Keto and Back

[robblok]

33 minutes ago, THAIPHUKET said:

What would be helpful to the audience=

Short summary and conclusion how to apply the info

That is the problem, neither him nor I know exactly what is true. He has his opinions and I have mine. 

 

We agree on a few things

- don't eat processed carbs

- lower your carb intake if your really heavy / fat as you might be insulin resistant

 

The rest he is super pro low carb I am more a eat less then you burn kind of guy.

 

 

[whitemouse]

On 5/3/2019 at 1:56 PM, FracturedRabbit said:

I am starting a poll to guess on which page of this thread WaveHunter and Robblok will agree on something. Place your bets!

 

I suggest a poll to find out if this anger is result of low carbs, or something else. Low sugar can make people angry, no joke

[robblok]

Just now, whitemouse said:

 

I suggest a poll to find out if this anger is result of low carbs, or something else. Low sugar can make people angry, no joke

There is no anger between me and wavehunter, we pm a lot of messages too. We just don't agree and debate it.

[whitemouse]

Understood ????

 

Seriously tho, keto is by far fastest way to burn fat, but it does make me angry, at times. There is strange, slightly angry feeling, and it doesn't go away, not after weeks, not months on very low to no carbs. And I have found no way to deal with it, to make it go away. It is strange feeling on full keto, like a buzz, but not pleasant lol.

 

Sorry to interrupt ????

[robblok]

@wavehunter

 

I was wrong about leptin it controls appetite not BMR only Lyle Mc Donald said it controlled BMR still it controls appetite once one gets lean enough. I still don't then that KETO will override those signals.

 

But as i told you before this time on low carb I got less problems with appetite. 

[robblok]

11 hours ago, whitemouse said:

Understood ????

 

Seriously tho, keto is by far fastest way to burn fat, but it does make me angry, at times. There is strange, slightly angry feeling, and it doesn't go away, not after weeks, not months on very low to no carbs. And I have found no way to deal with it, to make it go away. It is strange feeling on full keto, like a buzz, but not pleasant lol.

 

Sorry to interrupt ????

No i like people adding information and talking about their preferred way of losing weight. I just don't like extremists who think Keto is the only way.

 

I lose my weight (new) bodybuilding style, meaning no carbs on non training days (4 days per week i just take some heavy ass weights and walk rounds in the park to burn fat those are non training days). The other 3 days I do full body workouts in my gym. On those days I have a meal of macaroni with around 100 grams of uncooked whole wheat macaroni pre workout. (of course i cook it but i weigh it uncooked). I actually weigh all my foods and so i control myself.

 

On previous times that i needed to lose weight i just stayed relatively high carb (still lower as what they recommend by governments). I ate oats and musli in 2 separate meals each and every day and then some sweet patatoe and veggies and meat. I lost weight at the same rate as I am doing now while going far lower on carbs.

 

The only difference so far is that it seems a bit easier to cope less hunger as normal.  If things go on the way i want I will be at my leanest ever end of this month (or maybe later then end of this month if things slow down or if i can still lose more).

 

I got sick last year (sleeping problems). Did not train well for 4 months ate crap (kfc / mc donalds /  pizza company) and gained weight. Now i lost it all and am back to normal but want to go even lower to really have well defined abs. Aiming to go sub 10% on bodyfat. Not really a weight target but a bodyfat target. But to keep things simple i just aim for a certain weight assuming that all i lose is fat as I am on TRT and some other stuff to keep on to muscles plus the hard working out helps.

 

Im pretty sure my body knows how to burn fat, but I really think that some of the supplements I am taking are helping as I have far less platteau's as i used to have. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by robblok

[WaveHunter]

14 hours ago, robblok said:

That is the problem, neither him nor I know exactly what is true. He has his opinions and I have mine. 

 

We agree on a few things

- don't eat processed carbs

- lower your carb intake if your really heavy / fat as you might be insulin resistant

 

The rest he is super pro low carb I am more a eat less then you burn kind of guy.

 

 

Just to set record straight, I am not “super low carb”.  I feel like I’m going crazy trying to make you understand this LOL.

 

I actually do not believe in low carb diets any more than I believe in high carb diets.  Fact is I don’t believe in weight loss “diets” period!

 

For most people, none of them work in the long term, and they all constitute an unhealthy lifestyle.  If any of them worked, you wouldn’t be seeing countless new fad diets appearing every day, and more importantly, you wouldn’t see an epidemic of obesity and Diabetes Type-2 today.

 

What I do believe took me a long time to figure out.  The one thing in common with all weight loss diets is that they only focus on restricting calories but do not address the real underlying cause of fat accumulation.

