Testosterone, steroids, etc.

[NightSky]

10 hours ago, Ks45672 said:

Tamoxifen will not "reverse" gyno but it will stop it getting any worse

 

Letrozole is probably a better bet 

 

 

 

Depends how much gyno you have though, arimidex and reducing body fat helps but surgery is usually the only way to get rid of it after a certain point

 

 

That’s all good and well to say although is your advice based on personal experience or simply based on info from body building forums etc? 

 

I’ve researched this every day for the past couple of months and there are lots of studies available stating that tamoxifen did get rid of gyno within 1-3 months with a high success rate.

 

my doctor also stated we have time to reverse it since it is only recently onset last few months but it came so quickly, it can happen fast.

 

also there is a lot of information on the web saying that gyno can be reversed if onset is less than 12 to 18 months And if the underlying condition that caused it is treated. In my case this is low t. If it goes away enough not to be noticeable I’ll be happy with that. 

 

its really annoying of course and surgery is both costly and unwanted so just to say what you said without any resources backing it up is concerning as are all the body building forums that repeat the same thing.

 

Please remember my t and e levels are both very low so it’s the ratio that caused it not excess amounts of testosterone. 

 

My doc didn’t prescribe arimidex when asked so where would I buy letrozole or arimidex and how much does it cost?

 

also how long are you thinking when you say one should book surgery. This is a very important statement you make since surgery with Anaesthesia and recovery time and cost involved isn’t taken lightly.

 

 

[NightSky]

10 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

You can easily get Free T tested anywhere blood tests are done in Bangkok (or anwhere in Thailand for that matter).  If they don’t actually run the analysis (which very few labs do), they simply send it to a lab that does.  My lab in Chiang Mai did that.

Thanks for that. Both you and mockwit seen to differ on opinion. That’s ok.

 

I must admit i didn’t actually see free t level tests available either at the one clinic and two hospitals I visited where I got the total t tests done. I’ll keep asking though.

[mokwit]

6 hours ago, NightSky said:

Thanks for that. Both you and mockwit seen to differ on opinion. That’s ok.

 

I must admit i didn’t actually see free t level tests available either at the one clinic and two hospitals I visited where I got the total t tests done. I’ll keep asking though.

If your blood tests did not include SHBG, next time ask for that also (around Bt2000 I think). You could also request Albumin levels to get a more exact reading but they are pretty consistent so you can use the number given in the calculator I posted. With Total T, SHBG and Albumin you can calculate your Free T with the calculator I posted. This is how free T level is normally obtained. Testing direct is possible but rarely done, even where available. Note Danazol use will almost certainly make it difficult to be sure what your actual free T is as it displaces T from SHBG so quite possibly more of your T is free than the calculation suggests. If you can get it tested directly do so if using danazol.

[NightSky]

4 minutes ago, mokwit said:

If your blood tests did not include SHBG, next time ask for that also (around Bt2000 I think). You could also request Albumin levels to get a more exact reading but they are pretty consistent so you can use the number given in the calculator I posted. With Total T, SHBG and Albumin you can calculate your Free T with the calculator I posted. This is how free T level is normally obtained. Testing direct is possible but rarely done, even where available.

Yes I did get the shbg just under 2000baht ish

 

yes the calculator is good thanks.

[mokwit]

5 minutes ago, NightSky said:

Yes I did get the shbg just under 2000baht ish

 

yes the calculator is good thanks.

As per my edit.

'Note Danazol use will almost certainly make it difficult to be sure what your actual free T is as it displaces T from SHBG so quite possibly more of your T is free than the calculation suggests. If you can get it tested directly do so if using danazol. '

 

Danazol likely distorts the result as will Proviron, DHT Andriol or anything that displaces T from SHBG as per the calculator site warning:

 

WARNING! The calculated free and bioavailable testosterone are reliable in most clinical situations, but should not be relied upon in situations with potential massive interference by steroids binding to SHBG; e.g. in women during pregnancy, in men during treatment inducing high levels of DHT (e.g. transdermal DHT, oral testosterone) or mesterolon

[WaveHunter]

9 hours ago, NightSky said:

Thanks for that. Both you and mockwit seen to differ on opinion. That’s ok.

