Older Persons Budget, UK, how much?

[Gruff]

4 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

Need to know how much money the guy has to buy a one bedroom flat? What type of income does he have? Pensions or other incomes, how many and how much in total?

 

Taking an educated guess, after purchasing a property, about £300 per week in the UK would be a reasonable estimate that would get him by if he`s careful with his spending.

 

 

£200 of that will go on council tax maintenance and bills. He won't be enjoying himself much on anything else but it is doable and you could still eat well and drink OK as long as you stay home every night !

[Gruff]

5 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Based on what Vogie said earlier I've revisited the cost of renting versus buying and it does indeed make sense at his age, especially given his desire to preserve capital to pass along to others.

 

At £450 month rental per month for a one bed (per Rightmove) the annual net cost is only around £2,500 per year since interest income on the bulk of his capital will make up the difference - all his other costs are the same in both scenarios.

 

I believe I will try again to convince him on this point, many thanks Vogie, I'm grateful.

 

I still wouldn't mind though getting closer on the supermarket costs, if anyone can provide input.

 

Many thanks

100% agree re the renting i think it would be a mistake  but it seems to be in an Englishman's blood to want to buy. Supermarket i always reckoned food alone £7 per day £50 per week. Supermarket prices in UK are very similar to Thailand

Edited April 15, 2018 by Gruff

[Craig krup]

He'll lose everything - including the house - if he has a stroke and ends up in a care home. My old pal Griff was milked for a shade under £3,500 a month until it was nearly all gone. 

 

If someone in their seventies isn't eating foie gras out of Jennifer Lawrence's belly button I can't see how £100 a month isn't enough. Have you been to Aldi?! 

[cyberfarang]

14 minutes ago, Gruff said:

£200 of that will go on council tax maintenance and bills. He won't be enjoying himself much on anything else but it is doable and you could still eat well and drink OK as long as you stay home every night !

This is more or less what I said. On £300 a week, he won`t be enjoying champagne dinners, going out socialising several times per week, buying designer clothes. Probably won`t be able to afford a car if he requires his own transport that will limit his traveling capabilities. So he would be living a very basic lifestyle. That is of course if he will beon £300 a week? If not and less, I wouldn`t even consider returning to the UK. 

 

Also UK property prices are astronomical, unless he buys in a run down area, with high crime rates surrounded by loads of local authority housing and the lower members of society. Doubt he could get used to that after living long term in Thailand.

Edited April 15, 2018 by cyberfarang

[Gruff]

3 minutes ago, Craig krup said:

He'll lose everything - including the house - if he has a stroke and ends up in a care home. My old pal Griff was milked for a shade under £3,500 a month until it was nearly all gone. 

 

If someone in their seventies isn't eating foie gras out of Jennifer Lawrence's belly button I can't see how £100 a month isn't enough. Have you been to Aldi?! 

That is a very real consideration whether he rents or buys.

 

[Craig krup]

5 minutes ago, Gruff said:

100% agree re the renting i think it would be a mistake  but it seems to be in an Englishman's blood to want to buy. Supermarket i always reckoned food alone £7 per day £50 per week. Supermarket prices in UK are very similar to Thailand

 

Pork and chicken's a little cheaper in Thailand, but for all farang food the UK is much cheaper. Oats, milk, cheese, apples, anything branded...Even rice is 17.8 baht a kg at today's rate. Spaghetti is the same price - compare that to Lotus. Four liters of milk is 66.5 baht in the UK. And then there are the offers. Price wars break out all the time. Over Easter I was drowning in dirt cheap veg - massive red cabbage, 1 kg of carrots, three big leeks, all 19p (8.4 baht). 

[Craig krup]

1 minute ago, Gruff said:

That is a very real consideration whether he rents or buys.

 

Damn sight harder to hide the house, though!

[Gruff]

14 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

This is more or less what I said. On £300 a week, he won`t be enjoying champagne dinners, going out socialising several times per week, buying designer clothes. Probably won`t be able to afford a car if he requires his own transport that will limit his traveling capabilities. So he would be living a very basic lifestyle. That is of course if he will beon £300 a week? If not and less, I wouldn`t even consider returning to the UK. 

