Testosterone, steroids, etc.

[WaveHunter]

On 4/6/2019 at 1:30 PM, WaveHunter said:

I'm just a big fan of TU mainly due its' long half-life.  Specifically, the serum testosterone levels are highly variable from one dose to another.  In other words, you get a serum level spike when you first ingest TU and then as you reach the half-life stage, you get a dip...valleys and peaks, a sawtooth pattern that many people using TU say is noticeable in how they feel.  With Test E or Test Cyp, serum levels stay VERY stable from one injection to the next.  TU may be more convenient, but provides too much variability in serum levels IMHO. 

Sorry.  I meant "I am NOT a big fan of TU"

[WaveHunter]

3 hours ago, TDCNINJA said:

No, not at all. Estradiol, hematocrit, and hemoglobin would rise and well as the peaks and valleys in a psychotic wave pattern.  I prefer a nice, stable sawtooth pattern.

 

This whole once a week or once every two weeks is 1940's medicine. It's time for you guys to enter the 21st century. 

 

As for nebido, you are taking your life in your hands every time you inject. 

Grossly overstating the lack of stability of Testosterone blood plasma levels resulting from once-a-week vs once-a-day delivery of Test-E or Test-Cyp.  70mg delivered once a week is NOT going to create a "psychotic" wave pattern AT ALL!  Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. 

 

We're talking about a 70mg TRT dose, not a "bodybuilder" dose of 500mg where it would make sense to split up the weekly dose!  Furthermore, we're talking about a drug with a 8-10 day half-life, not a half-life measured in hours where daily injections would be indicated.

 

With a relatively long half-life of 8-10 days, injected Test-E at TRT dosages will maintain an acceptably STABLE blood plasma levels with no significant spikes at time of injection, and since the half-life of Test-E is 8-10 days (which is actually slightly extended with sub-q injections of an oil based drug into fat layers), plasma levels of test will not fall significantly by the time of the next week's injection.

 

Since plasma concentrations of Estradiol, hematocrit, and hemoglobin are dependent on BLOOD PLASMA LEVELS of testosterone (not the quantity of injected testosterone), if plasma levels of Test remain stable,  estradiol, hematocrit, and hemoglobin concentrations will remain the same irregardless of whether or not you split TRT dosages of Test-E throughout the week or just inject the complete dose at one time.  Again, we're talking about only a 70mg weekly dosage of Test-E!

 

In all fairness, I should add that I DO split my dosage (125mg) into two weekly injections.  I do it mainly for cosmetic reason of avoiding lumps.  Anything beyond 2 weekly injections however makes no sense at all to me, and as I said before, it does in fact increase contamination risk and is wasteful since a bit of test gets lost in each syringe.

 

Regarding the comment about undecanoate (Nebido), I am not a fan of it but I don't know where you are getting your negative information about its' safety.  Every legitimate science-based study I've come across says Test-Undecanoate is "at least as safe as Test-Enanthate" 

 

BTW, just to be clear, I don't like the idea of TU (Nebido) because of its' extremely long half-life.  Spikes upon injection and the low plasma level at the end of the period can be a problem, not to mention the fact that  fine-tuning dosages can take months, not weeks as is the case with Test-E or Test-Cyp. 

 

 

[WaveHunter]

4 hours ago, TDCNINJA said:

This whole once a week or once every two weeks is 1940's medicine. It's time for you guys to enter the 21st century. 

Whether or not to split up weekly dosage and determining the frequency of injection has NOTHING to do with 1940's medicine or with entering the 21st century.  It has to do with the half-life of a particular drug primarily,  and secondarily, with the quantity of intended dosage, pure and simple.  That was the case in the 1940's and is the case today in the 21st century.

 

Of course, in purely theoretically terms, it stands to reason that any weekly drug dosage that is split up into daily doses is going to result in a more stable plasma level than if delivered weekly or twice-weekly.  HOWEVER, in "real world" terms, and specifically in the case of low TRT dosages, the difference will be empirically insignificant.  Who in their right mind is going to want to do daily injections when weekly or twice-weekly will provide essentially the same results?

