Scotland's Sturgeon warns of catastrophic 'no deal' Brexit

[Grouse]

20 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

"My party does not propose or support using the euro, so the options the commission has been looking at: sterling in a currency union, sterling outwith a currency union, or a process that would lead to a distinctive Scottish currency over time," she said.

 

Sterling - not your decision sweetie. That would be one for the British government. 

 

Euro - not your decision sweetie. That would be the EU - and you'd me very very lucky to meet their criteria. Although I do believe there is a requirement that any new applicants agree to adopt the Euro at the earliest opportunity.

 

Still suffering her delusions of grandeur, stating the "bleedin'obvious" and then claiming she'll make all sorts of decision way above her level of glorified council leader.

 

But she needs to appear relevant. Because she actually isn't very.

That's very courteous 

[RickBradford]

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Well, the union having never been put to plebiscite, and the resulting riots in Scotland when it was put in place show that regardless of the structure, it was not something that the Scottish people willingly walked into.

Excuse me, but wasn't the union put to plebiscite in 2014? And union supported by a 55% majority?

 

As for whether the Scottish people walked willingly into the union in 1707, the country itself didn't have much option, as I recall, having bankrupted itself trying to sell kippers to the Arawak Indians.

 

And the fact that it didn't have a plebiscite for 200 years after the Act of Union suggests that there was little desire for one.

 

[Grouse]

20 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

The country is the United Kingdom. Your nationality is British.

 

Despite what FIFA and the IRB allow for sports purposes. 

 

 

 

 

But it should be much more decentralised. Interestingly, this the big issue for Italy's Northern League; Rome has too much power over the North.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, RickBradford said:

Excuse me, but wasn't the union put to plebiscite in 2014? And union supported by a 55% majority?

 

And one of the trinkets dangled in front of us to stay was that this was the only means of remaining in the EU. Like all the other offers, this too proved to be a lie.

 

6 minutes ago, RickBradford said:

As for whether the Scottish people walked willingly into the union in 1707, the country itself didn't have much option, as I recall, having bankrupted itself trying to sell kippers to the Arawak Indians.

Unfortunately your recollection of the circumstances of the signing of the Act of Union is wholly incorrect but there are plenty of sources of information available online should you wish to educate yourself on the history (here's a teaser for you to think about - how can a country with a feudal economy and no central bank go bankrupt?).

 

7 minutes ago, RickBradford said:

And the fact that it didn't have a plebiscite for 200 years after the Act of Union suggests that there was little desire for one.

I am not sure of the relevance of that point, but the fact that, consistently, 45% of the population want out of the UK suggests that we are just one little push from that becoming a reality.

[Grouse]

Much unpleasantness on this thread. Why?

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Much unpleasantness on this thread. Why?

That'd pretty much my impression of British politics in general :) Two sides fight each other. When there are more sides, co-operations between different parties is required and therefore the politics / discussions are less destructive. 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, oilinki said:

That'd pretty much my impression of British politics in general :) Two sides fight each other. When there are more sides, co-operations between different parties is required and therefore the politics / discussions are less destructive. 

 

There seem to be a sizeable number of people across the UK who believe that the union, as an entity, is inviolate, and that any attempt to break away from Westminster is an attack on the notion of Britishness.

 

If we can agree that there are 4 primary cultures within the UK, by sheer number, the English dominate all aspects of British life. As a member of one of the minority cultures, I am possibly more aware of that dominance than your average Englishman is - for example, it is common to hear people talk of the English pound, the Queen of England, the English parliament etc. Now these are petty issues and I do not raise them as a justification for independence, but rather to highlight that many within the UK see England and the UK as being synonymous. Only last week a TV contributor suggested to me that a risible photograph of an idiot Scotsman burning a Union flag was a clear sign of anti-English sentiment. Clearly it was no such thing, the Union Flag not being the flag of England, but this appears to be the mentality of many - England IS the UK.

 

This is why I think the idea of self determination for Scots gets so many people heated - they see it as an attack on the UK and, by extension, an attack on England, which they take personally. Well, that is my attempt at amateur pop psychology. I am more than willing to hear a different take on it from those who are strongly opposed to the idea.

