Israeli forces kill dozens in Gaza as U.S. Embassy opens in Jerusalem

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

No, the source doesn't, but that sources extreme bias and their twisting of events to suit their agenda does invalidate their opinion. 

In which case the criticism should be on the twisting of events, not on the source itself. So refute the opinion, fine, but a simple 'the source is biased' is not a valid argument, especially not when it refers to an opinion.

[Kieran00001]

49 minutes ago, stevenl said:

In which case the criticism should be on the twisting of events, not on the source itself. So refute the opinion, fine, but a simple 'the source is biased' is not a valid argument, especially not when it refers to an opinion.

 

Yes, I was agreeing with you.

[dexterm]

16 hours ago, Morch said:

 

"You dehumanize and blame the victims."

 

You do that quite often when casualties are on the other side. But guess that's quite alright.

 

Deliberate lies. No links as per usual. I have expressed sympathy for the loved ones of Israelis killed in the conflict, especially children. All lives cut short unnecessarily are tragedies. Whereas I have never heard a word of compassion from you, just cold blooded endorsement of the efficacy of using live ammunition to control crowds.

[dexterm]

14 hours ago, Morch said:

 

You can always be counted upon to pull some not-directly related, biased, historical "account" when no worthwhile comment on the topic at hand is possible.

 

The same Fisk piece was linked by you years ago (literally) on another topic, while posting pretty much a similar rant. As back then, I'll highlight the creative license employed by Fisk in order to make a more emotionally compelling point.

 

Fisk goes on about Huj. And the story of Huj is worth telling, because even in the context of that war, the injustice was blatant, and the treatment unfair. Fisk also goes on about Sderot - which back then was quite a bit in the news, what with rockets launched from Gaza and such. Linking Huj to Sderot is all very well, only Huj wasn't really were Sderot is.

 

Sderot (and another settlement, Or Haner) was founded on the lands previously comprising the village of Najd. Najd doesn't feature as much in Fisk's story, though, because it doesn't create quite the same "equation". Relations between Najd and its Israeli (well, Jewish back then) neighbors weren't as great. But Huj does make for a much better emotional angle, so why waste that?

 

Huj was situated a bit to the South East of Najd (nowadays Sderot). The nearby Israeli settlement of Dorot (mentioned in the link) was founded in 1941 on lands bought from Huj villagers. After the war, most of Huj's lands were joined with Dorot's.

 

If Fisk wasn't busy constructing an inaccurate account, he could possibly have made a more accurate and emotional account by figuring out that the nearest site to Huj of old, is a hill, where Ariel Sharon's family graves are located.

 

So the bottom line after your pedantic land survey is that: the Palestinian village of Huj ("of old" as you quaintly call it) has now been demolished by Israelis as were hundreds of other Palestinian villages and their inhabitants ethnically cleansed into Gaza in order to manufacture an artificial Jewish majority in Israel.

 

I was responding to a poster who seemed to think that the Palestinians have no right to cross the fence into Israel, as though they were aliens, when in fact it is the Israeli Jews who are the foreign invaders, and the Palestinians simply want to return home. Hence the name of their protest: the "Great March of Return".

Edited May 18, 2018 by dexterm

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

So the bottom line after your pedantic land survey is that: the Palestinian village of Huj ("of old" as you quaintly call it) has now been demolished by Israelis as were hundreds of other Palestinian villages and their inhabitants ethnically cleansed into Gaza in order to manufacture an artificial Jewish majority in Israel.

I was responding to a poster who seemed to think that the Palestinians have no right to cross the fence into Israel, as though they were aliens, when in fact it is the Israeli Jews who are the foreign invaders, and the Palestinians simply want to return home. Hence the name of their protest: the "Great March of Return".

'Foreign invaders'. Might as well just print out the whole Hamas propaganda without edit. Oh Wait!.........

Edited May 18, 2018 by SheungWan

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

Deliberate lies. No links as per usual. I have expressed sympathy for the loved ones of Israelis killed in the conflict, especially children. All lives cut short unnecessarily are tragedies. Whereas I have never heard a word of compassion from you, just cold blooded endorsement of the efficacy of using live ammunition to control crowds.

 

No, not lies. And no "links" as we've been through this numerous times, with you denying things even when provided with such (you'll probably deny even this - which, of course, you did in the past). You often make questionable comments when with regard to attacks occurring in Jerusalem and the West Bank. And you do employ the same argument about it being the parents' and/or the government's responsibility.

 

As for your standing complaint (which was addressed at least a couple of times on this topic alone) - not all of us feel the need for faux emotional exhibitionism, or see it as an appropriate point scoring tool. You'll notice I don't play this angle, or the sort of emotional drama others favor, with regard to Israeli casualties as well. Additionally, not all of posters  self-advertise being great "humanists" - those who do, may be rightfully called out when their double-standards become apparent.

[Ron19]

A troll post has been removed.

[Thorgal]

That's too easy. The source may be suspect to you, that doesn't invalidate the opinion.
 
And yes, IMO we expect more from Israel than from the Palestinians, rightfully so. But also Israel is never held accountable.

From his article posted earlier as ‘balanced’ :

“No decent Palestinian society can emerge from the culture of victimhood, violence and fatalism symbolized by these protests.

No worthy Palestinian government can emerge if the international community continues to indulge the corrupt, anti-Semitic autocrats of the Palestinian Authority or fails to condemn and sanction the despotic killers of Hamas.

And no Palestinian economy will ever flourish through repeated acts of self-harm and destructive provocation.”

He wrote this eternal crapola from his eternal capital...