 

I must admit i didn’t actually see free t level tests available either at the one clinic and two hospitals I visited where I got the total t tests done. I’ll keep asking though.

I just looked back at my blood tests, and it is E2 (Estradiol) that needed to be sent to a Bangkok lab for analysis as the lab in Chiang Mai was incapable of doing an analysis, not Free-T.  Mockwit is correct; Free-T is a calculated result based on Total T, SHGB and Albumin.

[mokwit]

23 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I'm not sure I understand; what is there to contest with what I said?

 

There are indeed very few labs that can analyze blood for free T, but any lab can draw blood and send sample to one of those labs that have that capability.  It's a VERY common practice.  When I lived in Chiang Mai, there was no lab up there that could run the analysis for free T, so my sample was sent to a lab in Bangkok that had that capability.  No big deal; it took a couple of days to get results.  Just ask your lab; Free-T is usually not a listed test since it's not commonly requested.  If they say they can not help you that is a definite "red flag", find a more professional lab.

EDIT: did not see your previous reply which answered my question below. Leaving it rather than deleting but can be ignored.

 

When you say free T do you mean calculated or directly measured? If directly measured how is it identified as such?Free T is almost always calculated from T SHBG and Albumin, not measured directly e.g. by use of Gas chromatography  or mass spectrometry. While you are almost certainly getting a number for free T, I doubt that it is directly measured, more likely calculated. How much did your free T cost?

 

AS far as I am aware from talking with clinic, directly measured free T is not available in Bangkok just as DHT and Sensetive E are not either - my DHT I think was done in Singapore - took two weeks for result, not same day O/N for all others.

 

If you are sure your free T was directly measured I would like to know as I want that rather than calculated.

 

I guess that what is most likely is that the clinic that draws blood in Chiang Mai sends all its blood to alab in Bangkok for any analysis.

[NightSky]

19 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I just looked back at my blood tests, and it is E2 (Estradiol) that needed to be sent to a Bangkok lab for analysis as the lab in Chiang Mai was incapable of doing an analysis.  Mockwit is correct; it is a calculated result based on Total T, SHGB and Albumin

That’s a relief I was begining to think I’m missing out on not having my free t blood test lol thanks for confirming I’m all set now ????????

[WaveHunter]

13 minutes ago, mokwit said:

When you say free T do you mean calculated or directly measured? If directly measured how is it identified as such?Free T is almost always calculated from T SHBG and Albumin, not measured directly e.g. by use of Gas chromatography  or mass spectrometry. While you are almost certainly getting a number for free T, I doubt that it is directly measured, more likely calculated. How much did your free T cost?

 

AS far as I am aware from talking with clinic, directly measured free T is not available in Bangkok just as DHT and Sensetive E are not either - my DHT I think was done in Singapore - took two weeks for result, not same day O/N for all others.

 

If you are sure your free T was directly measured I would like to know as I want that rather than calculated.

 

I guess that what is most likely is that the clinic that draws blood in Chiang Mai sends all its blood to alab in Bangkok for any analysis.

I just corrected my response to NightSky; I was mistaken about which tests were which.  You are correct, my Free T was calculated, not directly measured.  I was actually thinking about E2, which my lab in Chiang Mai needed to send to Bangkok for analysis.  Sorry about causing the confusion. ????

 

[mokwit]

6 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I just corrected my response to NightSky; I was mistaken about which tests were which.  You are correct, my Free T was calculated, not directly measured.  I was actually thinking about E2, which my lab in Chiang Mai needed to send to Bangkok for analysis.  Sorry about causing the confusion. ????

 

I left my post #942 up- I missed your previous response which answered my question in #942.

 

Just checked- my DHT was donein Bangkok but by a completely different lab tothe one that did everything in a full blood panel.

[WaveHunter]

25 minutes ago, mokwit said:

I left my post #942 up- I missed your previous response which answered my question in #942.

 

Just checked- my DHT was donein Bangkok but by a completely different lab tothe one that did everything in a full blood panel.