[Sir Dude]

Not much positive to say about this awful woman. But, I find it odd that the SNP want to leave the UK and supposedly becoming "independent" whilst paradoxically at the same time want to be in the EU and ever less independent as Brussels tightens it's grip on everything and basically issues diktats on all aspects of life and business (even talk of an EU finance minister recently to oversee country's budgets/spending)...weird.  

Edited May 16, 2018 by Sir Dude

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Sir Dude said:

Not much positive to say about this awful woman. But, I find it odd that the SNP want to leave the UK and supposedly becoming "independent" whilst paradoxically at the same time want to be in the EU and ever less independent as Brussels tightens it's grip on everything and basically issues diktats on all aspects of life and business (even talk of an EU finance minister recently to oversee country's budgets/spending)...weird.  

Not sure why you think she is awful - care to explain in more detail?

 

Let's take the EU out of the picture - if the majority of Scots wanted simply to withdraw from the UK, could you accept that?

[Sir Dude]

40 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Not sure why you think she is awful - care to explain in more detail?

 

Let's take the EU out of the picture - if the majority of Scots wanted simply to withdraw from the UK, could you accept that?

Firstly, she is a general hate figure and for good reason...rather like Suthep or Thaksin is here.

 

Secondly, sure, if the Scots want to bail then 'See ya'...as they will learn the valuable lesson again which prompted them to join the union in the first place  all those centuries ago, which is you can't afford it and you would have to grovel to someone else who would attach more strings to it than Westminster does. Maybe they could sell themselves to China...seems to be par-for-the-course these days for many countries. The North Sea oil thing doesn't cut it...and the rest of the union would cut the Scots off. The SNP can't even balance their books now with the help of Westminster and their own tax raising powers...good luck with that if you leave. But if they want to be nationalistic then go ahead, fine with me...never works though these days.

 

However, each to their own opinion.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Sir Dude

[RuamRudy]

There is so much bile and bitterness in your post that I feel somewhat saddened.

 

1 minute ago, Sir Dude said:

Firstly, she is a general hate figure and for good reason...rather like Suthep or Thaksin is here.

Such good reasons that you are unable to specify a single example?

 

2 minutes ago, Sir Dude said:

Secondly, sure, if the Scots want to bail then 'See ya'...as they will learn the valuable lesson again which prompted them to join the union in the first place  all those centuries ago, which is you can't afford it

History is not your strongest suit, I see. You should read up on the Darien scheme and then you will realise that this was nothing to do with Scotland, but a problem for a group private individuals who over estimated their abilities and under estimated the difficulties of establishing a colony in South America.

 

4 minutes ago, Sir Dude said:

you would have to grovel to someone else who would attach more strings to it than Westminster does

Grovel? We are obliged to send 70% of revenue generated in Scotland to Westminster, of which we receive a portion back. Is that groveling? Personally, I call it getting ripped off. The Scottish government has repeatedly requested that all revenues in Scotland be retained but Westminster rejects that proposal - for very good reasons, of course, prinicipal amongst them being that Scotland contributes more to the exchequer per head of population than any other part of the UK with the exception of the City of London and the SE of England. Unless you come from those areas, the Scots are subsidising you. Despite your lack of gratitude, you are welcome to our support for now.

 

8 minutes ago, Sir Dude said:

The North Sea oil thing doesn't cut

Is that meant to mean anything constructive? Do you even understand what you are trying to say here?

 

8 minutes ago, Sir Dude said:

The SNP can't even balance their books now with the help of Westminster and their own tax raising powers

Again, your lack of understanding is glaring. How in the name of god do you think they manage? If they cannot 'balance their books', as you put it, who is lending them money?

 

10 minutes ago, Sir Dude said:

But if they want to be nationalistic then go ahead, fine with me...never works though these days.

Well, certainly Brexit is proving that if you want to be 'nationalistic', at least start with a plan...

[Sir Dude]

Haha....you missed the last line in the post. Seems your bitterness also runs deep. We are done here.

[tryasimight]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

There seem to be a sizeable number of people across the UK who believe that the union, as an entity, is inviolate, and that any attempt to break away from Westminster is an attack on the notion of Britishness.