 

Excessive calories don’t make you fat.  Carbs and sugar don’t make you fat,  dietary fat doesn’t make you fat.  What makes you fat is that we have lost the ability to use dietary fat as a primary fuel source, and are almost totally glucose-dependent.

 

So, what I believe in, and what research has proven is that the ability to use fat as a PRIMARY fuel source, in addition to glucose, is the key to healthy body composition.

 

Our ancient ancestors were equally adept at using BOTH fats (stored body fat and exogenous) as well as glucose, as a PRIMARY fuel source.  Their survival depended on this!  We wouldn’t be here today if that were not so.

 

Today we have supermarkets, refrigerators, and fast foods.  As a result, he never have to tap into stored reserves of body fat.  Like many things in life, if something isn’t practiced regularly, the ability to do it is lost.  We’ve lost the ability to use fat as a primary fuel, and that’s why we have become an obese and sick society if people!

 

So, the question is: How do you restore that lost ability?  The answer is to become “keto adapted” once again.  I emphasize the word “again” because that’s what our ancestors had; they had the ability to use ketones!  We do not.

 

i know the term “keto” is a big buzz word these days with regard to many weight loss diets, but most of what you hear from the so-called health gurus is a bunch of nonsense designed to make them money.  The real essence of “keto adaptation” is science-based and genuine.

 

In order for the body to work in an optimal way, metabolic pathways for BOTH glucose-based and fat-based metabolisms must operate  effectively as PRIMARY fuel sources. Fat-based metabolism relies on ketones to do this.

 

So, you might say, OK, I’ll try this new ketogenic diet I heard some guru raging about because he claims to have lost some fantastic amo7nt of weight in a short time, and then find out he was full of sh*t!  It didn’t work!

 

Why didn’t it work?  Because simply getting yourself into ketosis is not the complete answer.  Even if you get your body to produce ketones, it doesn’t know what to do with them!.

 

THAT is what keto-adaptation is all about, and that’s why I say that weight loss diets, including ketogenic diets do not work.  You have to re-train the body to use ketones effectively, the way our ancestors were able to do!

 

Keto-adaptation is the key to restoring a natural and optimal metabolic state that relies on BOTH glucose and fats effectively, instead of just glucose.

 

Like anything, it doesn’t just happen overnight.  It’s not going to magically happen in some crazy 7 day diet that’s touted by some dopey health guru.  It can take months to achieve, but along the way you’ll be seeing noticeable changes in your body, your health, and the way you feel.

 

YES, Becoming keto-adapted requires VERY LOW CARBS to achieve, but once a person has become keto-adapted, they can go back to using carbs in their diet again because their body will now know how to use them AND FATS effectively.

 

My favorite analogy of Keto-adaptation is likening it to the way hybrid engines use BOTH gasoline and electricity to produce energy more effectively than either could do on its own. 

 

Anyway, that’s what I believe.  If anyone wants to figure out how to do it, don’t just view some dopey health guru’s YouTube video.  Find yourself a truly science-based source to learn about this.

 

Personally, I’d recommend books or YouTube presentations by Drs. Stephen D. Phinney or Jeff S. Volek.  They are both academic based scientists leading cutting-edge research into keto-based performance training for athletes, and probably have the best overall understanding of Keto-adaptation out there.

 

In closing, I just want to say, I believe in all of this passionately.  For a long time I explored all sorts of “diets”.  At various stages if my life, it may have been to enhance athletic performance, to lose weight, or to address health issues.  I pretty much tried them all; Paleo, Vegan, High Carb/Low Fat, Low Carb/High Fat, you name it.  In hind-site, none were very effective in achieving my goal.  Keto adaptation has worked well...and guess what?  I’ll never have to go on another diet or be counting calories again...ever!

 

 

Edited May 6, 2019 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Just to set record straight, I am not “super low carb”.  I feel like I’m going crazy trying to make you understand this LOL.

 

I actually do not believe in low carb diets any more than I believe in high carb diets.  Fact is I don’t believe in weight loss “diets” period!

 

For most people, none of them work in the long term, and they all constitute an unhealthy lifestyle.  If any of them worked, you wouldn’t be seeing countless new fad diets appearing every day, and more importantly, you wouldn’t see an epidemic of obesity and Diabetes Type-2 today.

 

What I do believe took me a long time to figure out.  The one thing in common with all weight loss diets is that they only focus on restricting calories but do not address the real underlying cause of fat accumulation.