Having more than one lab analyzing your samples seems to be pretty common here in Thailand; never experienced that back in the States...but this is Thailand, and as they say...they do things a little differently here.  But, considering the incredibly low costs of testing here compared with the States, I'm certainly not complaining.

 

[Ks45672]

On 4/13/2019 at 3:43 AM, NightSky said:

That’s all good and well to say although is your advice based on personal experience or simply based on info from body building forums etc? 

 

I’ve researched this every day for the past couple of months and there are lots of studies available stating that tamoxifen did get rid of gyno within 1-3 months with a high success rate.

 

my doctor also stated we have time to reverse it since it is only recently onset last few months but it came so quickly, it can happen fast.

 

also there is a lot of information on the web saying that gyno can be reversed if onset is less than 12 to 18 months And if the underlying condition that caused it is treated. In my case this is low t. If it goes away enough not to be noticeable I’ll be happy with that. 

 

its really annoying of course and surgery is both costly and unwanted so just to say what you said without any resources backing it up is concerning as are all the body building forums that repeat the same thing.

 

Please remember my t and e levels are both very low so it’s the ratio that caused it not excess amounts of testosterone. 

 

My doc didn’t prescribe arimidex when asked so where would I buy letrozole or arimidex and how much does it cost?

 

also how long are you thinking when you say one should book surgery. This is a very important statement you make since surgery with Anaesthesia and recovery time and cost involved isn’t taken lightly.

 

 

Let's start off with the usual disclaimer "I am not a doctor" 

 

I have taken higher than trt doses in the past and when I started to get the itchy/puffy nipple on one side I knew it was aromatising because those are the classical symptoms I've read about for years

 

I can only tell you what worked for me and nobody knows how much gyno you have except you

 

Mammary tissue cannot be "ungrown" for lack of a better word and everything I've read supports that but most people are not as bad as they think they are and just have something like "swollen nipples" and that's where tamoxifen, clomid, arimidex, letro,and extra chest exercises(to tighten the skin) come in to reduce it back to unnoticeable levels

 

(also cut out excess sugar and beer helped for me) 

 

There is plenty of letro in bkk, pm me for some pharmacys if necessary, its not all that expensive, around 1400-1500 a box of you decide to try it

 

The Internet is no substitute for meeting a real endocrinologist so basically all we can do here is share our collective experience but if you can see a prof endo go for it 

 

Do you have any idea what your body fat % is? 

 

[Ks45672]

This Dr has a few good videos on gyno and trt related issues that are probably worth watching :

 

 

 

[mokwit]

He (Dr Rand Mclain) absolutely knows his stuff IMO.

[NightSky]

4 hours ago, Ks45672 said:

This Dr has a few good videos on gyno and trt related issues that are probably worth watching :

 

Yes Ive seen this video and in it he says tamoxifen can reverse gyno issues to the extent it’s no longer relevant albeit not 100% but good enough to no longer matter.

 

Also use along with an ai like arimidex for example (or letrezole) will help.

 

Im wondering though in my case would starting testosterone help since I’m medically low on testosterone and is this determined to reduce fertility or are there ways around that issue, is that where hgh helps?

[Ks45672]

On 4/14/2019 at 9:58 AM, NightSky said:

Yes Ive seen this video and in it he says tamoxifen can reverse gyno issues to the extent it’s no longer relevant albeit not 100% but good enough to no longer matter.

 

Also use along with an ai like arimidex for example (or letrezole) will help.

 

Im wondering though in my case would starting testosterone help since I’m medically low on testosterone and is this determined to reduce fertility or are there ways around that issue, is that where hgh helps?

Tamoxifen will stop it getting any worse

He also said if you have a lump the size of a marble it's actually around the size of a golf ball when they cut it out 

 

The operation is fairly minimimal as surgeries go, they can make an incision in the underarm cavity and cut it out from there and it doesn't leave anything much noticeable 

 

Watch the rest of his videos, some of them go into it in more detail but it depends on how bad it is to begin with.... 

[eezergood]

Who can recommend a TRT clinic/DR ? thanks in advance

 

[ncc1701d]

I can’t recommend them as I’ve never used them, only that I’ve seen them when driving past. 