 

Also UK property prices are astronomical, unless he buys in a run down area, with high crime rates surrounded by loads of local authority housing and the lower members of society. Doubt he could get used to that after living long term in Thailand.

 

I agree but it won't give hime much of a lifestyle or many airfares back to Thailand for visits

Edited April 15, 2018 by Gruff

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

If he paid up all his NI contributions he will be getting a UK pension, which should revert to the full amount when he gets back.

Unless he drinks large amounts of expensive whine (pun intended) the shopping bill should be more in the £150+/month area.

Lancaster is fairly cheap to buy, single occupant pensioner council tax should be discounted and not excessive for a small flat. Renting first is a good idea so you can check out the neighborhood.

Thermal underwear, jumpers and waterproof jackets etc shouldn't cost too much.

Heating and cooking  (gas/electric) could be more if he is used to the warm climate here, it depends on the unpredictable weather. It costs less to stay cool here than warm in the UK.

Taxi home from the pub depends on how far it is (£1+ a mile after the £2+ meter start), and a pint in Lancaster is not much more than many "Irish" type bars charge here.

 

However being away so long NHS cover is unlikely. The cost of private care is not cheap at his age.

 

Best of luck to him.

 

Edited April 15, 2018 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[partington]

36 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

 

However being away so long NHS cover is unlikely. The cost of private care is not cheap at his age.

 

Best of luck to him.

 

This is completely untrue. You become entitled to NHS treatment as soon as you become UK resident, however long you have been away and even if you have never paid a single penny in taxes or National Insurance.

The UK NHS is a residence-based, not contribution-based health system.  You are entitled legally to hospital treatment free at point of delivery on the first day of an indefinite long term stay in the UK.

 

A long-term rental agreement, internet contract or driving license with your address on it is enough to prove your residence and therefore entitlement, if you are asked.

 

Just as an addon I agree with Craig krup above, almost every single item I buy in the supermarket  back in the UK is cheaper than Thailand was: a pleasant surprise.

Edited April 15, 2018 by partington

[simoh1490]

5 hours ago, moe666 said:

Since he has his mind made up and not taking advice, I would say Bye Bye what is the point of you wasteing your time. I am 72 this chap doesn't seem like he really need advice

That's not necessary, he's a very good friend. People are allowed to do what they want to, especially at age 70, just because he doesn't want to do what I think is right doesn't mean that I'm right and he's wrong!

[simoh1490]

4 hours ago, saakura said:

Complete nonsense. I stay right next to a big (Wat Tha Thong) on Sukhumvit Road in Bangkok which has gas fired burners, like many (& i suppose all) other temples. And for the record, in the last 25 years here, I have attended many many cremations at various temples. Not once have i seen people crowding the burning corpse pouring petrol over it from bottles. 

We have different experiences then, I've never seen one gas fired crematorium here and I've been to nothing but petrol bottle style cremations.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

35 minutes ago, partington said:

This is completely untrue. You become entitled to NHS treatment as soon as you become UK resident, however long you have been away and even if you have never paid a single penny in taxes or National Insurance.

The UK NHS is a residence-based, not contribution-based health system.  You are entitled legally to hospital treatment free at point of delivery on the first day of an indefinite long term stay in the UK.

 

A long-term rental agreement, internet contract or driving license with your address on it is enough to prove your residence and therefore entitlement, if you are asked.

 

Just as an addon I agree with Craig krup above, almost every single item I buy in the supermarket  back in the UK is cheaper than Thailand was: a pleasant surprise.

I think you need to check some facts. None-resident (outside of the EU) for over 2 years now disqualifies expats from FREE NHS care.

I do agree that food is no longer cheap in Thailand, but it depends what you eat, where you eat and where you shop.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2018 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[simoh1490]

1 minute ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

I think you need to check some facts. None-resident for over 2 years now disqualifies expats from FREE NHS care.

I do agree that food is no longer cheap in Thailand, but it depends what you eat, where you eat and where you shop.

 

 

Sorry George I don't agree, the documentation from the NHS is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-on-overseas-visitors-hospital-charging-regulations

[partington]

23 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

I think you need to check some facts. None-resident (outside of the EU) for over 2 years now disqualifies expats from FREE NHS care.