 

Basing injection frequency on HALF-LIFE is the science-based (intelligent) way to decide...not to mention that out of every 100 TRT doctors, probably the majority will advocate twice-weekly or even weekly injection schedule for Test-E for the reason I previously described.  Very few will want their patients injecting on a daily basis; that's just crazy!

 

[TDCNINJA]

The intelligent way to decide is not based on numbers. It's based on how the patient feels. The entire medical industry is not patient-centered it's industry-centered. 

 

I've talked to hundreds of men who claim they feel better with more frequent injections. I've talked to hundreds of men who have complained about feeling out of whack a few days after taking large weekly doses. There are even guys who claim that they've had doctors give them monthly injections.

 

As for me, what matters the most is how a man feels. If he takes a shot once a week and he feels good then fine, leave it alone. But I've talked with too many guys who say they feel like shit with once a week injections or durations even longer than a week.

 

I've talked with men who are now able to control their estrogen, hemoglobin, and hematocrit by splitting up the same amount they were taking once weekly. 

 

You can talk half-life all day. The problem with your one-size fits all analogy is that every person's body chemistry is different.  

 

As a community, we need more flexibility not less. 

 

I say with that within the boundaries of safe practice, let how your body feels and reacts guide your protocol.

[ThaiBunny]

2 minutes ago, TDCNINJA said:

The intelligent way to decide is not based on numbers. It's based on how the patient feels. The entire medical industry is not patient-centered it's industry-centered. 

 

I've talked to hundreds of men who claim they feel better with more frequent injections. I've talked to hundreds of men who have complained about feeling out of whack a few days after taking large weekly doses. There are even guys who claim that they've had doctors give them monthly injections.

 

As for me, what matters the most is how a man feels. If he takes a shot once a week and he feels good then fine, leave it alone. But I've talked with too many guys who say they feel like shit with once a week injections or durations even longer than a week.

 

I've talked with men who are now able to control their estrogen, hemoglobin, and hematocrit by splitting up the same amount they were taking once weekly. 

 

You can talk half-life all day. The problem with your one-size fits all analogy is that every person's body chemistry is different.  

 

As a community, we need more flexibility not less. 

 

I say with that within the boundaries of safe practice, let how your body feels and reacts guide your protocol.

A very precise statement in favour of placebos

[Destiny1990]

I surprised nobody has developed skin problems such as acne.

I had some acne as a teenager.(sensitive Skin)

i sure once i doing TRT soon as my face gets oily pimples will reappear everywhere in my face even if i only inject 60 mg a week.

I sometime take a innocent supplement olive leaf extract from life extension but soon as i take it for 3 days one capsule a day pimples start to pop up and then i have to wait some days before taking another innocent capsule.

my fears are acne, red face, shrunken testicles, loosing my hairs than i wonder how would i ever feeling great with all these side effects that i 100% confident will all happen to me.

Yes the T boost will be great but if i look in the mirror how can i feel good? I like the product without the negative side effects so when can i buy that? Anything new in the pipeline?

[Ks45672]

2 minutes ago, hyku1147 said:

150 -200 mg of testE twice a week combined with 0.25 mg of Anastrozole works for me.

IMO, the Anastrozole lowers E2, thrn the pituitary gland - sensing low E2 - sends luteinizing hormone to the testes. They proceed to produce testosterone. Thus they do not shrink.

Anything in the 400-500 a week  gives me the a good kick and no side effects and only inject it 2x 

 

If I was travelling for a week or something where I didn't want to carry a vial and syringe I'd take double and wouldn't make any noticeable difference 

 

Injections every day seem like overkill to me because it's designed to be 8-10 day half life and even longer than that if you use sustanon or test compound like I do

[Destiny1990]

14 minutes ago, hyku1147 said:

150 -200 mg of testE twice a week combined with 0.25 mg, every 2nd day, of Anastrozole works for me.