 

Excessive calories don’t make you fat.  Carbs and sugar don’t make you fat,  dietary fat doesn’t make you fat.  What makes you fat is that we have lost the ability to use dietary fat as a primary fuel source, and almost totally glucose-dependent.

 

So, what I believe in, and what research has proven is that the ability to use fat as a PRIMARY fuel source, in addition to glucose, is the key to healthy body composition.

 

Our ancient ancestors were equally adept at using BOTH fats (stored body fat as well as exogenous) as well as glucose, as a PRIMARY fuel source.  Their survival depended on this!  We wouldn’t be here today if that were not so.

 

Today we have supermarkets, refrigerators, and fast foods.  As a result, he never have to tap into stored reserves of body fat.  Like many things in life, if something isn’t practiced regularly, the ability to do it is lost.  We’ve lost that ability, and that’s why we have become an obese and sick society if people!

 

So, the question is: How do you restore that lost ability?  The answer is to become “keto adapted” once again.  I emphasize the word “again” because that’s what our ancestors had; they had the ability to use ketones!

 

i know the term “keto” is a big buzz word these days with regard to many weight loss diets, but most of what you hear from the so-called health gurus is a bunch of nonsense designed to make them money.  The real essence of “keto adaptation” is science-based and genuine.

 

In order for the body to work in an optimal way, metabolic pathways for BOTH glucose-based and fat-based metabolisms must operate  effectively as PRIMARY fuel sources. Fat-based metabolism relies on ketones to do this.

 

So, you might say, OK, I’ll try this new ketogenic diet I heard some guru raging about because he claims to have lost some fantastic amo7nt of weight in a short time, and then find out he was full of sh*t!  It didn’t work!

 

Why didn’t it work?  Because simply getting yourself into ketosis is not the complete answer.  Even if you get your body to produce ketones, it doesn’t know what to do with them!.

 

THAT is what keto-adaptation is all about, and that’s why I say that weight loss diets, including ketogenic diets do not work.  You have to re-train the body to use ketones effectively, the way our ancestors were able to do!

 

Keto-adaptation is the key to restoring a natural and optimal metabolic state that relies on BOTH glucose and fats effectively, instead of just glucose.

 

Like anything, it doesn’t just happen overnight.  It’s not going to magically happen in some crazy 7 day diet that’s touted by some dopey health guru.  It can take months to achieve, but along the way you’ll be seeing noticeable changes in your body, your health, and the way you feel.

 

YES, Becoming keto-adapted requires VERY LOW CARBS to achieve, but once a person has become keto-adapted, they can go back to using carbs in their diet again because their body will now know how to use them AND FATS effectively.

 

My favorite analogy of Keto-adaptation is likening it to the way hybrid engines use BOTH gasoline and electricity to produce energy more effectively than either could do on its own. 

 

Anyway, that’s what I believe.  If anyone wants to figure out how to do it, don’t just view some dopey health guru’s YouTube video.  Find yourself a truly science-based source to learn about this.

 

Personally, I’d recommend books or YouTube presentations by Drs. Stephen D. Phinney or Jeff S. Volek.  They are both academic based scientists leading cutting-edge research into keto-based performance training for athletes, and probably have the best overall understanding of Keto-adaptation out there.

 

In closing, I just want to say, I believe in all of this passionately.  For a long time I explored all sorts of “diets”.  At various stages if my life, it may have been to enhance athletic performance, to lose weight, or to address health issues.  I pretty much tried them all; Paleo, Vegan, High Carb/Low Fat, Low Carb/High Fat, you name it.  In hind-site, none were very effective in achieving my goal.  Keto adaptation has worked well...and guess what?  I’ll never have to go on another diet or be counting calories again...ever!

 

 

I don't believe in diets too, its a lifestyle change.

 

However I believe your totally wrong if you say that excessive calories don't make you fat. But its easy to settle this one. You just take 100 ml MCT oil per day extra on top of what your eating now. If you after 2 weeks have not gained any weight I will believe you. (900 calories a day should make difference).

 

The ability to burn fat is nice but you still need to burn it meaning burning more then what you consume. So it still has to do with excess calories. 

 

I doubt my body has problems burning fat seeing how I am losing it and i also disagree that you need to be keto adapted to burn fat. The body is not as stupid as you make it out to be.

 

But I do agree its best to have a body that can switch easily between fuels, you can only do that by letting your body use both fuels not just one. 

[WaveHunter]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

I don't believe in diets too, its a lifestyle change.

 

However I believe your totally wrong if you say that excessive calories don't make you fat. But its easy to settle this one. You just take 100 ml MCT oil per day extra on top of what your eating now. If you after 2 weeks have not gained any weight I will believe you. (900 calories a day should make difference).