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

So the bottom line after your pedantic land survey is that: the Palestinian village of Huj ("of old" as you quaintly call it) has now been demolished by Israelis as were hundreds of other Palestinian villages and their inhabitants ethnically cleansed into Gaza in order to manufacture an artificial Jewish majority in Israel.

 

I was responding to a poster who seemed to think that the Palestinians have no right to cross the fence into Israel, as though they were aliens, when in fact it is the Israeli Jews who are the foreign invaders, and the Palestinians simply want to return home. Hence the name of their protest: the "Great March of Return".

 

Like Fisk, you seem to be more focused on the pushed narrative's theme, rather than it being accurate. Accordingly, it is quite alright for Fisk to carry an inaccurate "land survey", as long as it serves the cause - but the "pedantic" label applied when the inaccuracies are addressed.

 

And, of course, there was no denial of the tragedy as you try to spin, nor was it even the point. The post took issue with the "creative" use of facts in order to manufacture an "improved" narrative. IMO, that's unnecessary, you obviously feel differently.

 

The Palestinians do not, indeed have a "right" to cross the fence into Israel. Their supposed Right of Return does not entail that they can do so however and whenever they wish. Such things are usually resolved by diplomacy and negotiations, not rushing of fences.

 

The "simply want to return home" slogan is intentionally misleading. The homes alluded to no longer exist. There are other people living there now, and they've been there for decades. Nothing in your propaganda rendering addresses the issue, or the consequences of a violent Palestinian crowd actually managing to cross the fence and reaching the sites of their former homes. How the protests were labeled is immaterial.

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, Thorgal said:

 

From his article posted earlier as ‘balanced’ :

“No decent Palestinian society can emerge from the culture of victimhood, violence and fatalism symbolized by these protests.

No worthy Palestinian government can emerge if the international community continues to indulge the corrupt, anti-Semitic autocrats of the Palestinian Authority or fails to condemn and sanction the despotic killers of Hamas.

And no Palestinian economy will ever flourish through repeated acts of self-harm and destructive provocation.”

He wrote this eternal crapola from his eternal capital...


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Yes, better. Now you talk about the content, not the medium.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Thorgal said:

 

From his article posted earlier as ‘balanced’ :

“No decent Palestinian society can emerge from the culture of victimhood, violence and fatalism symbolized by these protests.

No worthy Palestinian government can emerge if the international community continues to indulge the corrupt, anti-Semitic autocrats of the Palestinian Authority or fails to condemn and sanction the despotic killers of Hamas.

And no Palestinian economy will ever flourish through repeated acts of self-harm and destructive provocation.”

He wrote this eternal crapola from his eternal capital...


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

In your own "balanced" and "learned" view - can a decent Palestinian society emerge from a culture of victimhood, violence and fatalism symbolized by these protests? Can a worthy Palestinian government emerge given the international indulgence of the PA often corrupt, sometimes antisemitic leadership? Or despite the failure to condemn Hamas actions? How does setting up facilities benefited from, or engaging in other self-harm provocation assist Palestinian economy?

 

 

[Morch]

7 hours ago, Kiwiken said:

Of course Israel is within its rights to shoot dead people hurling rocks and things at the wall . Palestinians for what ever reason protesting their rights.

If you support this I guess you justify Kent State University shootings. Or that it would be acceptable for the USA to put miniguns on its border with Mexico. or that European nations should openly sink refugee boats?

Hamas may not be the best voice for the palestinian.

Of course Israel should not be recognised as a Jewish state anymore than i recognise any self proclaimed religious states. All faiths have the right to coexist.

Therefore Israel should declare itself a Secular state and cease discrimination against other faiths

 

And you are within your right to post pretty much whatever you like, inaccurate or irrelevant as it may be.

 

Not a word on them Palestinians carrying arms, setting up IED's or them not intending to cross the fence for a handshake and a cuppa. Protesting rights does not compel violence, nor does it imply protestors can do whatever they like. The bogus "examples" given as comparison fail to address that the case at hand deals with hostiles, led by an organization with a well known agenda and history of violence.

 

While issuing pronouncements on what Israel should be recognized at, you may want to look around the ME and apply the same to other countries, not holding my breath. Of course, not a word on the rulers of Gaza, the Hamas,  being an Islamic movement. Or for that matter, the Palestinian Constitution (yes, the one associated with the PA) referencing both Islam and Sharia as underlying concepts. Certainly no expectations of acknowledging that Jews often refer to themselves both as a religion and a group.

 

Regarding "discrimination against other faiths" - not that it's much on topic, really, but guess it's a matter of perspective. Relative to "the West", Israel certainly lags behind. Compared to how things are at its neighborhood - an altogether different story.

 

 

[Morch]

15 hours ago, bristolboy said:

.Pot calling the porcelain black.

[metisdead]

Another troll post has been removed.

 

 

Keep in mind that outside of this forum, nobody really cares what you are saying. You aren't changing anybody's minds, or affecting the situation in any way so it's not worth getting all wound up about. Things will go on pretty much the same, regardless of what you type here, so it's hardly worth getting suspended over.

If you can't discuss these issues without losing your cool, please don't post in these topics.
 

[Ron19]

A post against forum rules has been removed.

[Kiwiken]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

And you are within your right to post pretty much whatever you like, inaccurate or irrelevant as it may be.

 

Not a word on them Palestinians carrying arms, setting up IED's or them not intending to cross the fence for a handshake and a cuppa. Protesting rights does not compel violence, nor does it imply protestors can do whatever they like. The bogus "examples" given as comparison fail to address that the case at hand deals with hostiles, led by an organization with a well known agenda and history of violence.