IMO, the Anastrozole lowers E2, then the pituitary gland - sensing low E2 - sends luteinizing hormone to the testes. They proceed to produce testosterone. Thus they do not shrink.

What do the doctors recommend for your acne?

I have not acne now since i not yet do TRT. These side effects will happen surely for me soon as i start trt.

btw my estrogen already low same as my trt so i dont need any anastrozole.

i am hopeiing for a revolutionary new product 10 x better then Testosterone i wondering when new better less side effect products become available to boost t..

get energy musclus libido etc

[mokwit]

1 hour ago, Destiny1990 said:

i am hopeiing for a revolutionary new product 10 x better then Testosterone i wondering when new better less side effect products become available to boost t..

get energy musclus libido etc

You could be waiting long time. SARMS are likely a few years off in therms of FDA approval and while oral, have the same effects/side effects because they are activating the same receptor.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_androgen_receptor_modulator

[Destiny1990]

22 minutes ago, mokwit said:

You could be waiting long time. SARMS are likely a few years off in therms of FDA approval and while oral, have the same effects/side effects because they are activating the same receptor.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_androgen_receptor_modulator

That SARMS seems like a smarter substance  already.

its really  time for new and better trt options.

[mokwit]

5 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

That SARMS seems like a smarter substance  already.

its really  time for new and better trt options.

You can buy them now as 'research chemicals' -  only thing is no one knows what the long term effects from usage are.

[Destiny1990]

12 minutes ago, mokwit said:

You can buy them now as 'research chemicals' -  only thing is no one knows what the long term effects from usage are.

Well neither we know that exactly from Testosterone injections. Example for decades governments told us one glass of alcohol a day is good for ur health but now all of sudden they say even just one glass of wine a day is bad for ur health..????

[WaveHunter]

7 hours ago, TDCNINJA said:

The intelligent way to decide is not based on numbers. It's based on how the patient feels. The entire medical industry is not patient-centered it's industry-centered. 

 

I've talked to hundreds of men who claim they feel better with more frequent injections. I've talked to hundreds of men who have complained about feeling out of whack a few days after taking large weekly doses. There are even guys who claim that they've had doctors give them monthly injections.

 

As for me, what matters the most is how a man feels. If he takes a shot once a week and he feels good then fine, leave it alone. But I've talked with too many guys who say they feel like shit with once a week injections or durations even longer than a week.

 

I've talked with men who are now able to control their estrogen, hemoglobin, and hematocrit by splitting up the same amount they were taking once weekly. 

 

You can talk half-life all day. The problem with your one-size fits all analogy is that every person's body chemistry is different.  

 

As a community, we need more flexibility not less. 

 

I say with that within the boundaries of safe practice, let how your body feels and reacts guide your protocol.

I have to agree with you when you say it's all about how each individual feels. That is especially true with TRT since the effects of TRT are VERY subjective.  So, you'll get no argument from me on that.

 

If daily injections is right for you, then all the power to you. All I am saying is that a person should start dosing "by the book".  A doctor will use half-life to decide whether or not to split a weekly dosage.  The whole idea is to maintain a stable plasma level.  That can be accomplished with one, or at most two injections per week.  With a half-life of 8-10 days, it just makes no sense to do daily dosing.  So that should be a STARTING POINT.

 

That said, if an individual notices he feels like crap towards the end of the week on one injection, then yeah, go to two injections, but I just can't imagine anyone feeling like crap on two injections and then having the issue miraculously disappear by going to daily injections; it just makes no sense!

 

I know of no doctors who advocate daily injections and I know of no one doing TRT that does daily injections, but if you really feel that is right for you...well, no harm, no foul.  I just don't think you should be strongly advocating this to others, or contesting the science-based information I am providing by referring to it as 1940's medicine.  That's just plain nonsense.

