Land Holding Companys Are Illegal

[CoconutRobber]

Bangkok Post January 29th, 2007

Foreigners warned on land

Krirk-krai: Resorts not in Thai hands

UMESH PANDEY

Foreign investors holding property through shell companies using Thai nominees have been warned to restructure their holdings or face prosecution.

"Foreigners using shell companies to buy housing across the country are violating two laws. One, the Land Act that forbids foreigners from holding land and two, the Foreign Business Act by using nominee structures. I recommend that they restructure," Commerce Minister Krirk-krai Jirapaet told foreign journalists at a dinner talk on Friday.

Under Thai law, he pointed out, foreigners can only own land if they have businesses promoted by the Board of Investment, under the Industrial Estate Act or with written permission from the Interior Ministry.

Please see the Bangkok Post for the rest of the article

Source: Bangkok Post

NOW,

What do you know it alls who have been telling everyone not to worry about the Law, but just go ahead and buy have to say ?

Edited January 29, 2007 by sbk
do not quote entire BKK Post article, include link to source

[Vespa]

Market experts believe the villa-for-sale market in resort destinations will suffer as a result.

NOW,

What do you know it alls who have been telling everyone not to worry about the Law, but just go ahead and buy have to say ?

I see the shit hitting the fan real soon, anyone want to buy a nice bridge in Brooklyn ?

[pgrin]

I think Khun Commerce Minister Krirk-krai Jirapaet has been reading my posts.

post 2007-01-09 03:26:23

Post #43

Senior Member

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Group: Members

Posts: 112

Joined: 2004-06-16

Member No.: 10,698

To those of you who hold property by way of a Thai Majority Shareholder set up and only see the possibilty that this new law will erode your voting position you have overlooked a significant detail. These new rules only apply to legally formed corporations. When you set up you land holding company using nominee shareholders you committed not one but two crimes. In a country with a functioning legal system you would not only lose your land but also be on the hook for fines and jail time. There would be no law suits filed if the Thai Gov said "We are repatriating the land you illegally hold. If you wish to contend this action please be aware that we will enforce the fines and jail time that is clearly written in the law. Kindly leave the keys at immigration on your way out of the country."

P

[Phil Conners]

Cheap housing, here we come!!

[Mobi]

Those of you who have seen my earlier posts will know that I anticipated someting like this would happen, long before the coup and latest go around on the FBA rule changes hit the headlines.

I believe that there is still time for re-structuring, if land owners act now, but I'm not at all sure that "wait and see" is any longer a prudent attitude to adopt.

Good luck to everyone who has been caught up in this miserable business.

[billd766]

My house and land has been held for the last 4 years by a 100% Thai person, my wife and not a company.

I feel it is easier that way and better for her and our son whatever happens.

[PeaceBlondie]

Didn't something like this happen several years ago in Mexico, where all the seaside villas turned out to be illegally owned by foreigners, and they lost their properties?

[quiksilva]

I for one say where have you been? We have been discussing this topic for quite sometime now, here's one such thread

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...0203&st=210

[Geppis72]

If this will going to happen, the results will be dramatics even for tourism purpose.

Rather than make all this noise the Govt. should just stop those loophole on land property

from a fix day.

People who already have the land and property should be put in condition

to switch in a legal way to keep what they got. very simple.

Nobody upset, clear statement, everybody save face and money,

you restore a bit of confidence and leasehold will be the only avail. solution

for houses. stop.

I do not want to see big building of 10 floor on Samui Beaches only because the condo are the

only solution to buy in freehold. The environment will suffer much more then now.

I know think the consequence is not in the Thai style.

[Dupont]

Market experts believe the villa-for-sale market in resort destinations will suffer as a result.

NOW,

What do you know it alls who have been telling everyone not to worry about the Law, but just go ahead and buy have to say ?

I see the shit hitting the fan real soon, anyone want to buy a nice bridge in Brooklyn ?

What you two smart <deleted> miss, is that nobody has lost a single baht yet, apart from the people who didn't buy.

They are quite rightly going for the developers and speculators, which is apparant if you read the article rather than look for some glimmer of hope for you to pop up and say told you so.