 

While issuing pronouncements on what Israel should be recognized at, you may want to look around the ME and apply the same to other countries, not holding my breath. Of course, not a word on the rulers of Gaza, the Hamas,  being an Islamic movement. Or for that matter, the Palestinian Constitution (yes, the one associated with the PA) referencing both Islam and Sharia as underlying concepts. Certainly no expectations of acknowledging that Jews often refer to themselves both as a religion and a group.

 

Regarding "discrimination against other faiths" - not that it's much on topic, really, but guess it's a matter of perspective. Relative to "the West", Israel certainly lags behind. Compared to how things are at its neighborhood - an altogether different story.

 

 

I saw no proof of Protestors or anyone planting IED's or carrying arms. Did not realise an 8 month old baby was a weapon. I watched Western and other news reports. Guess we only get the sanitised ones.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Kiwiken said:

I saw no proof of Protestors or anyone planting IED's or carrying arms. Did not realise an 8 month old baby was a weapon. I watched Western and other news reports. Guess we only get the sanitised ones.

 

I have no idea what reports you watch, or what you may consider "proof". As for news coverage being sanitized - yes, to a degree. Unless one follows local (Israel/Palestinian) reports, the coverage is certainly lacking, relative to the noise it generates. The apparent notion that Western news reporters have free, unlimited access on both sides of the border is unreal and incorrect.

 

What is odd, though (well, not really...) is reports based on Israeli media and/or IDF, footage are often automatically rejected by some posters (even when these appear in media outlets they usually praise). The same posters (and many others) see no issues accepting Palestinian (as in Hamas, or the Palestinian Ministry of Health, run by Hamas) reports and footage as gospel. Playing this game gets tedious, and there's no obligation to partake. There were links provided on several of the topics dealing with the protests, feel free to ignore them if you like.

 

In a recent statement, Nikolay Mladenov, the UN Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, said (among other thing, the full statement linked bellow, that "Hamas, which controlled Gaza, must not use the protests as cover to place bombs at the perimeter fence or hide among protestors to threaten civilian lives."

https://www.un.org/press/en/2018/sc13338.doc.htm

 

Six Hamas men play with explosives, it goes wrong. Who's to blame? Israel. Want to guess if they were added to the casualty list?

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/explosion-rocks-central-gaza-strip-fatalities-reported-1.6055148

 

Hamas officials say many of the protestors killed were Hamas people  (which was pretty much what Israeli officials claimed). This comes on top of Islamic Jihad identifying some of the casualties as their people, and earlier instances in which Hamas officially acknowledged deaths of operatives.

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/50-of-dead-in-gaza-protest-were-hamas-activists-says-hamas-official-1.6094899

 

With regard to the infant's death - after the initial report by the Ministry of Health in Gaza, a local doctor told AP there was a a local doctor she may have died due to an preexisting condition, and that she was sick prior to events. As for taking an infant to a violent protest - beats me, both with regard to the family, and local authorities. Might as well ask who's exploiting her death, using it as a propaganda "weapon".

 

This bit is hidden somewhere midway this story:

http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/deadliest-day-in-four-years-may-trigger-outright-war-in-gaza-as-nations-hit-out-at-trump/news-story/352170746928ddc87d11722b5c38ef86

 

And some more details here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/15/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-protests.html

 

[dexterm]

6 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Like Fisk, you seem to be more focused on the pushed narrative's theme, rather than it being accurate. Accordingly, it is quite alright for Fisk to carry an inaccurate "land survey", as long as it serves the cause - but the "pedantic" label applied when the inaccuracies are addressed.

 

And, of course, there was no denial of the tragedy as you try to spin, nor was it even the point. The post took issue with the "creative" use of facts in order to manufacture an "improved" narrative. IMO, that's unnecessary, you obviously feel differently.

 

The Palestinians do not, indeed have a "right" to cross the fence into Israel. Their supposed Right of Return does not entail that they can do so however and whenever they wish. Such things are usually resolved by diplomacy and negotiations, not rushing of fences.

 

The "simply want to return home" slogan is intentionally misleading. The homes alluded to no longer exist. There are other people living there now, and they've been there for decades. Nothing in your propaganda rendering addresses the issue, or the consequences of a violent Palestinian crowd actually managing to cross the fence and reaching the sites of their former homes. How the protests were labeled is immaterial.

>>And, of course, there was no denial of the tragedy 

So you do not deny that the Palestinians of Huj and hundreds of other villages were expelled from their homes and removed to Gaza, and their villages flattened or built over? Thank you. That is the whole point of the March of Return...70 % of Gazans used to live in Israel or their parents or grandparents did.

>>The Palestinians do not, indeed have a "right" to cross the fence into Israel. Their supposed Right of Return does not entail that they can do so however and whenever they wish. Such things are usually resolved by diplomacy and negotiations, not rushing of fences.
..we're talking here of 70 years!! of talks, diplomacy, UN resolutions that Israel has stonewalled. The march born of frustration was a reminder to the world that the injustice has not yet been resolved. How long must Palestinians wait for justice  and the implementation of international law that states refugees have the right to return to their homes. Everyone including you (you call it national suicide) knows the reason why Israel wont allow that: Israel can only maintain a Jewish state by keeping the indigenous majority Palestinian population out of the land they or their parents were born in

 

>>The "simply want to return home" slogan is intentionally misleading. The homes alluded to no longer exist. There are other people living there now, and they've been there for decades.
...and who is responsible for that.. Israeli ethnic cleansers and erasers of Palestinian history. The systematic destruction of all traces of Palestinians ever having lived there commenced almost as soon as the mainly European Jewish colonizers established their state on someone else's land. All the towns and kibbutzes close to Gaza were within living memory Palestinian.