 

The real bottom line is that none of us should be advising others on dosages or frequency of injections; that's a doctor's job, not ours.  It's fair to voice a personal opinion, but not right say or infer something as though it is science-based fact...unless it actually is.

[WaveHunter]

6 hours ago, hyku1147 said:

...150 -200 mg of testE twice a week combined with 0.25 mg, every 2nd day, of Anastrozole works for me.

IMO, the Anastrozole lowers E2, then the pituitary gland - sensing low E2 - sends luteinizing hormone to the testes. They proceed to produce testosterone. Thus they do not shrink. ...

Huh???  Wanna run that by us in a little more detail?  You are claiming that Anastrozole keeps you from being shut down by Test-E?  That makes no sense to me at all.  Yes, it lowers Estradiol, but keeps you from shutting down...I don't think so.  HCG will prevent shrinkage, anastrozole will not.

[TDCNINJA]

I think it's an exciting field of medicine. They are learning new things every day. 

[mokwit]

7 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Huh???  Wanna run that by us in a little more detail?  You are claiming that Anastrozole keeps you from being shut down by Test-E?  That makes no sense to me at all.  Yes, it lowers Estradiol, but keeps you from shutting down...I don't think so.  HCG will prevent shrinkage, anastrozole will not.

I have seen research indicating that Anastrazole (and clomiphene) can prevent shut down with T supplementation at no more than  physiological doses. Note that (from memory) they were using doses of Anastrozole that would crush E i.e 1mg/day, 0.5mg EoD. Logically it could as the E mediated suppression of T seems to kick in lower and be most sensitive - if the T dose was not high enough that T or DHT mediated suppression/shut down was activated then you could be in a sweet spot i.e there is a window. Bodybuilders who take supraphysiological doses of T affirm that taking Clomiphene does not prevent shut down.

 

Here is the paper for Clomiphene - key point the were infusing 7.5mg T per day, not 125mg once/twice per week - it is the spike over normal levels that seemingly creates high E conversion. It is known that normal physiological levels of E do not shut down T.

 

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/48/2/222/2679057?redirectedFrom=fulltext

 

Secondly my use of clomiphene seemed to prevent suppression by DHT derivative Proviron at high doses where suppression of T as much as 40% might be expected. It seems the blocckade of pituitary E receptors overrides any suppression by proviron at Hypothalamus T or DHT receptors.

[mokwit]

33 minutes ago, mokwit said:

125mg once/twice per week

Should read 125mg once/split into twice per week

[WaveHunter]

3 hours ago, mokwit said:

Should read 125mg once/split into twice per week

Same for me.  Four doses per ampule.

[WaveHunter]

12 hours ago, hyku1147 said:

I should have wrote - 150 -200 mg of testE divided into 2 doses that are taken twice a week.   Thanks for the heads up.

When the pituitary gland detects low estrogen, it sends  " luteinizing hormone to the testes." The testes release testosterone, of which a significant percentage is converted to estrogen by the aromatase enzyme; however, Anastrozole is an anti-aromatase, thus the pituitary detects low estrogen, and it keeps releasing  luteinizing hormone.

 

HPG Axis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal_axis

 

."

Sorry, but I don't really think it's that simple.  The use of anastrazole would only account for one part of the negative feedback loop (estradiol).  You are ignoring the other part of the equation.  Let me explain, but also preface it by saying I am certainly not an expert.  The best place to get advice is YOUR DOCTOR.  That said, here is what I know to be science-based FACT:

 

The HPG axis is the driving force for the production of testosterone (T), and is regulated via a negative feedback loop with BOTH testosterone and estradiol (E2) acting as the mediators of that feedback control. I REPEAT...BOTH.