 

If we can agree that there are 4 primary cultures within the UK, by sheer number, the English dominate all aspects of British life. As a member of one of the minority cultures, I am possibly more aware of that dominance than your average Englishman is - for example, it is common to hear people talk of the English pound, the Queen of England, the English parliament etc. Now these are petty issues and I do not raise them as a justification for independence, but rather to highlight that many within the UK see England and the UK as being synonymous. Only last week a TV contributor suggested to me that a risible photograph of an idiot Scotsman burning a Union flag was a clear sign of anti-English sentiment. Clearly it was no such thing, the Union Flag not being the flag of England, but this appears to be the mentality of many - England IS the UK.

 

This is why I think the idea of self determination for Scots gets so many people heated - they see it as an attack on the UK and, by extension, an attack on England, which they take personally. Well, that is my attempt at amateur pop psychology. I am more than willing to hear a different take on it from those who are strongly opposed to the idea.

Interesting comment. As an Aussie outside looking in I agree with what you are saying. The UK is perceived to be England for all intents and purpose internationally BUT I also discern the individual peoples i.e the Scots, Welsh and Irish, having grown up with many of them in Oz. I'll probably get hung, drawn and quartered for saying Irish collectively.

 

Can I ask a question....why hasn't Brexit happened already? To use the Isaan analogy...the UK survived before the farang EU or EEC came along....it will survive after it is gone. Sick buffalo or sick Hereford  regardless.

Edited May 16, 2018 by tryasimight

[stevenl]

18 minutes ago, Sir Dude said:

Firstly, she is a general hate figure and for good reason...rather like Suthep or Thaksin is here.

 

Secondly, sure, if the Scots want to bail then 'See ya'...as they will learn the valuable lesson again which prompted them to join the union in the first place  all those centuries ago, which is you can't afford it and you would have to grovel to someone else who would attach more strings to it than Westminster does. Maybe they could sell themselves to China...seems to be par-for-the-course these days for many countries. The North Sea oil thing doesn't cut it...and the rest of the union would cut the Scots off. The SNP can't even balance their books now with the help of Westminster and their own tax raising powers...good luck with that if you leave. But if they want to be nationalistic then go ahead, fine with me...never works though these days.

 

However, each to their own opinion.

She has been elected quite a few times now, so she really is not 'a general hate figure and for good reason'.

[tonbridgebrit]

Go on Nicola, say it as it is. I live in Kent, the Garden of England, I'm proud of my Kentish roots, nobody can take that away from me. I'm very far away from Scotland, and you're in Scotland, go and tell them that this hard Brexit is suicidal and catastrophic for our nation.

A bunch of bigots have decided to drive us all over a cliff. And I really do hate it when the media tries to make it look like that us in the Home Counties are mainly a bunch of Brexiteers.

[evadgib]

14 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Go on Nicola, say it as it is. I live in Kent, the Garden of England, I'm proud of my Kentish roots, nobody can take that away from me. I'm very far away from Scotland, and you're in Scotland, go and tell them that this hard Brexit is suicidal and catastrophic for our nation.

A bunch of bigots have decided to drive us all over a cliff. And I really do hate it when the media tries to make it look like that us in the Home Counties are mainly a bunch of Brexiteers.

Wot?

The Electorate voted to leave and to take Scotland with them, and no amount of whining is going to stop that from happening.

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, tryasimight said:

Can I ask a question....why hasn't Brexit happened already? To use the Isaan analogy...the UK survived before the farang EU or EEC came along....it will survive after it is gone. Sick buffalo or sick Hereford  regardless.

Because the strangular fig won't let go easily and has had a 40 year head start.

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Wot?

The Electorate voted to leave and to take Scotland with them, and no amount of whining is going to stop that from happening.

What a strange way to put it - almost as if you consider Scotland to be the property of England...

The electorate in Scotland also handed the SNP a mandate to seek a second referendum in the event of a material change in the UK's relationship with the EU.

We accept that we will be pulled from Europe against our clear wishes, but that is not the end of the journey by far.