There are two things this pompous little rascist could achieve

1,- kill off another tranch of inward investment and get himself sidelined (sacked)

2,- having satisfied people of his nationalist tendancies, back off when confronted with the harsh reality of publicly taking thousands of companies to court (who would give up without a fight?) and evicting or stealing from foreign investors many of whome are retired and elderly! Anyone imagine the army evicting 70 year old farang couples from homes live on CNN, BBC, Fox News ETC? Anyone else has the wife etc. to own the land.

How about a "how much rent do you pay" and how long have you been here post? show you how much money most people have wasted here over the years. If I lost mine tomorrow, I have saved more in rent payments than the house cost! But then, I have only lived here 15 years, so what do I know against some of you newcomers and tourists.

ADVERT.

Newcomer to Thailand selling Encyclopeia,

Never used

Reason for sale, owner knows everything

Please contact Coconutrubber

Edited January 29, 2007 by Dupont

[esprit]

They have done so in the South of Spain as property was illegally acquired under their interpretation of the law. Therefore I see no reason as to why the Thai authorities should make exceptions to their laws. It has been always clear for years and years that aliens can not hold freehold property rights. To consider or beleive that for eternity these laws maybe circumnavigated or totally ignored pains me.

All I can say is that it is a pity that the United Kingdom does not have similar laws so that 35 % of Docklands and 83% of governemst stocks is not held by foreigners. Who holds who to ransom ?

Of course it is unfortunate for those people who have parted with their hard earned cash only to be confronted now with the possibilty that they may have to forfeit that. But you know life can be a bitch sometimes. The guilty are the "con-men or Women " who organised it in the first place, not the Thai authorities.

[Vespa]

How about a "how much rent do you pay" and how long have you been here post? show you how much money most people have wasted here over the years. If I lost mine tomorrow, I have saved more in rent payments than the house cost! But then, I have only lived here 15 years, so what do I know against some of you newcomers and tourists.

Do you now know that owning a house via a company is not legal anymore ?

Nor was it ever ?

And if push comes to shove , you'll be out on your ass.

[Geppis72]

We are talking without knowing what's in the new Amendment .

I will not panic "in advance"

I'm worry thats sure, but not yet desperate...

Tell you even more, my house is not finish yet and I'm in the middle of

the payments process, and believe or not in my contract I have the option

to ask back my money to the Develop. at any stage.

Still wait and see, I do not want drop the idea so easy.

[quiksilva]

What you two smart <deleted> miss, is that nobody has lost a single baht yet, apart from the people who didn't buy.

They are quite rightly going for the developers and speculators, which is apparant if you read the article rather than look for some glimmer of hope for you to pop up and say told you so.

Surely if the law has not been passed yet then nobody will have been affected, yet...

I can also see where you are coming from (list 1 activity etc) but you have been here a while (as have I, 10 years myself) so you must know that foreigners for all intents and purposes are not allowed to own land here, any other way for a foreigner to own an interest in land is basically only possible using loopholes to circumvent the spirit of the law, which as we all know is what the ex-PM did and look what happened to him...

So its only prudent to suggest that anyone who uses a "Thai" company to hold any form of real estate (including units in condo projects where the foreign 49% quota has been filled already) to seek legal advice as a matter of high priority, and to do so before this new law comes to pass. Just think of the blood suck... err I mean legal fees as insurance.

T.I.T. Prepare for the worse but hope for the best!

[Moonfruit]

Market experts believe the villa-for-sale market in resort destinations will suffer as a result.

NOW,

What do you know it alls who have been telling everyone not to worry about the Law, but just go ahead and buy have to say ?

I see the shit hitting the fan real soon, anyone want to buy a nice bridge in Brooklyn ?

What you two smart <deleted> miss, is that nobody has lost a single baht yet, apart from the people who didn't buy.

They are quite rightly going for the developers and speculators, which is apparant if you read the article rather than look for some glimmer of hope for you to pop up and say told you so.