 

The ability to burn fat is nice but you still need to burn it meaning burning more then what you consume. So it still has to do with excess calories. 

 

I doubt my body has problems burning fat seeing how I am losing it and i also disagree that you need to be keto adapted to burn fat. The body is not as stupid as you make it out to be.

 

But I do agree its best to have a body that can switch easily between fuels, you can only do that by letting your body use both fuels not just one. 

Now you’re just nit-picking.  I think you know I’m not saying excessive calories will not allow for fat loss.  When you say something like that and ignore my main point, you’re just playing devil’s advocate.

 

And BTW I do use MCT oil because it’s an excellent source of fat that provide calories without carbs, and so do many people on a ketogenic diet, who’s primary goal is to lose weight, and gues what?  They lose weight!  And the reason they lose weight even when using massive amounts of MCT is because they are keto-adapted.  Google it and find out for yourself if you don’t believe me.

 

Always enjoy our mental sparring ????. One of these days I hope you see the light!

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Now you’re just nit-picking.  I think you know I’m not saying excessive calories will not allow for fat loss.  When you say something like that and ignore my main point, you’re just playing devil’s advocate.

 

And BTW I do use MCT oil because it’s an excellent source of fat that provide calories without carbs, and so do many people on a ketogenic diet, who’s primary goal is to lose weight, and gues what?  They lose weight!  And the reason they lose weight even when using massive amounts of MCT is because they are keto-adapted.  Google it and find out for yourself if you don’t believe me.

 

Always enjoy our mental sparring ????. One of these days I hope you see the light!

No i was serious about the fact that excessive calories will be stored as fat and that calories in vs calories out matter. Its not a 1 to 1 relation its more complex but excess calories will be stored as fat (or muscle if your working out hard).

 

I do use MCT oil too i got 2 liters in the fridge i combine it with my protein shakes. 

 

I just think the body is a lot smarter then you assume it is. 

[WaveHunter]

30 minutes ago, robblok said:

I don't believe in diets too, its a lifestyle change.

 

However I believe your totally wrong if you say that excessive calories don't make you fat. But its easy to settle this one. You just take 100 ml MCT oil per day extra on top of what your eating now. If you after 2 weeks have not gained any weight I will believe you. (900 calories a day should make difference).

 

The ability to burn fat is nice but you still need to burn it meaning burning more then what you consume. So it still has to do with excess calories. 

 

I doubt my body has problems burning fat seeing how I am losing it and i also disagree that you need to be keto adapted to burn fat. The body is not as stupid as you make it out to be.

 

But I do agree its best to have a body that can switch easily between fuels, you can only do that by letting your body use both fuels not just one. 

Sorry, I jumped the gun in my last reply without reading your entire post.  I apologize.

 

im glad you agree about the ability to switch fuels as an important thing.  You probably are better at it than many, but whether you realize it or not, you are probably using ketones to do it, and you could probably be even better at it if you trained your body to do it even more effectively.  

 

That’s what a lot of athletes are beginning to realize, and believe it or not, that includes body builders and power lifters.

 

We’re not that far apart in our thinking.  I just hope I’m impressing you with the fact that I have nothing against carbs per se...providing your body is keto-adapted..  Keto-adaptation, not low carbs is what I believe in.

Edited May 6, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

I’m sure you’re familiar with the term “bonking” but for those who are not, that’s when a high performance athlete runs out of glycogen stores and can not perform any longer.

 

Athletes are interested in keto-adaptation because, in that state they can more easily, and more quickly draw on fat reserves.  

 

It was originally thought this could not happen quickly enough to help during competition but research is now indicating that it is entirely likely that it can (per research being conducted by Phinney, Volek et al).

 

It’s an amazing concept when you consider how little our capacity is to store glucose and how  vast our fat stores are.

 

Just food for thought ????

Edited May 6, 2019 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

20 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I’m sure you’re familiar with the term “bonking” but for those who are not, that’s when a high performance athlete runs out of glycogen stores and can not perform any longer.

 

Athletes are interested in keto-adaptation because, in that state they can more easily, and more quickly draw on fat reserves.  

 

It was originally thought this could not happen quickly enough to help during competition but research is now indicating that it is entirely likely that it can (per research being conducted by Phinney, Volek et al).

 

It’s an amazing concept when you consider how little our capacity is to store glucose and how  vast our fat stores are.

 

Just food for thought ????