 

Both T and E2 have an inhibitory effect at the hypothalamus and pituitary level. As T and E2 levels increase, there is a decrease in the release of GnRH, followed by a decrease in the release of LH and FSH and less drive through the system to stimulate T production from the Leydig cells. TRT obviously introduces increased levels of T into the system and the brain (the hypothalamus and pituitary in particular) sees this increase in T and shuts down the drive to produce T from the Leydig cells in the testes.

 

In other words, the brain is looking at the T/E ratio, not just E2 level.

 

Exogenous Testosterone will inevitably result in shutdown of natural T production at the level of the Leydig cells, and result in the plummeting of intratesticular testosterone (ITT) levels.  IMPORTANT POINT:  Normally, ITT levels are 50-100x higher than serum T levels and these high ITT levels are required for normal sperm production. As ITT levels drop, a man’s sperm count decreases rapidly, irregardless of what the E2 levels are.

 

Simply put,  Effective strategies to mitigate this negative effect of TRT on the HPG axis work by attempting to maintain crucially high ITT levels, not merely suppress estrogen.

 

The standard protocol to preserve ITT, and thus normal sperm production (or for those with simply cosmetic concerns...i.e.: big balls) while using TRT is hCG (human chorionic gonadotropin), which literally replaces the Luteinizing Hormone (LH) that is normally produced by the pituitary.

 

hCG is a near perfect mimic of LH, and by injecting it subcutaneously (i.e. into the skin), you can counteract the reduced LH secretion from the pituitary that occurs in response to TRT.  The hCG will directly stimulate the Leydig cells to continue testosterone production, thus maintaining high ITT levels and driving sperm production.  An AI such as Anastrozole has no capacity to do this, so using it alone will not fix the problem.  It can, however help some men when used in addition to hCG (see below).

 

In many men (up to 70%), this is all that is required to maintain spermatogenesis. In others, however, hCG alone is not sufficient to recover or maintain normal spermatogenesis. In these men, Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH) and hCG are both needed to optimize the environment in the testis for quality sperm production.  This need for FSH can be met via SERMs (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators).  THIS is where inhibiting the Estradiol feedback loop comes into play.

 

The more commonly used SERMs are Clomid and Tamoxifen. They act by inhibiting E2 feedback in both the hypothalamus and pituitary. Thus, their effect is to drive the release of GnRH from the hypothalamus and subsequently the release of BOTH LH and FSH from the pituitary. Therefore, the added benefit of SERMs over using HCG alone is that you also get the release of FSH. This will help men who need both LH and FSH to drive optimal sperm production.

 

Here is where Aromatase Inhibitors such as Anastrozole come into the picture.  AI's will prevent the conversion of testosterone into estradiol within the peripheral tissues. This reduction in E2 will lead to less negative feedback inhibition of the HPG axis, and help to drive the production of both LH and FSH from the pituitary.  Again though, AI's alone will not correct the negative feedback inhibition with regard to testosterone and therefore do nothing to maintain high levels of ITT.

 

To my knowledge, only hCG has been clinically proven to restore fertility in men when used concomitantly in men undergoing TRT (see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4378070/)

 

A typical dosage protocol would be something like this:  Intermittently (2-5 days in a row) or regularly (i.e. daily) at a dosage of 100-500 IU per injection (one injection per day) by injecting subcutaneously into the fat tissue of your lower stomach, or the fat pad of your outer glute with an insulin syringe.

 

The timing of injections usually recommended goes something like this:  Inject hCG the last two days leading up to a once-a-week testosterone injection. OR if you are injecting testosterone twice a week, inject hCG on the day before each testosterone injection.

 

Of course there are no hard & fast rules with all of this.  Results are very subjective and will vary from one individual to the next.  The best place for advice on incorporating this into your TRT is YOUR DOCTOR.

 

 

[WaveHunter]

9 hours ago, hyku1147 said:

 

Does this apply to low dose TRT?

Can you provide citations?

 

Yes, specifically for TRT dosages (75-150mg/week is the typical dosage range).  The information I provided is pretty mainstream and absolutely science-based.  The use of hCG is widely discussed on many TRT forums.  Best source of information of course would be a good TRT doctor. 