[evadgib]

Scotland will flounder if they're daft enough to try but hopefully they won't be that stupid.

 

Having said that we need a Govt that knows what it's doing & I haven't seen that in a while.

Edited May 16, 2018 by evadgib

[tryasimight]

6 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Because the strangular fig won't let go easily and has had a 40 year head start.

I have no idea what that means

[evadgib]

Just now, tryasimight said:

I have no idea what that means

The EU!

[tryasimight]

1 minute ago, evadgib said:

The EU!

The strangular fig is the EU?

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Scotland will flounder if they're daft enough to try but hopefully they won't be that stupid.

 

Having said that we need a Govt that knows what it's doing & I haven't seen that in a while.

Why would it flounder? What is unique to the Scots that makes them incapable of managing their own affairs?

[evadgib]

If this thread is anything to go by it's their pre-occupation with all things English and their ability to play professional victim when they don't get their own way.

Edited May 16, 2018 by evadgib

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, evadgib said:

If this thread is anything to go by it's their pre-occupation with all things English and their ability to play professional victim.

But that's more of a cheap dig than a reasoned answer.  If that's the best you have then I guess we have nothing to worry about.

[evadgib]

45 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

But that's more of a cheap dig than a reasoned answer.  If that's the best you have then I guess we have nothing to worry about.

I'd prefer the UK to remain intact yet am glad we're leaving the EU. If SNP are serious about leaving the union a sure way to achieve it would be to ensure the rest of the union gets to join in next time.

Edited May 16, 2018 by evadgib

[tonbridgebrit]

21 hours ago, evadgib said:

Wot?

The Electorate voted to leave and to take Scotland with them, and no amount of whining is going to stop that from happening.

Do you accept that Britain leaving the EU and being outside of this massive free-trade zone is basically suicidal and catastrophic ? It is, believe me. I think, the EU is trying to say "Britain, you're going to have to agree on freedom of movement of workers and stay in the customs union or whatever, and then, you can stay in the free-trade zone".

But the hard-Brexiteers are trying to say, "we are not accepting the EU's offer, we are willing to pull out of the free trade zone if we are going to have to accept freedom of movement of workers, etc".
 

Nicola Sturgeon and others are trying to stop a hard-Brexit. If you know what's good for Britain, you would be joining in with us to support Nicola Sturgeon. The pound has dropped to US$ 1.35 , it was at US$ 1.42 quite recently. That drop, I think, in my opinion, is at least partly because the markets are reckoning that a hard-Brexit is more likely than previously thought.

I think the pound did go down to US$1.21 at one point. I think an actual hard-Brexit (leaving the EU without a trade deal, being outside of the free-trade zone) will push the pound down to well below US$1.21.  I reckon a catastrophic US$ 1.10 might happen.

[evadgib]

6 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Do you accept that Britain leaving the EU and being outside of this massive free-trade zone is basically suicidal and catastrophic ? It is, believe me. I think, the EU is trying to say "Britain, you're going to have to agree on freedom of movement of workers and stay in the customs union or whatever, and then, you can stay in the free-trade zone".

But the hard-Brexiteers are trying to say, "we are not accepting the EU's offer, we are willing to pull out of the free trade zone if we are going to have to accept freedom of movement of workers, etc".
 

Nicola Sturgeon and others are trying to stop a hard-Brexit. If you know what's good for Britain, you would be joining in with us to support Nicola Sturgeon. The pound has dropped to US$ 1.35 , it was at US$ 1.42 quite recently. That drop, I think, in my opinion, is at least partly because the markets are reckoning that a hard-Brexit is more likely than previously thought.

I think the pound did go down to US$1.21 at one point. I think an actual hard-Brexit (leaving the EU without a trade deal, being outside of the free-trade zone) will push the pound down to well below US$1.21.  I reckon a catastrophic US$ 1.10 might happen.

I don't pretend to know the answers but have learned to trust my own intuition and cannot ever remember regretting it, other than immediately after uttering "I do" some years ago 

[sanuk711]

[Cherjam]

12 hours ago, sanuk711 said:

location london, please indulge me with your knowledge of Devolution and Scottish politics.