 

Maximum Performance Wellness Center-Pattaya
245/9-10 Moo 9, Pattaya Klang Road, Muang Pattaya, Amphoe Bang Lamung, Chang Wat Chon Buri 20150, Thailand
+66 82 988 3515
https://goo.gl/maps/RJceaiMiFWmpRm268

[Dobby345]

Hey guys. 

 

I want to run a test e course stacked with winstrol. 

 

Need to know how and what does I should take. 

 

I am experienced in usage just want to know what would be the best way to stack these two? 

 

Start with test and use winnie for last 4 weeks? 

What's the preferred duration of this stack? 

 

Tia

[Bob12345]

@Dobby345

Experienced in usage but not knowing how and what dosage to take?

 

Dosages differ per person and depend on goals, risk/return perception, training years, age, etc.

Based on what do you want us to advice you? 

Have you done your bloodwork already?

 

Based on what you write my advice would be: hire a coach to help you with this; never ever ask unknown people on an internet forum what and how much to take.

If you are interested i can give you the contact details of an expert in Thailand who competes at a high level and is specialized in responsible and long-term use to reach your personal goals. Send me a PM and i will give you his site so you can see if it is something for you.

[ncc1701d]

I agree with Bob. So many factors are involved with your decision. But you’re probably not going to listen anyway. I’ve decided to stop completely and focus on diet, exercise and flexibility. No cycle is going to do what I ultimately want it to do for me. So... 

 

to do it properly takes planning, research and a lot of cash. 

 

 

Week	Test cyp	Winstrol	DecaNan	AI	HCG	Nolva
1	200 mg/wk	X	200mg/wk	0.25mg 2/wk	250iu 2/wk	20mg as req’d
2	200 mg/wk	X	200mg/wk	0.25mg 2/wk	250iu 2/wk	20mg as req’d
3	200 mg/wk	X	200mg/wk	0.25mg 2/wk	250iu 2/wk	20mg as req’d
4	200 mg/wk	X	200mg/wk	0.25mg 2/wk	250iu 2/wk	20mg as req’d
5	200 mg/wk	50mg	200mg/wk	0.25mg 2/wk	250iu 2/wk	20mg as req’d
6	200 mg/wk	50mg	200mg/wk	0.25mg 2/wk	250iu 2/wk	20mg as req’d
7	200 mg/wk	50mg	200mg/wk	0.25mg 2/wk	250iu 2/wk	20mg as req’d
8	200 mg/wk	50mg	200mg/wk	0.25mg 2/wk	250iu 2/wk	20mg as req’d
9	200 mg/wk	50mg	200mg/wk	0.25mg 2/wk	250iu 2/wk	20mg as req’d
10	200 mg/wk	50mg	200mg/wk	0.25mg 2/wk	250iu 2/wk	20mg as req’d
11	200 mg/wk	50mg	X	0.25mg 2/wk	250iu 2/wk	20mg as req’d
12	200 mg/wk	50mg	X	0.25mg 2/wk	250iu 2/wk	20mg as req’d
13	X	X	X	X	X	X
14	X	X	X	X	X	X
15	X	X	X	X	X	40mg ED
16	X	X	X	X	X	20mg ED
17	X	X	X	X	X	20mg ED
18	X	X	X	X	X	10mg ED
19	X	X	X	X	X	X
20	X	X	X	X	X	X
21	X	X	X	X	X	X
22	X	X	X	X	X	X
23	X	X	X	X	X	X
24	X	X	X	X	X	X

 

[WaveHunter]

On 6/25/2019 at 8:10 AM, eezergood said:

Who can recommend a TRT clinic/DR ? thanks in advance

 

Best to stay away from clinics that advertise and find a GP that has a good understanding of TRT and is not going to rip you off or give bad advice simply to increase their bottom line.  Many of those clinics are notorious for that.

 

When I started TRT I consulted with an endocrinologist, but when I moved to Thailand I found a great GP in Chiang Mai who had an excellent understanding of TRT and was just as good.

 

If you can't find one to your liking, I'd suggest even going to one of the big hospitals and talk to a GP there.  I had to consult with one here in Pattaya recently and the doctor was very knowledgeable and open minded about TRT.