 

If you nitpick over Fisk's geography, try Israel's oldest newspaper Haartez then, which may give you a clue as to reason the protesters want to return home.

 

History Erased
During the 1950s, the nascent state and IDF set about destroying historical sites left behind by other cultures, particularly Muslims. This policy was so indiscriminate that even synagogues were destroyed.

 

In July 1950, Majdal - today Ashkelon - was still a mixed town. About 3,000 Palestinians lived there in a closed, fenced-off ghetto, next to the recently arrived Jewish residents. Before the 1948 war, Majdal had been a commercial and administrative center with a population of 12,000.
https://www.haaretz.com/1.4950011

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts and the replies have been removed. 

[Dumbastheycome]

23 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Waffle aimed at covering you either don't have a clue or can't clearly articulate your views.

Not aware that I'm a devotee of anything, let alone your made up nonsense.

 

No waffle. You  may be  be  very articulate  in deflection  of opinion contrary to  other than your own even if you  contrive to  make it appear balanced  and  objective. But the  consistency of  that  pedant deflection does  not alter the  very fact that the Gaza Strip  situation is  not a singular product of  any  faction . It  is a  reactionary outcome of the  illegitimate  encroachment and treatment  of   displaced  people who object despite  the protectionism supplied  by the  US for  such  treatment!

The  use  of empathy  for  the historical reason  Israel was  created  has had it's  time! 

The  abuse  of  it's long established  "legitimacy" gives it  no excuse.

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

I have no idea what reports you watch, or what you may consider "proof". As for news coverage being sanitized - yes, to a degree. Unless one follows local (Israel/Palestinian) reports, the coverage is certainly lacking, relative to the noise it generates. The apparent notion that Western news reporters have free, unlimited access on both sides of the border is unreal and incorrect.

 

What is odd, though (well, not really...) is reports based on Israeli media and/or IDF, footage are often automatically rejected by some posters (even when these appear in media outlets they usually praise). The same posters (and many others) see no issues accepting Palestinian (as in Hamas, or the Palestinian Ministry of Health, run by Hamas) reports and footage as gospel. Playing this game gets tedious, and there's no obligation to partake. There were links provided on several of the topics dealing with the protests, feel free to ignore them if you like.

 

In a recent statement, Nikolay Mladenov, the UN Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, said (among other thing, the full statement linked bellow, that "Hamas, which controlled Gaza, must not use the protests as cover to place bombs at the perimeter fence or hide among protestors to threaten civilian lives."

https://www.un.org/press/en/2018/sc13338.doc.htm

 

Six Hamas men play with explosives, it goes wrong. Who's to blame? Israel. Want to guess if they were added to the casualty list?

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/explosion-rocks-central-gaza-strip-fatalities-reported-1.6055148

 

Hamas officials say many of the protestors killed were Hamas people  (which was pretty much what Israeli officials claimed). This comes on top of Islamic Jihad identifying some of the casualties as their people, and earlier instances in which Hamas officially acknowledged deaths of operatives.

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/50-of-dead-in-gaza-protest-were-hamas-activists-says-hamas-official-1.6094899

 

With regard to the infant's death - after the initial report by the Ministry of Health in Gaza, a local doctor told AP there was a a local doctor she may have died due to an preexisting condition, and that she was sick prior to events. As for taking an infant to a violent protest - beats me, both with regard to the family, and local authorities. Might as well ask who's exploiting her death, using it as a propaganda "weapon".

 

This bit is hidden somewhere midway this story:

http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/deadliest-day-in-four-years-may-trigger-outright-war-in-gaza-as-nations-hit-out-at-trump/news-story/352170746928ddc87d11722b5c38ef86

 

And some more details here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/15/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-protests.html

 

>>Hamas officials say many of the protestors killed were Hamas people  (which was pretty much what Israeli officials claimed). This comes on top of Islamic Jihad identifying some of the casualties as their people, and earlier instances in which Hamas officially acknowledged deaths of operatives.

 

...so what? What are you trying to say: simply belonging to a political party or even belonging to the military wing of a political party warrants summary execution if an Israeli sniper cold bloodedly singles you out for a bullet from 100s of yards away? The whole Israeli population with its compulsory military service is one giant army of operatives defending the indefensible. According to your logic, every Israeli citizen who has ever served in the army is fair game for assassination. And with their track record of massive Palestinian civilian casualties the IDF well deserves the epithet of terrorists. Don't just wide brush stroke people fighting against illegal occupation as naturally deserving death. Hamas just as other historical resistance movements against foreign colonialism, has the right to resist occupation.

 

>>With regard to the infant's death - after the initial report by the Ministry of Health in Gaza, a local doctor told AP there was a a local doctor she may have died due to an preexisting condition.
..yes of course the baby had a precondition. The Zionist narrative must always be perfect and blameless.

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by dexterm

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>And, of course, there was no denial of the tragedy 

So you do not deny that the Palestinians of Huj and hundreds of other villages were expelled from their homes and removed to Gaza, and their villages flattened or built over? Thank you. That is the whole point of the March of Return...70 % of Gazans used to live in Israel or their parents or grandparents did.

