on.

 

 

You really are just fantasising and making it up as you go along wrt to Russia and novichoks.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Gawd! Now he's making completely unfounded allegations that Walter Litvinenko has been coerced! Expect him to now prattle on about how Russia routinely terrorises it's citizens, or some-such, as 'proof' of his evidence-free allegation

 

The Russian government does not afford the same freedoms and rights to its citizens, as is the West. You wish to argue that as well?

 

I don't know that he was coerced, but it does seem odd changing one's tune 180 degrees. The venue being RT, which is (whether you like to accept it or not) a propaganda tool of the Russian government, does not lend the story much credibility. So no, wouldn't rule it out, really.

 

Now, are you quite finished with huffing and puffing over this side issue?

 

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

You really are just fantasising and making it up as you go along wrt to Russia and novichoks.

 

Which part do you consider to be a "fantasy" and/or "made up"?

[Khun Han]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

5 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

Nobody has actually explained what is meant by the definition military grade novichok

 

If by "nobody" you mean an official explanation - could be right. That said, I think it applies to both the quality of the substance, and perhaps to ingredients/precursors which may indicate that state level facilities were used to produce it. The "military grade" reference would not necessarily be related to how potentially lethal the substance is/was.

 

I do agree that media-wise, a whole lot of statements were made, some of them obviously incorrect or inaccurate. But that's sort of how things are most times - there's a crisis, officials and politicians blabber, there's a need to issue statements. Part and parcel of democratic systems, you don't see this too often in Russia or China.

 

"I do agree that media-wise, a whole lot of statements were made, some of them obviously incorrect or inaccurate. But that's sort of how things are most times - there's a crisis, officials and politicians blabber, there's a need to issue statements. Part and parcel of democratic systems, you don't see this too often in Russia or China."

 

Or: how to agree with oneself when making up a sweeping excuse for the Foreign Secretary and Ambassador to the Russian Federation telling blatant lies about an extremely serious international spat.

[Khun Han]

Just now, Morch said:

7 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

You really are just fantasising and making it up as you go along wrt to Russia and novichoks.

 

Which part do you consider to be a "fantasy" and/or "made up"?

 

That Russia has a whole array of ready-to-use novichoks

[Morch]

Just now, Khun Han said:

 

"I do agree that media-wise, a whole lot of statements were made, some of them obviously incorrect or inaccurate. But that's sort of how things are most times - there's a crisis, officials and politicians blabber, there's a need to issue statements. Part and parcel of democratic systems, you don't see this too often in Russia or China."

 

Or: how to agree with oneself when making up a sweeping excuse for the Foreign Secretary and Ambassador to the Russian Federation telling blatant lies about an extremely serious international spat.

 

I wasn't referring specifically to this or that statement, that's your own interpretation. Wouldn't find me defending BJ on this one, or on many others of his inane comments.

[Morch]

Just now, Khun Han said:

 

That Russia has a whole array of ready-to-use novichoks

 

That Novichok is a group (or family) of substances/compounds is  covered in some of the reports and stories appearing on these topics. The same with regard to there being different variants. I said nothing about Russia having a "whole array" (your exaggeration), and nothing  whatsoever was said about "ready-to-use".