I do agree that food is no longer cheap in Thailand, but it depends what you eat, where you eat and where you shop.

 

 

You would not be an expat, that's the whole point!

 

When you have moved back to the UK, and can show you have, you are no longer an expat and are entitled to NHS care from day 1. 

[Damrongsak]

14 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

... One thing he said to me recently when we were driving past the temple where they burn bodies......he said, have you ever seen that process, three or four chaps stood there pouring bottles of petrol onto the corpse and afterwards, taking a shovel to sift the big bone fragments from the dust, it's disgusting and degrading - I couldn't disagree. ...

I worked in Thailand settling refugees from Thailand for a year back in 1979/80.  Upon return to the USA,  we came to know a Laotian/Chinese family.  When the old Grandmother died, they had her cremated.  They requested "chunky" style, so they had something in the urn that could rattle, I suppose.  No kidding.  Cooked to order - medium well done.  It's an Asian thing.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

46 minutes ago, partington said:

You would not be an expat, that's the whole point!

 

When you have moved back to the UK, and can show you have, you are no longer an expat and are entitled to NHS care from day 1. 

No!

The point is if you have not been resident in the UK (or EU) for over 2 years you need to reestablish residency before NHS care is free.

With no property in the UK  and being away for 22 years he will most likely have problems as he will still be an expat in under the rules.

I can look up the regulations, but I'm not about to do that now.

Have a look yourself if you don't believe me. I would be most interested in what you find out to support your claims.

 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2018 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[partington]

34 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

No!

The point is if you have not been resident in the UK (or EU) for over 2 years you need to reestablish residency before NHS care is free.

With no property in the UK  and being away for 22 years he will most likely have problems as he will still be an expat in under the rules.

I can look up the regulations, but I'm not about to do that now.

Have a look yourself if you don't believe me. I would be most interested in what you find out to support your claims.

 

 

 

You've already been supplied with the evidence link to UK Gov by simoh1490 above.

 

Here is a direct quote from a document there [just add ".pdf "to the following link to consult it in full]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/496967/lawfully-resident-uk

 

"1. Entitlement to free NHS hospital treatment is principally based on Ordinary Residence (OR) in the UK. An overseas visitor is any person who is not “ordinarily resident” in the UK. A person will be “ordinarily resident” in the UK when that residence is lawful, adopted voluntary, and for settled purposes as part of the regular order of their life for the time being, whether of short or long duration. 

[ ]

3. A person may be considered ordinarily resident in the UK, and therefore outside the scope of the Charging Regulations, if he or she is living lawfully here (and the other requirements of the ordinary residence test are met). Whilst a non-EEA national subject to immigration control needs to have the immigration status of indefinite leave to remain (ILR) to be able to pass the ordinary residence test, other individuals do not need to be permanent or indefinite residents in order to be ordinarily resident here. Lawful, properly settled residence here for the time being is sufficient. 

[ ]

5. “British citizens” have an automatic right of abode in the UK. A British citizen who has been living abroad, or who is migrating to the UK for the first time, can therefore pass the ordinary residence test upon taking up settled residence here 

{My addition: Clearly this tells you that someone who has never ever lived in the UK at all becomes resident as soon as taking up settled residence: no restablishing residence possible, or necessary!}

[ ]

7. To meet the definition of being “settled” in the UK from this immigration context, a person must have indefinite leave to enter or remain, which means he is free from any restriction on the period for which he may remain, and be ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom."

 

Here is another 

 

https://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutNHSservices/uk-visitors/moving-to-england/Pages/moving-to-england-from-the-eea.aspx

"The NHS operates a residence-based healthcare system and not every person is entitled to free NHS treatment in England. Provision of free NHS treatment is on the basis of being ordinarily resident and is not dependent upon nationality, payment of UK taxes, national insurance (NI) contributions, being registered with a GP, having an NHS number or owning property in the UK. Ordinarily resident means, broadly speaking, living in the UK on a lawful and properly settled basis for the time being.

If you are not ordinarily resident in the UK, you are considered to be an overseas visitor and may be charged for NHS hospital services."