>>The Palestinians do not, indeed have a "right" to cross the fence into Israel. Their supposed Right of Return does not entail that they can do so however and whenever they wish. Such things are usually resolved by diplomacy and negotiations, not rushing of fences.
..we're talking here of 70 years!! of talks, diplomacy, UN resolutions that Israel has stonewalled. The march born of frustration was a reminder to the world that the injustice has not yet been resolved. How long must Palestinians wait for justice  and the implementation of international law that states refugees have the right to return to their homes. Everyone including you (you call it national suicide) knows the reason why Israel wont allow that: Israel can only maintain a Jewish state by keeping the indigenous majority Palestinian population out of the land they or their parents were born in

 

>>The "simply want to return home" slogan is intentionally misleading. The homes alluded to no longer exist. There are other people living there now, and they've been there for decades.
...and who is responsible for that.. Israeli ethnic cleansers and erasers of Palestinian history. The systematic destruction of all traces of Palestinians ever having lived there commenced almost as soon as the mainly European Jewish colonizers established their state on someone else's land. All the towns and kibbutzes close to Gaza were within living memory Palestinian.

 

If you nitpick over Fisk's geography, try Israel's oldest newspaper Haartez then, which may give you a clue as to reason the protesters want to return home.

 

History Erased
During the 1950s, the nascent state and IDF set about destroying historical sites left behind by other cultures, particularly Muslims. This policy was so indiscriminate that even synagogues were destroyed.

 

In July 1950, Majdal - today Ashkelon - was still a mixed town. About 3,000 Palestinians lived there in a closed, fenced-off ghetto, next to the recently arrived Jewish residents. Before the 1948 war, Majdal had been a commercial and administrative center with a population of 12,000.
https://www.haaretz.com/1.4950011

 

The point made was with regard to Fisk's sometimes liberal use of facts, which is also evident in your own posts (plus them ever-present misleading wide-brush claims and statements). 

 

As you very well know, I do not deny the Nakba's reality. I do contest your wholesale "accounts" alleging all related instances involved Palestinian being forcefully expelled. Many were, many ran away. With regard to Huj - things are well documented, and it's an even bitter story than others.

 

The same treatment would be applied to your next comment regarding 70 years of supposed talks, diplomacy etc. That is blatantly misleading, and you are well aware of it.

 

There wasn't all that much interest or serious effort on the side of the Palestinians (and Arab countries sponsoring them) for decades in this regard. Let me refresh your memory - up until 1967, the Gaza Strip was occupied by Egypt, while the West Bank and East Jerusalem were occupied (and later annexed) by Jordan. No Palestinian statehood emerged, no talks either. The 1967 war was followed by the Khartoum Resolution's "Three No's" (no peace  with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with Israel). When it comes to the Palestinians this was pretty much where things stood until the 1990's. Sure, Israel wasn't ready and willing as well - but it not as if the Palestinians were either.

 

So the answer to them faux whines about "how long must the Palestinians wait..." - is, at least in part, something that's up to the Palestinians and a product of their past choices. The notion pushed, that there will be some deux ex-machina resolution of the conflict, is an illusion. The idea that any resolution will fully answer the Palestinians' expectations, is fantasy. The implication that by some force of winning argument, legal or otherwise, Israel and the World will completely undo the past is poison.

 

The Palestinians have legitimate grievances, and this still doesn't give them the right to do march unhindered into Israel, especially not given their "peaceful" attitude. And please, don't assume to tell me what I know, or make your views mine - that's not the case. Israel is not obligated to commit national suicide, it is not obligated to become Palestine, nor a country that's not Israel etc. The Palestinian grievances, legitimate as they are, do not imply that Israel and Israelis do not have rights as well. I would venture that not becoming Palestine is one of them.

 

The "simply want to return home" slogan is intentionally misleading. Harp on the emotional angle as much as you like, won't make it any different. The fact stands that most of the homes alluded to no longer exist, and that other people live there. For decades. What homes, then? And what's the plan when if and when they get there?

 

Also telling is your ignorance or ignoring (hard to tell sometimes) of Palestinian politics. Discussing the current state of things in the Gaza Strip, without this context highlighted is bizarre. It is funny how such things as political survival are considered prime motivator with regard to the actions of Israeli and American politicians, yet somehow fail to register when it comes to the Hamas leadership (or the PA's, for that matter).

 

Other than a failed attempt to defend Fisk's "creativeness", or start yet another off topic argument in what's an already off topic argument - the link provided doesn't really apply.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Dumbastheycome said:

No waffle. You  may be  be  very articulate  in deflection  of opinion contrary to  other than your own even if you  contrive to  make it appear balanced  and  objective. But the  consistency of  that  pedant deflection does  not alter the  very fact that the Gaza Strip  situation is  not a singular product of  any  faction . It  is a  reactionary outcome of the  illegitimate  encroachment and treatment  of   displaced  people who object despite  the protectionism supplied  by the  US for  such  treatment!

The  use  of empathy  for  the historical reason  Israel was  created  has had it's  time! 

The  abuse  of  it's long established  "legitimacy" gives it  no excuse.

 

Waffle it was and waffle it is (but even more bizarre, this time).

 

I never claimed the situation in the Gaza Strip is "a singular product of any faction". Quite the contrary. My posts often stress the complexity of the situations, and argue against simplistic takes. This includes acknowledging the roles played by Palestinian leaders.

 

On the other hand, the usual suspects prefer exactly the sort of simplistic interpretations - it's all Israel's fault (or at best, Israel and the US's fault).

 

I'm sure you thought you had a point there, somewhere.

[Dumbastheycome]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The point made was with regard to Fisk's sometimes liberal use of facts, which is also evident in your own posts (plus them ever-present misleading wide-brush claims and statements). 

 

As you very well know, I do not deny the Nakba's reality. I do contest your wholesale "accounts" alleging all related instances involved Palestinian being forcefully expelled. Many were, many ran away. With regard to Huj - things are well documented, and it's an even bitter story than others.