There are two things this pompous little rascist could achieve

1,- kill off another tranch of inward investment and get himself sidelined (sacked)

2,- having satisfied people of his nationalist tendancies, back off when confronted with the harsh reality of publicly taking thousands of companies to court (who would give up without a fight?) and evicting or stealing from foreign investors many of whome are retired and elderly! Anyone imagine the army evicting 70 year old farang couples from homes live on CNN, BBC, Fox News ETC? Anyone else has the wife etc. to own the land.

How about a "how much rent do you pay" and how long have you been here post? show you how much money most people have wasted here over the years. If I lost mine tomorrow, I have saved more in rent payments than the house cost! But then, I have only lived here 15 years, so what do I know against some of you newcomers and tourists.

ADVERT.

Newcomer to Thailand selling Encyclopeia,

Never used

Reason for sale, owner knows everything

Please contact Coconutrubber

Who is this legal eagle?

Nobody has lost anything yet, so its all going to be ok?

Been here for 15 years and so knows better than all others? Looks down with disdain on those who have been here for a shorter period of time than he? Indeed, thinks of tourists as idiots it would seem.

Then to be followed up with comments projecting what 'might' happen.

Im on the fence throughout this whole scenario. My company doesnt own land, complies with all relevant laws, including my Thai shareholders being REAL shareholders! However, nobody in their right mind would invest here money that they werent willing to write off!

Think of it as a high return investment. It has a higher chance of going pear shaped, but for some, thats the type of investment they like.

Personally, i like to play safe. My property portfolio stays in the UK, where ive had returns of over 200% over the last 5 years. Dont listen to me though. Ive only lived in Thailand for 5 years.

[Tarqin]

There are two things this pompous little rascist (sic) could achieve

All Thais are racist to the extent that they believe they are far superior to non-Thais. Thaksin called his (massively popular) party Thais love Thais. This is how you get elected in Thailand. Do you not know this after 15 years?

1,- kill off another tranche of inward investment and get himself sidelined (sacked)

Given the choice between inward investment and ownership of land the Thais have always chosen ownership of land. Its a hot button issue for them. One you don't seem to understand after 15 years.

2,- having satisfied people of his nationalist tendencies, back off when confronted with the harsh reality of publicly taking thousands of companies to court (who would give up without a fight?)

Apart from the whole ridiculous idea of a farang going in to a Thai court looking for justice what precisely would you be going to court for? What you did is illegal you knew it was illegal when you did it and now its blown up in your face you are going to court looking for justice. Have you been drinking?

and evicting or stealing from foreign investors many of whom are retired and elderly! Anyone imagine the army evicting 70 year old farang couples from homes live on CNN, BBC, Fox News ETC? Anyone else has the wife etc. to own the land.

Thais don't give a ###### what round eyes think. Do you not know this? Example when it was announce that round eyes would not get interest on bank deposits a Thai I know said 'good teach falang a lesson'. They did not say 'oh my lord this will affect inward investment. This would be a MASSIVELY popular move in Thailand. The more the falangs complained the more the Thais would love it. Do you not understand this after 15 years?

I have saved more in rent payments than the house cost!

Your grasp of economics seems as poor as your control over your spleen. Money is not free. Maybe you could have left the money in the bank and paid rent and come out ahead? Putting the house in the wifes name has been a disaster for more than one falang in LOS.

What makes me think you are either an estate agent or whistling past the graveyard?

[pgrin]

A loophole is an action which violates the spirit of the law while complying with the letter of the law. A perfect example of this is the 30 day border runners who stayed in Thailand indefinately this way. It was never the intent(spirit) of the law to allow this but since it was not expressly forbidden it was not illegal. This is a loophole.

On the other hand, when a foriegn national bribes 4-7 Thai citizens to act as ghost(nominee) shareholders in order to form a fraudulent Thai majority company for the sole purpose of owning land this action violates both the spirit and the letter of the law as the use of nominee shareholders is expressly forbidden. This action is not a loophole, it is simply committing a crime.

P

[Geppis72]

There are two things this pompous little rascist (sic) could achieve

All Thais are racist to the extent that they believe they are far superior to non-Thais. Thaksin called his (massively popular) party Thais love Thais. This is how you get elected in Thailand. Do you not know this after 15 years?