Edited April 15, 2018 by partington

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

ordinarily resident in the UK

7 minutes ago, partington said:

If you are not ordinarily resident in the UK, you are considered to be an overseas visitor and may be charged for NHS hospital services."

This link is either out of date or missing recent relevant regulation amendments or the small print.

 

Quote: "ordinarily resident in the UK" is the key to this.

If you have not resided in the UK (or EU) for over 2 years (the part missed): "you are considered to be an overseas visitor and may be charged for NHS hospital services."
 

I believe the chap returning after 22 years with no family, residence, or even a library card he might not get the welcome he is expecting from the NHS unfortunately.

Good luck to him.

Anyway, I would be delighted if you are correct.

 

(I could PM you with an experience I had after returning to the UK after 4 years away.)

 

 

[partington]

2 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

ordinarily resident in the UK

This link is either out of date or missing recent relevant regulation amendments or the small print.

 

Quote: "ordinarily resident in the UK" is the key to this.

If you have not resided in the UK (or EU) for over 2 years (the part missed): "you are considered to be an overseas visitor and may be charged for NHS hospital services."
 

I believe the chap returning after 22 years with no family, residence, or even a library card he might not get the welcome he is expecting from the NHS unfortunately.

Good luck to him.

Anyway, I would be delighted if you are correct.

 

(I could PM you with an experience I had after returning to the UK after 4 years away.)

 

 

More for other people's reassurance than to convince you, as you are evidently one of those people who are unable to acknowledge an error, this is  the third independent written account of the rules for NHS eligibility and returning from abroad that shows your beliefs are incorrect.

 

It is from Age Uk , the UK's largest charity organisation focused on helping older people. A large part of their work involves giving advice, and this is from their factsheet on returning from abroad, updated in December 2017, that is four months ago. It is in full agreement with the official UK government and  official NHS websites quoted separately before which you also choose not to believe.

 

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs25_returning_from_abroad_fcs.pdf

5 Doctors, dentists and hospital treatment

The UK has a residency based healthcare system. This means provision of NHS treatment is based on being ‘ordinarily resident’ in the UK, not on your nationality, payment of UK taxes or national insurance contributions, owning a property, being registered with a GP or having an NHS number.

A British citizen who resumes settled residence in the UK is immediately entitled to free NHS care [my emphasis].

Edited April 15, 2018 by partington

[simoh1490]

I very vaguely recall that there is a tieof UK benefits that involve a waiting period before they can be claimed by returning expats but for the life of me I can't recall which, it certainly wasn't the NHS however.

[simoh1490]

On the subject of renting:

 

are there issues that the returning expat faces by not having been UK resident for some years, presumably agents and utility suppliers will check the credit history and there wont be any, that kind of thing?

[theoldgit]

On the subject of renting:
 
are there issues that the returning expat faces by not having been UK resident for some years, presumably agents and utility suppliers will check the credit history and there wont be any, that kind of thing?

Yes there are, whilst I support the rental option there are hurdles to cross including establishing credit worthiness when renting a property.
The same would be true when opening a bank account, though I think there are now basic accounts and credit cards available for those with an expired credit history, I’m also not sure that you can transfer your driving history when seeking a no claim bonus.
When I was considering relocating following a heart attack a little over four years ago I came across an expat forum which discussed many of these issues, I’ll see if I can find it shortly.

[theoldgit]

28 minutes ago, theoldgit said:

When I was considering relocating following a heart attack a little over four years ago I came across an expat forum which discussed many of these issues, I’ll see if I can find it shortly.

This is it, I found it quite useful  http://britishexpats.com/forum/moving-back-uk-61/

[Retiredandhappyhere]

19 hours ago, stropper said:

absolute bar sitting coversation bullshit, go to a burn and see for yourself, 90% are gas fired now, even in the county were they use timber in a paddock area the fire is so intense there is nothing left, why do you poms always try to bend the truth,  at least its great  that we are getting rid of another whinger !

GOT IT IN FOR "POMS" HAVE YOU BY ANY CHANCE?  What exactly makes you think that the guy wishing to return to the UK after 22 years here is a "whinger"?  In his twilight years he merely wants to return to his home country with its nostalgic memories for him, which might turn out to be a bit of a disappointment for him, but there is no need to insult him for his choice.  Perhaps the poster who referred to the "ball tamperer" incident hit a nerve.