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, Bob12345 said:

@Dobby345

Experienced in usage but not knowing how and what dosage to take?

 

Dosages differ per person and depend on goals, risk/return perception, training years, age, etc.

Based on what do you want us to advice you? 

Have you done your bloodwork already?

 

Based on what you write my advice would be: hire a coach to help you with this; never ever ask unknown people on an internet forum what and how much to take.

If you are interested i can give you the contact details of an expert in Thailand who competes at a high level and is specialized in responsible and long-term use to reach your personal goals. Send me a PM and i will give you his site so you can see if it is something for you.

Normally it's best to first consult with an MD, even if you are not doing this for TRT but more for bodybuilding. 

 

You really want an experienced physician to analyze your blood work before you start to use steroids for whatever reason.  Be totally upfront and honest with the Doctor.  You'd be surprised how many well qualified and caring MD's are open-minded enough to advise you on "non traditional" use of steroids.  Go to a gym known for bodybuilding and ask around for a referral to one.

 

That being said, it's true there are many bodybuilders themselves who probably know more about steroids than physicians.  Contrary to popular belief, some of those guys are not the stereotyped lunkheads who just pump iron.  Some are very intelligent and well versed in safe and effective use of steroids for a given purpose.  I know one at my gym who's day job is being a research biochemist at a major university!

 

Just remember, use of any type of steroids for any reason at all can have serious negative effects on your long-term health, and some of those effects can be irreversible, so don't take chances.  Do it the right way.

[eezergood]

On 9/16/2019 at 9:36 PM, Dobby345 said:

Hey guys. 

 

I want to run a test e course stacked with winstrol. 

 

Need to know how and what does I should take. 

 

I am experienced in usage just want to know what would be the best way to stack these two? 

 

Start with test and use winnie for last 4 weeks? 

What's the preferred duration of this stack? 

 

Tia

http://croslands.org.uk/

 

If you must this is a very valuable resource

 

 

 

[eezergood]

15 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Best to stay away from clinics that advertise and find a GP that has a good understanding of TRT and is not going to rip you off or give bad advice simply to increase their bottom line.  Many of those clinics are notorious for that.

 

When I started TRT I consulted with an endocrinologist, but when I moved to Thailand I found a great GP in Chiang Mai who had an excellent understanding of TRT and was just as good.

 

If you can't find one to your liking, I'd suggest even going to one of the big hospitals and talk to a GP there.  I had to consult with one here in Pattaya recently and the doctor was very knowledgeable and open minded about TRT.

Ive spoken to a few & i got the feeling that they where simply reciting textbooks & or thought I was looking to take steroids. 

[WaveHunter]

3 hours ago, eezergood said:

Ive spoken to a few & i got the feeling that they where simply reciting textbooks & or thought I was looking to take steroids. 

The trouble with many of those "clinics" is that they may have a genuine MD on staff for legal reasons, the person you meet with may not be a licensed physician at all, and the real MD may not even be on the premises, but exists in name only just so they are "legal.  Same is true in the USA.

 

You absolutely want to be dealing with a licensed MD when considering TRT.  Blood panels and the interpretation of them is quite important, not only before starting TRT but during the entire course of treatment.  Even though TRT is quiet safe and effective when administered properly, TRT effects many other hormonal factors besides your levels of testosterone, and if things get screwed up, irreversible and serious health consequences can result.  Treatment is not something you want to consider from anyone but a licensed physician experienced in hormonal therapy.

 

Finding an appropriate MD may not be easy and it might take a few attempts to find one, but they are out there.  The effort it takes to find one is well worth it if you value your long-term health.

 

Also, just to add, Most of those clinics charge outrageous prices.  Here in Thailand, Testosterone is quite inexpensive and doesn't even need an Rx to buy it.  Some of those clinics will markup the price of Test that they sell to you by as much as 150%.  They will arrange blood testing and also mark up those costs significantly, when you can just go to a private blood testing lab and have it done for a fraction of the price.  A good non-clinic doctor will not pull such shenanigans on you. 