1,- kill off another tranche of inward investment and get himself sidelined (sacked)

Given the choice between inward investment and ownership of land the Thais have always chosen ownership of land. Its a hot button issue for them. One you don't seem to understand after 15 years.

2,- having satisfied people of his nationalist tendencies, back off when confronted with the harsh reality of publicly taking thousands of companies to court (who would give up without a fight?)

Apart from the whole ridiculous idea of a farang going in to a Thai court looking for justice what precisely would you be going to court for? What you did is illegal you knew it was illegal when you did it and now its blown up in your face you are going to court looking for justice. Have you been drinking?

and evicting or stealing from foreign investors many of whom are retired and elderly! Anyone imagine the army evicting 70 year old farang couples from homes live on CNN, BBC, Fox News ETC? Anyone else has the wife etc. to own the land.

Thais don't give a ###### what round eyes think. Do you not know this? Example when it was announce that round eyes would not get interest on bank deposits a Thai I know said 'good teach falang a lesson'. They did not say 'oh my lord this will affect inward investment. This would be a MASSIVELY popular move in Thailand. The more the falangs complained the more the Thais would love it. Do you not understand this after 15 years?

I have saved more in rent payments than the house cost!

Your grasp of economics seems as poor as your control over your spleen. Money is not free. Maybe you could have left the money in the bank and paid rent and come out ahead? Putting the house in the wifes name has been a disaster for more than one falang in LOS.

What makes me think you are either an estate agent or whistling past the graveyard?

BRAVO

Good speech,

Can you just explain to all of us since you looks an expert,

why this country is also called Third World ?

Eventually, explain this also to this guy who said to you :

" good teach falang a lesson."

[quiksilva]

A loophole is an action which violates the spirit of the law while complying with the letter of the law. A perfect example of this is the 30 day border runners who stayed in Thailand indefinately this way. It was never the intent(spirit) of the law to allow this but since it was not expressly forbidden it was not illegal. This is a loophole.

On the other hand, when a foriegn national bribes 4-7 Thai citizens to act as ghost(nominee) shareholders in order to form a fraudulent Thai majority company for the sole purpose of owning land this action violates both the spirit and the letter of the law as the use of nominee shareholders is expressly forbidden. This action is not a loophole, it is simply committing a crime.

P

Well said and point taken, I shall be more careful with my use of the terminology.

[solo siam]

"All Thais are racist to the extent that they believe they are far superior to non-Thais. Thaksin called his (massively popular) party Thais love Thais"

What a load of nonsense, followed by this;

"Thais don't give a ###### what round eyes think. Do you not know this? Example when it was announce that round eyes would not get interest on bank deposits a Thai I know said 'good teach falang a lesson'. They did not say 'oh my lord this will affect inward investment. This would be a MASSIVELY popular move in Thailand. The more the falangs complained the more the Thais would love it. Do you not understand this after 15 years?"

Shows what little you know or perhaps what sort of company you hang out with, Your rants sound more racist than anything I have heard from the average Thai person. With a work permit you get treated much the same as Thais for the majority of things including I believe banking.

[Moonfruit]

There are two things this pompous little rascist (sic) could achieve

All Thais are racist to the extent that they believe they are far superior to non-Thais. Thaksin called his (massively popular) party Thais love Thais. This is how you get elected in Thailand. Do you not know this after 15 years?

1,- kill off another tranche of inward investment and get himself sidelined (sacked)

Given the choice between inward investment and ownership of land the Thais have always chosen ownership of land. Its a hot button issue for them. One you don't seem to understand after 15 years.

2,- having satisfied people of his nationalist tendencies, back off when confronted with the harsh reality of publicly taking thousands of companies to court (who would give up without a fight?)

Apart from the whole ridiculous idea of a farang going in to a Thai court looking for justice what precisely would you be going to court for? What you did is illegal you knew it was illegal when you did it and now its blown up in your face you are going to court looking for justice. Have you been drinking?

and evicting or stealing from foreign investors many of whom are retired and elderly! Anyone imagine the army evicting 70 year old farang couples from homes live on CNN, BBC, Fox News ETC? Anyone else has the wife etc. to own the land.