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, possum1931 said:

In Scotland as far as I know, you can only use it there, I would expect it is the same in Wales and Northern Ireland.

Certainly true about Scotland but quite recent. Before I went last year I checked the Scottish Stagecoach website and it said they accepted all senior concession cards but the machine rejected mine from SYT. I mentioned it to my brother and he said that not long ago they had all been issued with new cards for Scotland. I see that the Stagecoach website has now been amended.

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

I still wouldn't mind though getting closer on the supermarket costs, if anyone can provide input.

 

Many thanks

Bit like how long is a piece of string? It all depends on what you want to eat and where you want to buy. There is a huge difference between places like M & S and Lidl. If you shop regularly and prepare your own meat and veg, costs can be fairly low for a single person. I used to cook for 2 and freeze half. If however you want pre prepared or organic the costs can very quickly escalate.

If he is not familiar with the UK then he should be come acquainted with the JD Wetherspoon premises, you can eat and drink in there at substantially lower prices than most other hostelries.

[Tofer]

13 hours ago, partington said:

I've just returned to  the UK and am renting while I look for a place to buy.

 

I 'm younger than 70 (62) and am going to buy because I don't want to be in the situation of always being able to be turfed out at a landlord's whim with two months notice, and could benefit from capital gains on a purchase (even though I am living in London). Also London rents are so huge that renting would feel too much like throwing vast sums down the toilet for the rest of your life.  However it is certainly true that renting would free up far more capital.

 

I am lucky in that I was aware from a very young age that a UK State Pension represents basic poverty line living and so took out every other pension I could afford. My US private one withdrawn as a lump sum is helping me to buy a 2 bed flat, and I have a UK private, UK state and US State coming on line within the next 5 years, which together with investments will come to over 30,000GBP so I don't have a problem thank goodness.

 

My outgoings last month in London :

1300  rent

internet/phone/tv package 30

water 30

gas/electric 31  (gas is three times cheaper than electricity so always choose gas heating)

council tax 95

tv license 12.25

travel 0  (London 60+ card bus rail tube all free)

food/entertainment/booze/ coffees eating out etc 480  (no attempt to economise at all)

 

If you exclude rent which will disappear soon it's around 700 per month.

 

I would agree with your choice to buy considering the high rents and appreciation potential in London. But for Simoh's friend the North, I believe, is not so buoyant in terms of property values, although I confess I know little about the Lancaster area. My area is West Yorkshire and it's fairly stagnant there, or was when I last left 2 years ago.

 

He also needs to factor in the costs of buying, and eventually selling, furnishing, upgrading / improving to his tastes, carpets, curtains, kitchen equipment, washing machines, tv's etc, etc.

 

I would definitely suggest a 6 month rental contract somewhere until he finds his feet and is convinced it's still his desire.

[Tofer]

4 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

On the subject of renting:

 

are there issues that the returning expat faces by not having been UK resident for some years, presumably agents and utility suppliers will check the credit history and there wont be any, that kind of thing?

Yes potentially. If he has no recent credit history or proof of residence / electoral roll registration, no previous landlord references he will struggle.

 

I had the same problem back in the late 90's returning from an extended period overseas. Simple open a local bank account and get a credit card to start building credit score, even take out a small loan and repay it early.

 

The immediate solution is to pay the contract period (6-12mths) in advance plus bond. I sometimes accept an uplift in bond of double rate plus first 6 months on a 12 month contract. Also a guarantor would be acceptable, all providing he can show adequate income to qualify under the referencing rules, which in my properties cases is an annual income of more than 30 X the monthly rent, i.e. Rent @ £500 pcm x 30 = £15,000 / ann.

 

From what you said earlier about his income / cash status I would imagine this will not be a problem for him, I presume.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Tofer

[PerkinsCuthbert]

21 hours ago, Sprigger said:

Where ever he decided to settle other than London, I can assure you it is  cheaper to live in the UK. than here in the Land of Scams. I know because I do 6 months about and have done for past 15yrs.  Thailand is played out as a cheap destination if the sun didn’t shine not a sole would visit 

You mean fish come too?