 

If you prefer to research on your own, I included one citation (see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4378070/), but if you Google the term "hCG", and look for science based sources like PubMD or ncbi.nlm.nih.gov, I'm sure you'll find plenty of citations.

 

Simply put, my understanding is that Anastrozole can enhance the strategy of using hCG but it is not a substitute for it.  In connection to TRT, only hCG is capable of replacing the Luteinizing Hormone because it almost perfectly mimics it.  Anastrozole by itself cannot do this.

 

So, just to recap, effective strategies to mitigate the negative effect of TRT on the HPG axis can include:

1. hCG (which is all that is necessary for 70% of men concerned about this issue). 
2. For those who need to correct FSH, a SERM such as Clomid and Tamoxifen may need to be added. 
3. Finally, an AI like Anastrozole can also be used to enhance 1 & 2, and will probably be used anyway to balance out altered T/E2 ratio caused by TRT (i.e.: too much conversion of T to Estradiol). 

[DaRoadrunner]

I can probably outrun everyone on this forum and have never taken any of this stuff. I have other uses for my nuts.

[ncc1701d]

10 hours ago, DaRoadrunner said:

I can probably outrun everyone on this forum and have never taken any of this stuff. I have other uses for my nuts.

Whilst amusing, I doubt that is the goal of anyone here.

[mokwit]

10 hours ago, DaRoadrunner said:

I can probably outrun everyone on this forum and have never taken any of this stuff. I have other uses for my nuts.

How old are you? If you are younger than 48 so what? It was the same for us. If you are over 50 please write a book.

[NightSky]

10 hours ago, DaRoadrunner said:

I can probably outrun everyone on this forum and have never taken any of this stuff. I have other uses for my nuts.

 

Doctors administer trt for medical reasons not for assisting to outrun imbeciles.

[NightSky]

10 minutes ago, mokwit said:

How old are you? If you are younger than 48 so what? It was the same for us. If you are over 50 please write a book.

I’m  also a member of a forum of people much younger than me in their early 20’s and 30’s who’ve had cancer or injury and unable to produce enough t naturally.

 

As you know trt is not just for age related issues or for sports supplementation for that matter as daroadrunner seems to think.

 

the real use of trt is for medical reasons which is why I’m following this thread.

[mokwit]

12 minutes ago, NightSky said:

I’m  also a member of a forum of people much younger than me in their early 20’s and 30’s who’ve had cancer or injury and unable to produce enough t naturally.

 

As you know trt is not just for age related issues or for sports supplementation for that matter as daroadrunner seems to think.

 

the real use of trt is for medical reasons which is why I’m following this thread.

Absolutely it is indicated in younger men who are producing insufficient T of their own, but on this board I suspect most tend to be taking it for age related hypogonadism/symptons thereof, hence my comment including ages.

 

As far as I am concerned it is not up to the medical profession to make the actual decision on whether or not I am "entitled" to use androgens, that is a decision I make for myself, although we would be well advised to seek the counsel of the medically qualified. Example, in Australia you could be a young man with T just above the hard cutoff of 300 with symptons of hypogonadism and being young quite likely to have these symptons alleviated by T, but the medical profession can't/won't prescribe T for you because over 300. Medical prescription of TRT cuts both ways.

[WaveHunter]

On 4/9/2019 at 6:26 AM, mokwit said:

I have seen research indicating that Anastrazole (and clomiphene) can prevent shut down with T supplementation at no more than  physiological doses. Note that (from memory) they were using doses of Anastrozole that would crush E i.e 1mg/day, 0.5mg EoD. Logically it could as the E mediated suppression of T seems to kick in lower and be most sensitive - if the T dose was not high enough that T or DHT mediated suppression/shut down was activated then you could be in a sweet spot i.e there is a window. Bodybuilders who take supraphysiological doses of T affirm that taking Clomiphene does not prevent shut down.