Thais don't give a ###### what round eyes think. Do you not know this? Example when it was announce that round eyes would not get interest on bank deposits a Thai I know said 'good teach falang a lesson'. They did not say 'oh my lord this will affect inward investment. This would be a MASSIVELY popular move in Thailand. The more the falangs complained the more the Thais would love it. Do you not understand this after 15 years?

I have saved more in rent payments than the house cost!

Your grasp of economics seems as poor as your control over your spleen. Money is not free. Maybe you could have left the money in the bank and paid rent and come out ahead? Putting the house in the wifes name has been a disaster for more than one falang in LOS.

What makes me think you are either an estate agent or whistling past the graveyard?

BRAVO

Good speech,

Can you just explain to all of us since you looks an expert,

why this country is also called Third World ?

Eventually, explain this also to this guy who said to you :

" good teach falang a lesson."

This country is called Third World because it is a Third World country. Unless you want to be politically correct and call it a 'Developing Nation'.

Maybe you could seperate those two tags above and say that Thailand is truly Third World in the sense that it is its own worst enemy when trying to traverse the road to industrialisation, or whatever. Its a totally different argument.

Its a wonderful place, but as with all countries there are big problems. Difference here is that we are expats living here, and those problems are causign US big problems.

Do you really think Joe Public in Thailand has any idea of what is going on regarding foreign investment here? I dont think so, however it is not Joe Public with the power is it?

[steves_the_1]

hahahahaha i love this country. its all going to end in

Edited January 29, 2007 by steves_the_1

[Geppis72]

There are two things this pompous little rascist (sic) could achieve

All Thais are racist to the extent that they believe they are far superior to non-Thais. Thaksin called his (massively popular) party Thais love Thais. This is how you get elected in Thailand. Do you not know this after 15 years?

1,- kill off another tranche of inward investment and get himself sidelined (sacked)

Given the choice between inward investment and ownership of land the Thais have always chosen ownership of land. Its a hot button issue for them. One you don't seem to understand after 15 years.

2,- having satisfied people of his nationalist tendencies, back off when confronted with the harsh reality of publicly taking thousands of companies to court (who would give up without a fight?)

Apart from the whole ridiculous idea of a farang going in to a Thai court looking for justice what precisely would you be going to court for? What you did is illegal you knew it was illegal when you did it and now its blown up in your face you are going to court looking for justice. Have you been drinking?

and evicting or stealing from foreign investors many of whom are retired and elderly! Anyone imagine the army evicting 70 year old farang couples from homes live on CNN, BBC, Fox News ETC? Anyone else has the wife etc. to own the land.

Thais don't give a ###### what round eyes think. Do you not know this? Example when it was announce that round eyes would not get interest on bank deposits a Thai I know said 'good teach falang a lesson'. They did not say 'oh my lord this will affect inward investment. This would be a MASSIVELY popular move in Thailand. The more the falangs complained the more the Thais would love it. Do you not understand this after 15 years?

I have saved more in rent payments than the house cost!

Your grasp of economics seems as poor as your control over your spleen. Money is not free. Maybe you could have left the money in the bank and paid rent and come out ahead? Putting the house in the wifes name has been a disaster for more than one falang in LOS.

What makes me think you are either an estate agent or whistling past the graveyard?

BRAVO

Good speech,

Can you just explain to all of us since you looks an expert,

why this country is also called Third World ?

Eventually, explain this also to this guy who said to you :

" good teach falang a lesson."

This country is called Third World because it is a Third World country. Unless you want to be politically correct and call it a 'Developing Nation'.

Maybe you could seperate those two tags above and say that Thailand is truly Third World in the sense that it is its own worst enemy when trying to traverse the road to industrialisation, or whatever. Its a totally different argument.

Its a wonderful place, but as with all countries there are big problems. Difference here is that we are expats living here, and those problems are causign US big problems.

Do you really think Joe Public in Thailand has any idea of what is going on regarding foreign investment here? I dont think so, however it is not Joe Public with the power is it?

Obviously, I do agree with you,

but I was ref. to Tarqin message, who seems enjoy about the whole situations....