Your glucose stores are little mine are a lot bigger, more muscle more glucose to store.. add some creatine and even more can be stored. But compared to fat its nothing. 

 

I must be adapted as I am low carb now for month at end without really failing my diet just once.

 

The two reasons its going so good is less hunger as before, and i see the weight dropping. Its hard to keep to a diet (i know life style change but i call it diet when im on a caloric deficit) when you see no results.

[robblok]

30 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Sorry, I jumped the gun in my last reply without reading your entire post.  I apologize.

 

im glad you agree about the ability to switch fuels as an important thing.  You probably are better at it than many, but whether you realize it or not, you are probably using ketones to do it, and you could probably be even better at it if you trained your body to do it even more effectively.  

 

That’s what a lot of athletes are beginning to realize, and believe it or not, that includes body builders and power lifters.

 

We’re not that far apart in our thinking.  I just hope I’m impressing you with the fact that I have nothing against carbs per se...providing your body is keto-adapted..  Keto-adaptation, not low carbs is what I believe in.

I told you before you are right there are lots of coaches now preaching that we should be able to use both fuels called it a flexible metabolism. That is what I am aiming for. 

 

To be honest it seems to work pretty good this time. But I am putting a lot of hard work in it and a lot of discipline food wise. My not gf put some nice bars of Ikea chocolate in the fridge they have been there for weeks and I havent touched them (hard for me to do). I did ask her why she bought them if she is not eating them. 

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Your glucose stores are little mine are a lot bigger, more muscle more glucose to store.. add some creatine and even more can be stored. But compared to fat its nothing. 

 

I must be adapted as I am low carb now for month at end without really failing my diet just once.

 

The two reasons its going so good is less hunger as before, and i see the weight dropping. Its hard to keep to a diet (i know life style change but i call it diet when im on a caloric deficit) when you see no results.

Good point.  Positive psychological feedback is so important with anything whether it's performance training, diet, whatever.  It's real hard to stick with something if all you get is negative feedback.  Sometimes you have to have enough will power and patience to wait for the positive feedback but knowing that doesn't make it any easier.

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

I told you before you are right there are lots of coaches now preaching that we should be able to use both fuels called it a flexible metabolism. That is what I am aiming for. 

 

To be honest it seems to work pretty good this time. But I am putting a lot of hard work in it and a lot of discipline food wise. My not gf put some nice bars of Ikea chocolate in the fridge they have been there for weeks and I havent touched them (hard for me to do). I did ask her why she bought them if she is not eating them. 

LOL; that's funny.  Do you think she was taunting you with the chocolate? 

 

I didn't know Ikea made chocolate; I though they just made furniture.  Does their chocolate taste like wood?

 

Edited May 6, 2019 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

LOL; that's funny.  Do you think she was taunting you with the chocolate?  I didn't know Ikea made chocolate; I though they just made furniture.  DOes their chocolate taste like wood?

Ikea has a whole assortiment of nice food and the Ikea is only a few KM away from my home. The chocolate is much cheaper there as anywhere else in Thailand. 3 big bars 100 baht.   Yes I am sure she was taunting me she knows i love chocolate. 

[WaveHunter]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

Ikea has a whole assortiment of nice food and the Ikea is only a few KM away from my home. The chocolate is much cheaper there as anywhere else in Thailand. 3 big bars 100 baht.   Yes I am sure she was taunting me she knows i love chocolate. 

Now that's just plain mean of her LOL!!!  She probably deserves a healthy dose of Karma; what goes around usually comes back around ????

 

[WaveHunter]

Just an off-topic question:  If you buy meat and freeze it, then thaw it in a refrigerator (not on the countertop), can you then re-freeze it without concern for bacteria if you do it within 24 hours of thawing it?  I see a lot of mixed ideas on this from googling.  Just wondering if anyone ACTUALLY knows. 

 

Also, what about the texture of the meat if you do that; does it ruin the way it tastes afterwards?

Edited May 6, 2019 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

2 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Just an off-topic question:  If you buy meat and freeze it, then thaw it in a refrigerator (not on the countertop), can you then re-freeze it without concern for bacteria if you do it within 24 hours of thawing it?  I see a lot of mixed ideas on this from googling.  Just wondering if anyone ACTUALLY knows. 

 

Also, what about the texture of the meat if you do that; does it ruin the way it tastes afterwards?

Good question, like you i buy in big but i buy it unfrozen and cut it in portions of a little under 200 grams and package it then separately. For me the most important thing is to have food ready for preparation so I won't have to make bad choices.

 

Personally I would not worry about bacteria if you defrost it in a refrigerator but I have no clue about taste.