 

Here is the paper for Clomiphene - key point the were infusing 7.5mg T per day, not 125mg once/twice per week - it is the spike over normal levels that seemingly creates high E conversion. It is known that normal physiological levels of E do not shut down T.

 

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/48/2/222/2679057?redirectedFrom=fulltext

 

Secondly my use of clomiphene seemed to prevent suppression by DHT derivative Proviron at high doses where suppression of T as much as 40% might be expected. It seems the blocckade of pituitary E receptors overrides any suppression by proviron at Hypothalamus T or DHT receptors.

I’m not sure if it was your intention but you just made the best argument possible against (mis)using Anastrozole to mitigate negative effects of TRT on HPG axis...1mg/day, 0.5mg EoD!

 

If one is truly concerned about this problem (for most it is simply a cosmetic concern not a health-related concern), the standard protocol is hCG (and possibly a SERM if FSH is involved, though for most it is not).  Simple...case clased.

 

Also, not trying to sound like a broken record, but this whole notion of splitting a weekly TRT dosage into daily injections is just plain nonsense with regard to it preventing serum level spikes upon injection or serum level deficiencies (valleys) by the end of the week for two simple reasons:

 

Firstly, conversion to estradiol is a reaction to SERUM levels of testosterone, not injected amounts.  If injected sub-Q, it is injected into fat layer which acts as a buffer, releasing exogenous  testosterone into blood stream at a relatively steady rate.  At a typical TRT dosage, any appreciable spiking of serum levels is going to be negligible whether it is delivered once a week or split up into daily injections.  There might be a case for some people to split into two injection, but seven injections is just overkill

 

Secondly, with the long half-life of the drug, there will be no “valleys” or significantly low serum levels by the end of the week if doing only one injection weekly.  

 

Half-life is an important concept to understand.  Doctors rely on it when prescribing for a reason!  Understand the concept instead of making such unfounded assumption!

 

I mean, c’mon!  All this talk about daily injections is nonsense.  We’re talking about TRT DOSAGES of 100-150mg per week, not bodybuilder dosages of 500 to over 1,000mg per week!

 

The only DISCERNABLE difference is that daily injection is WAY MORE inconvenient and more wasteful of the drug since each injection will waste about 10% of the drug that stays in the syringe.  Multiply that x 7 days vs 2 days and that’s a lot of wasted drug.

 

Please, anyone, show me a reputable and truly science-based study that supports daily TRT injections vs twice-a-week!  Provide a direct link to the study, not a third-party interpretation if it.

 

Bottom line; each to his own.  If it makes some of you feel better injecting every day, go for it.  My comments are really intended for people on the fence about TRT and wondering about this.  Best advice is to consider science based FACTS, not anecdotal conjecture.  

 

Better still, rely on the advice of a good TRT doctor you feel confident in, not uncredentialed members of this forum (and I include myself in this category of course ???? )

[mokwit]

I think you have misunderstood why I was posting what I did - not to make some point about the suitability of Anastrozole for controlling estrogenic effects or the suitability of daily injections, but to make the point that if doses/circulating T*  were low enough not to activate the 'failover' suppression/shutdown mediated by T or DHT then suppression/shut down could be prevented by manipulation of E either by using an E receptor antagonist such as Clomiphene which effectively prevents the body from "seeing" the true E level, or by a dose of Anastrozole high enough to reduce E levels to the point where the body no longer "sees" the E because it is hardly there. Both Clomiphene and Anastrozole produce a near identical pattern of increasing T with anastrozole slightly less effective - probably because it leaves a residual 10-20% of the E.

 

The reason the researchers were infusing daily was because THIS WAS AN EXPERIMENT and they were seeking to replicate the body's own pattern of T production as best they could i.e 7.5mg over the course of the day - whether or not they sought to replicate the early morning spike seen in young men is not stated.