 

The same treatment would be applied to your next comment regarding 70 years of supposed talks, diplomacy etc. That is blatantly misleading, and you are well aware of it.

 

There wasn't all that much interest or serious effort on the side of the Palestinians (and Arab countries sponsoring them) for decades in this regard. Let me refresh your memory - up until 1967, the Gaza Strip was occupied by Egypt, while the West Bank and East Jerusalem were occupied (and later annexed) by Jordan. No Palestinian statehood emerged, no talks either. The 1967 war was followed by the Khartoum Resolution's "Three No's" (no peace  with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with Israel). When it comes to the Palestinians this was pretty much where things stood until the 1990's. Sure, Israel wasn't ready and willing as well - but it not as if the Palestinians were either.

 

So the answer to them faux whines about "how long must the Palestinians wait..." - is, at least in part, something that's up to the Palestinians and a product of their past choices. The notion pushed, that there will be some deux ex-machina resolution of the conflict, is an illusion. The idea that any resolution will fully answer the Palestinians' expectations, is fantasy. The implication that by some force of winning argument, legal or otherwise, Israel and the World will completely undo the past is poison.

 

The Palestinians have legitimate grievances, and this still doesn't give them the right to do march unhindered into Israel, especially not given their "peaceful" attitude. And please, don't assume to tell me what I know, or make your views mine - that's not the case. Israel is not obligated to commit national suicide, it is not obligated to become Palestine, nor a country that's not Israel etc. The Palestinian grievances, legitimate as they are, do not imply that Israel and Israelis do not have rights as well. I would venture that not becoming Palestine is one of them.

 

The "simply want to return home" slogan is intentionally misleading. Harp on the emotional angle as much as you like, won't make it any different. The fact stands that most of the homes alluded to no longer exist, and that other people live there. For decades. What homes, then? And what's the plan when if and when they get there?

 

Also telling is your ignorance or ignoring (hard to tell sometimes) of Palestinian politics. Discussing the current state of things in the Gaza Strip, without this context highlighted is bizarre. It is funny how such things as political survival are considered prime motivator with regard to the actions of Israeli and American politicians, yet somehow fail to register when it comes to the Hamas leadership (or the PA's, for that matter).

 

Other than a failed attempt to defend Fisk's "creativeness", or start yet another off topic argument in what's an already off topic argument - the link provided doesn't really apply.

"The "simply want to return home" slogan is intentionally misleading. Harp on the emotional angle as much as you like, won't make it any different. The fact stands that most of the homes alluded to no longer exist, and that other people live there. For decades. What homes, then? And what's the plan when if and when they get there?"

 

So  you  support  ethnic  cleansing?  

Interesting  revelation.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/if-palestinians-lose-their-commitment-non-violence-israel-has-only-itself-blame-214205069

 

[dexterm]

49 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The point made was with regard to Fisk's sometimes liberal use of facts, which is also evident in your own posts (plus them ever-present misleading wide-brush claims and statements). 

 

As you very well know, I do not deny the Nakba's reality. I do contest your wholesale "accounts" alleging all related instances involved Palestinian being forcefully expelled. Many were, many ran away. With regard to Huj - things are well documented, and it's an even bitter story than others.

 

The same treatment would be applied to your next comment regarding 70 years of supposed talks, diplomacy etc. That is blatantly misleading, and you are well aware of it.

 

There wasn't all that much interest or serious effort on the side of the Palestinians (and Arab countries sponsoring them) for decades in this regard. Let me refresh your memory - up until 1967, the Gaza Strip was occupied by Egypt, while the West Bank and East Jerusalem were occupied (and later annexed) by Jordan. No Palestinian statehood emerged, no talks either. The 1967 war was followed by the Khartoum Resolution's "Three No's" (no peace  with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with Israel). When it comes to the Palestinians this was pretty much where things stood until the 1990's. Sure, Israel wasn't ready and willing as well - but it not as if the Palestinians were either.

 

So the answer to them faux whines about "how long must the Palestinians wait..." - is, at least in part, something that's up to the Palestinians and a product of their past choices. The notion pushed, that there will be some deux ex-machina resolution of the conflict, is an illusion. The idea that any resolution will fully answer the Palestinians' expectations, is fantasy. The implication that by some force of winning argument, legal or otherwise, Israel and the World will completely undo the past is poison.

 

The Palestinians have legitimate grievances, and this still doesn't give them the right to do march unhindered into Israel, especially not given their "peaceful" attitude. And please, don't assume to tell me what I know, or make your views mine - that's not the case. Israel is not obligated to commit national suicide, it is not obligated to become Palestine, nor a country that's not Israel etc. The Palestinian grievances, legitimate as they are, do not imply that Israel and Israelis do not have rights as well. I would venture that not becoming Palestine is one of them.

 

The "simply want to return home" slogan is intentionally misleading. Harp on the emotional angle as much as you like, won't make it any different. The fact stands that most of the homes alluded to no longer exist, and that other people live there. For decades. What homes, then? And what's the plan when if and when they get there?

 

Also telling is your ignorance or ignoring (hard to tell sometimes) of Palestinian politics. Discussing the current state of things in the Gaza Strip, without this context highlighted is bizarre. It is funny how such things as political survival are considered prime motivator with regard to the actions of Israeli and American politicians, yet somehow fail to register when it comes to the Hamas leadership (or the PA's, for that matter).

 

Other than a failed attempt to defend Fisk's "creativeness", or start yet another off topic argument in what's an already off topic argument - the link provided doesn't really apply.