[WaveHunter]

For anyone interested, a pharmacy in Jomtien also carries RotexMedica Testosterone.  However, their prices are fairly high at 3600 baht; Tim's is only 3300 baht.  If you want to know name of pharmacy, PM me since I'm not sure if it's against rules to post name here on ThaiVisa.  BTW, if a Moderator could comment on whether this is allowed, I'd appreciate knowing.   Thanks

[eezergood]

On 9/19/2019 at 12:32 PM, WaveHunter said:

The trouble with many of those "clinics" is that they may have a genuine MD on staff for legal reasons, the person you meet with may not be a licensed physician at all, and the real MD may not even be on the premises, but exists in name only just so they are "legal.  Same is true in the USA.

 

You absolutely want to be dealing with a licensed MD when considering TRT.  Blood panels and the interpretation of them is quite important, not only before starting TRT but during the entire course of treatment.  Even though TRT is quiet safe and effective when administered properly, TRT effects many other hormonal factors besides your levels of testosterone, and if things get screwed up, irreversible and serious health consequences can result.  Treatment is not something you want to consider from anyone but a licensed physician experienced in hormonal therapy.

 

Finding an appropriate MD may not be easy and it might take a few attempts to find one, but they are out there.  The effort it takes to find one is well worth it if you value your long-term health.

 

Also, just to add, Most of those clinics charge outrageous prices.  Here in Thailand, Testosterone is quite inexpensive and doesn't even need an Rx to buy it.  Some of those clinics will markup the price of Test that they sell to you by as much as 150%.  They will arrange blood testing and also mark up those costs significantly, when you can just go to a private blood testing lab and have it done for a fraction of the price.  A good non-clinic doctor will not pull such shenanigans on you. 

the issue is finding one........ 

[WaveHunter]

2 hours ago, eezergood said:

the issue is finding one........ 

When I first came to Thailand (Chiang Mai) I faced the prospect of finding a good doctor to continue overseeing my TRT.  I searched ThaiVisa for a good GP; not necessarily for TRT but just to have a good general practitioner for general health maintenance.  A number of positive reviews mentioned Nisachon Morgan,M.D., as being one of the best GP's and family doctors in Chiang Mai .  

 

I consulted with her, mainly for immunization needs and as a doctor to have annual check-ups with, but also discussed my TRT with her.  It turned out that she was quite knowledgeable about TRT, and quite willing to oversee my therapy.  Boom!  Good to go for my TRT needs as well. ????

 

There is no need to find a specialist.  TRT is not rocket science.  It's really all about knowing the right blood tests to perform and knowing how to interpret them.  If a doctor is knowledgeable, well read, and has a positive attitude about TRT, a GP can oversee your TRT just fine.

 

As I said before, an excellent place to find a good doctor for your TRT needs is your local hospital.  When I moved from Chiang Mai to Pattaya, I again sought a local MD through ThaiVIsa but wasn't as lucky to find a referral through ThaiVisa this time. 

 

I ended up just going to the Hospital, taking a ticket and waiting to see the next available doctor.  He turned out to be very open and knowledgeable about TRT, and a really nice man.  Problem solved, and it was very inexpensive.

 

Most people assume that TRT is a very hands-on type of therapy requiring frequent visits to the doctor.  In actuality it is not.  Initially your doctor will order blood tests, and then based on the results will prescribe a starting dosage, and educate you in self-injecting.  After a month, blood tests are re-run, and the doctor will adjust dosage.  Several titrations might be necessary to fine-tune dosage, and it might be necessary to add anit-aromatizing agents, but within a few visits to the doctor, you're pretty much good to go.  Then, you really only have to run blood tests every 3 months or so, which you can do through a private blood testing facility very inexpensively and have results forwarded to your doctor.   Pretty easy, inexpensive, safe, and effective.

 

I've been on TRT for over four years under this protocol and have never had any issues.  Just find yourself a good GP who is receptive to TRT and you will be good-to-go.

[GustavinBKK]

Where in Bangkok do you guys do for bloodwork? I have a doctor in the US that I'm working with already so I just need the tests done here. Not sure if it's possible without a script from a doctor though.