[Arkady]

I was at the FCCT when Krirk-krai made these comments. In fact it happened right at the end when the moderator asked him what would happen to all the foreigners who have bought villas in Phuket and Koh Samui. He didn't refer otherwise mention small shell companies formed to own land in his presentation which was a rambling monologue mainly directed at businesses in the service sector but went off on tangents like how unfair the Americans were to lesser developed countries the WTO Uruguay round. One of the main takeaways was that the reason they are going after voting rights now is that they admit that it is hard to prove that Thais act as nominees but skewed voting rights are obvious. The point is that the FBA amendments are all about Shin Corp and Kularb Kaew. The move against shell companies owning farang villas was started under Thaksin but this latest move doesn't help.

BTW I don't think it is helpful to get hysterical here ground and screaming I told you so. Thai law is often so archaic and convoluted that many Thai businesses habitually break it too to do what would be considered standard business practice in more developed countries. Yes, it is against the law but it is a victimless crime. People like our minister friend would never dream of having to abide by traffic laws or paying duty on his crates of B100,000 a bottle wine. A calm exchange of view and tips would be more helpful than taking the moral high ground. Have you never as much as jaywalked yourself?

[dee123]

ZIMBABWE......ZIMBABWE......

[Arkady]

If this will going to happen, the results will be dramatics even for tourism purpose.

Rather than make all this noise the Govt. should just stop those loophole on land property

from a fix day.

People who already have the land and property should be put in condition

to switch in a legal way to keep what they got. very simple.

Nobody upset, clear statement, everybody save face and money,

you restore a bit of confidence and leasehold will be the only avail. solution

for houses. stop.

I do not want to see big building of 10 floor on Samui Beaches only because the condo are the

only solution to buy in freehold. The environment will suffer much more then now.

I know think the consequence is not in the Thai style.

Yes, they are not willing to allow a graceful amnesty. It was a great opportunity to delete Annex 3 of the FBA completely and to allow reassignable 60 or even 90 year leases as a way out. A carrot and stick approach would have been mutually beneficial. They have decide to offer only the stick.

[Tarqin]

The point about voting rights is pertinent but not the full story. These companies are supposed to be TRADING companies, they are supposed to TRADE which they clearly do not do. As said its isn't a loophole it is an abuse of Thai law that has not yet been addressed.

Why not addressed? Well call me cynical (which I am) but to date there has not been that much dosh in it. Now there is.

The most vulnerable are those with houses on Samui. Prices increased (on paper at least) five fold over the last five years and land that has a nice little set of villas on it now looking pretty attractive as a site for a new hotel complex so may be worth even more.

Powerful Thais including those who sold the villas in the first place place are scenting big dosh and the fact that they can wrap it up in stopping falangs abusing Thai law and owning Thai land is a bonus but they would probably go for it even if it was not illegal.

Side issue, the same thing has happened on the Costa's, its totally illegal, the EU told the Spanish to stop it but it happened anyway.

The point the 'it will never happen' crowd always make it that it will never happen because, its not moral, it will damage inward investment, it will make the country look bad in the international media, its plain bad, old people will be thrown out of their houses, etc etc etc. All of which is irrelevant in a country like Spain so how irrelevant do you think such factors will be in Thailand?

As to the guy who believes that falangs get the same deal as Thais if they have a work permit? Well words fail me. Perhaps he should try a day out in a national park and see what entrance fee he pays?

[solo siam]

I get the same fees as Thais whenever I show my Work Permit actually.

[johnnyk]

All Thais are racist to the extent that they believe they are far superior to non-Thais. Thaksin called his (massively popular) party Thais love Thais. This is how you get elected in Thailand. Do you not know this after 15 years?

The word Thai also means free or freedom. Thailand is "free land" meaning never conquered.

Thai Rak Thai name equally means Thais love freedom

[Tarqin]

I get the same fees as Thais whenever I show my Work Permit actually.

Course you do mate course you do. The fact that the legislation for the parks says 'Thai nationals' pay this price all others pay the higher price doesn't apply to you cause you got a work permit.

JohnnyK I do not dispute what you say but my understanding is Thai Rak Thai (ไทยรักไทย) means literally Thais love Thais and I have never heard any Thai describe the party as anything but this.