>>As you very well know, I do not deny the Nakba's reality.
..Thank you. You admit that Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from what is now Israel.  Whether you maintain the perfect Zionist narrative that they all left voluntarily in the past , now discounted by modern historians, or not, it is a war crime not to allow them to return to their homes today.

 

The protesting Palestinians want the implementation of UN Resolutions 194 and UN 242 and the Geneva Convention. The fact that Israel refuses to adhere to and that the EU and US governments have hypocritically done nothing to enforce these resolutions and laws has created the frustration that has forced the Palestinians in the OP to highlight this dereliction of international duty.

"The Resolution defined principles for reaching a final settlement and returning Palestine refugees to their homes. It resolved that “refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.” 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_194

 

My understanding of your often repeated statement "Israel is not obligated to commit national suicide" as meaning Israel will not allow the return of the majority indigenous Muslim and Christian refugees simply because they would then outnumber Israeli Jews. Pray do tell if your meaning is different from mine.

 

Nothing faux about my emotions at all, but I do wonder how you can sleep at night constantly disingenuously defending the indefensible of the killings of dozens of civilians including children and paraplegics.

Edited May 18, 2018 by dexterm

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

>>Hamas officials say many of the protestors killed were Hamas people  (which was pretty much what Israeli officials claimed). This comes on top of Islamic Jihad identifying some of the casualties as their people, and earlier instances in which Hamas officially acknowledged deaths of operatives.

 

...so what? What are you trying to say: simply belonging to a political party or even belonging to the military wing of a political party warrants summary execution if an Israeli sniper cold bloodedly singles you out for a bullet from 100s of yards away? The whole Israeli population with its compulsory military service is one giant army of operatives defending the indefensible. According to your logic, every Israeli citizen who has ever served in the army is fair game for assassination. And with their track record of massive Palestinian civilian casualties the IDF well deserves the epithet of terrorists. Don't just wide brush stroke people fighting against illegal occupation as naturally deserving death. Hamas just as other historical resistance movements against foreign colonialism, has the right to resist occupation.

 

>>With regard to the infant's death - after the initial report by the Ministry of Health in Gaza, a local doctor told AP there was a a local doctor she may have died due to an preexisting condition.
..yes of course the baby had a precondition. The Zionist narrative must always be perfect and blameless.

 

 

All throughout this topic (and previous ones) there's a constant effort by some to paint these protests as either having little or nothing to do with the Hamas. Now it turns out it doesn't matter....well well.

 

Despite similar ongoing denial, there were many incidents involving shooting, IED's, and attempts to sabotage or breach the fence. If would take some extra "creativeness" to explain these away, or claim they weren't Hamas (or Islamic Jihad) operatives. All the more so, when these organizations don't quite deny it.

 

Your supposed rendering of how these Hamas operatives found their deaths, exhibits again the liberal use of facts. In your imaginary version, they were doing no wrong - despite you having nothing to support this. I doubt you, even, believe it.

 

And here we go with them wide-brush nonsense statements presented as facts. In effect, there is no compulsory military service for all Israeli citizens. That you favor meaningless hyperbole such as "one giant army....defending the indefensible" doesn't change facts. And "my logic" does not imply what you claim - don't think I said anything about anyone who ever been a member of Hamas being a legitimate target. In general, soldiers in active duty, are considered legitimate targets. Your pronunciations on what the IDF deserves to be called are irrelevant, and by now, boringly repetitive. The same goes for your treatment of Hamas. It is a terrorist organization, whether you like to accept it or not.

 

I did not "wide brush stroke people fighting against illegal occupation" - I'm making a differentiation between Hamas (or Islamic Jihad operatives) and other protestors. I'm making a differentiation between those taking violent actions against the IDF and those who don't. I'm making a differentiation between the people and their leadership. You, on the other hand, insist all protestors are of the same mold.

 

With regard of to the infant's death - you do realize that the information came from Palestinians sources: a doctor, and her own family. It was published by at least two major news outlets.

[Morch]

56 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

"The "simply want to return home" slogan is intentionally misleading. Harp on the emotional angle as much as you like, won't make it any different. The fact stands that most of the homes alluded to no longer exist, and that other people live there. For decades. What homes, then? And what's the plan when if and when they get there?"

 

So  you  support  ethnic  cleansing?  

Interesting  revelation.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/if-palestinians-lose-their-commitment-non-violence-israel-has-only-itself-blame-214205069

 

 

I support posters cease trolling. Where did you see anything indicating such "support", in my posts? I stated how things are, while the poster replied to does his best to avoid addressing this reality.

 

As for the "revelation" - the author's version of what passes for "peaceful" or "non-violent" can be debated. Especially if one isn't blind. The account offered of how things panned out conveniently ignores all them Hamas leaders making fiery speeches about crossing the fence, tearing it down, returning to homes, taking back all the land, and whatnot. This preceded the the protests, and was not a product of any direct violence.

[dexterm]

35 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

All throughout this topic (and previous ones) there's a constant effort by some to paint these protests as either having little or nothing to do with the Hamas. Now it turns out it doesn't matter....well well.

 

Despite similar ongoing denial, there were many incidents involving shooting, IED's, and attempts to sabotage or breach the fence. If would take some extra "creativeness" to explain these away, or claim they weren't Hamas (or Islamic Jihad) operatives. All the more so, when these organizations don't quite deny it.

 

Your supposed rendering of how these Hamas operatives found their deaths, exhibits again the liberal use of facts. In your imaginary version, they were doing no wrong - despite you having nothing to support this. I doubt you, even, believe it.

 

And here we go with them wide-brush nonsense statements presented as facts. In effect, there is no compulsory military service for all Israeli citizens. That you favor meaningless hyperbole such as "one giant army....defending the indefensible" doesn't change facts. And "my logic" does not imply what you claim - don't think I said anything about anyone who ever been a member of Hamas being a legitimate target. In general, soldiers in active duty, are considered legitimate targets. Your pronunciations on what the IDF deserves to be called are irrelevant, and by now, boringly repetitive. The same goes for your treatment of Hamas. It is a terrorist organization, whether you like to accept it or not.

 

I did not "wide brush stroke people fighting against illegal occupation" - I'm making a differentiation between Hamas (or Islamic Jihad operatives) and other protestors. I'm making a differentiation between those taking violent actions against the IDF and those who don't. I'm making a differentiation between the people and their leadership. You, on the other hand, insist all protestors are of the same mold.

 

With regard of to the infant's death - you do realize that the information came from Palestinians sources: a doctor, and her own family. It was published by at least two major news outlets.

So what evidence do you have that children, press and paraplegics were shooting, planting IEDs? Any compassion for those?

 

You seem to be distorting the facts to fit your perfect Zionist narrative...that's Netanyahu's line too of course..that they were all members of Hamas and therefore sentenced to death. I am saying that being a member of a political party and even it's military wing does not warrant summary execution. Do you equally believe that Israelis travelling on a gap year from military service are fair game too?

 

>>The same goes for your treatment of Hamas. It is a terrorist organization, whether you like to accept it or not.
... You're quite right I do not accept it. Your label not mine. You're entitled to think whatever you like of course, however irrelevant.

 

Zionist apologists such as yourself wish to distort the thread putting the entire blame for over 100 deaths and 8,000 injured on Hamas and nary an ounce of responsibility on the ones who actually pulled the triggers. It's a deflection from the purpose of the protest itself as this demonstrator explains.

 

Why I marched on May 14 in Gaza near the Israeli fence
No, it was not because 'Hamas made me'.

"I have been going to the Great March of Return in Gaza two to three times a week, ever since it started on March 30. It makes me feel closer to my village of Zarnouqa, which once stood near what used to be the Palestinian city of al-Ramla. Israeli militias ethnically cleansed the area in 1948, expelling tens of thousands of Palestinians, including my parents."

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/march-return-14may-gaza-israeli-fence-180516124449284.html

[Morch]

34 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>As you very well know, I do not deny the Nakba's reality.
..Thank you. You admit that Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from what is now Israel.  Whether you maintain the perfect Zionist narrative that they all left voluntarily in the past , now discounted by modern historians, or not, it is a war crime not to allow them to return to their homes today.

 

The protesting Palestinians want the implementation of UN Resolutions 194 and UN 242 and the Geneva Convention. The fact that Israel refuses to adhere to and that the EU and US governments have hypocritically done nothing to enforce these resolutions and laws has created the frustration that has forced the Palestinians in the OP to highlight this dereliction of international duty.

"The Resolution defined principles for reaching a final settlement and returning Palestine refugees to their homes. It resolved that “refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.” 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_194

 

My understanding of your often repeated statement "Israel is not obligated to commit national suicide" as meaning Israel will not allow the return of the majority indigenous Muslim and Christian refugees simply because they would then outnumber Israeli Jews. Pray do tell if your meaning is different from mine.

 

Nothing faux about my emotions at all, but I do wonder how you can sleep at night constantly disingenuously defending the indefensible of the killings of dozens of civilians including children and paraplegics.

 

Don't pretend to "thank" me. There's nothing in my position that is new, and this isn't the first time we've been over this. Kindly stop putting words in my mouth, or implying I accept either your interpretations or your style of presentation. I never said anything about all the Palestinian leaving voluntarily, the reference was always that some did (whether by their own volition or due to their leadership advocating it). That you make another one of them wholesale misleading statements about this being "now discounted by modern historians", is not a fact. There is no widely accepted approach fully supportive of your narrow one-sided version. Most acknowledge it as a combination of causes and factors.

 

I doubt you're an authority on what the Palestinians want. In fact, when facing tough questions, you resort to the default answer that you do not represent the Palestinians and do not know what their positions are. But be that as it may....

 

Resolutions cited are from 1948, and 1967. Neither says anything about the Palestinians having the right to unilaterally determine the mechanism of their return. Further, the earlier resolution clearly states that the right to return applies to "refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors". Maybe a tiny problem there.

 

You conveniently fail to mention that the Palestinians did not accept these resolutions for a long while, nor was their interpretation of them universally accepted. Most realistic approaches acknowledge that negotiations must precede implementation. Hamas is neither into living peacefully with Israel, nor support such negotiations. This was repeated by Hamas leaders during the protests. Trying to spin everything as being unrelated to Palestinian choices is dishonest.

 

Between what you understand and how you spin it, there's quite a chasm. The "simply because" gives up the game, though. Almost everything about this conflict isn't "simple", regardless of your simplistic presentation. Neither people is truly interested in your faux multicultural version. The fact that you highlight Israel's rejection of such, while avoiding discussion of how Palestinians envisage such a scenario doesn't change that. Countries are not obligated to embrace your politics or your suggested social engineering experiments. Since we're dealing with the ME, rather than "the West" perhaps you'll be so kind as to either give an existing credible regional example for such a construct or a reasoned explanation as to why this is a workable notion and a good idea.

 

Your pathetic bit of moralizing is dully noted.

 

[Scott]

Stay on topic and post in a civil manner.   Continued emotive use of personal terms will earn suspensions.