 

* true the body responds to serum levels of T/metabolites but with exogenous T those levels are a function of injected amounts/method of injection...........................

 

One cautions re Anastrozole being used to reduce suppression/boost T - one Dr (Crisler) makes the point that if you are using enough for it to be effective in this you are probably also using enough to possibly affect bone mineral density. This is not the same as using it to keep E in normal ranges.

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, mokwit said:

Absolutely it is indicated in younger men who are producing insufficient T of their own, but on this board I suspect most tend to be taking it for age related hypogonadism/symptons thereof, hence my comment including ages.

 

As far as I am concerned it is not up to the medical profession to make the actual decision on whether or not I am "entitled" to use androgens, that is a decision I make for myself, although we would be well advised to seek the counsel of the medically qualified. Example, in Australia you could be a young man with T just above the hard cutoff of 300 with symptons of hypogonadism and being young quite likely to have these symptons alleviated by T, but the medical profession can't/won't prescribe T for you because over 300. Medical prescription of TRT cuts both ways.

It’s recommended for EVERY MAN ALIVE TODAY IN ONE REGARD.  The average level of serum testosterone in a man today is a fraction of what it was a hundred years ago!  That’s a statistical fact!  It’s largely a reaction to our changing (easier) lifestyles.

 

Of  course there the question of whether it’s better to make life “less easy” (exercise more, eat less junk”) to raise testosterone naturally, OR raise testosterone through TRT so that you can restore the ability to have a more robust and healthy lifestyle.  I would argue for the latter.

 

i totally agree that nobody should have the power to say who can or can’t undergo TRT.  Firstly, the range of “normal” values that doctors use are skewed since they are derived from a population cross-section that includes men with very low (deficient by any standard) levels of T.  Secondly, a hundred years ago, the average T was 700; today it is under 500.  So, these “average” tables are meaningless.  The question is what levels are optimal; that should be the target.

[WaveHunter]

55 minutes ago, mokwit said:

I think you have misunderstood why I was posting what I did - not to make some point about the suitability of Anastrozole for controlling estrogenic effects or the suitability of daily injections, but to make the point that if doses/circulating T*  were low enough not to activate the 'failover' suppression/shutdown mediated by T or DHT then suppression/shut down could be prevented by manipulation of E either by using an E receptor antagonist such as Clomiphene which effectively prevents the body from "seeing" the true E level, or by a dose of Anastrozole high enough to reduce E levels to the point where the body no longer "sees" the E because it is hardly there. Both Clomiphene and Anastrozole produce a near identical pattern of increasing T with anastrozole slightly less effective - probably because it leaves a residual 10-20% of the E.

 

The reason the researchers were infusing daily was because THIS WAS AN EXPERIMENT and they were seeking to replicate the body's own pattern of T production as best they could i.e 7.5mg over the course of the day - whether or not they sought to replicate the early morning spike seen in young men is not stated.

 

* true the body responds to serum levels of T/metabolites but with exogenous T those levels are a function of injected amounts/method of injection...........................

Well, the study you cited is very old (1979) and I can’t even see the discussion or conclusion of the study, but it seems to be a theoretical study specifically of what role clomiphene may play, not that it will restore LH.  I’d love to see the whole study though if you could send me a link to the full PDF ????

 

Clomiphene’s primary effect is on FSH, not LH.  In TRT, the only thing that will restore LH is hGC.  SERMS and AI’s may help some men in which FSH must be addressed but it’s effects are not going to fully restore LH, nor will Anastrozole.  Only hGC can do that.

 

Regarding daily vs weekly or twice-a-week injections.  You bring up a good point.  Yes, daily injections will more properly mimic the body’s natural delivery and that would be important in a theoretical study...but the question remains, is such frequent delivery actually necessary in real-world TRT?  Does it improve efficacy or minimize side-effects in TRT?  

 

I have yet to see any reputable science-based proof that supports daily injections over weekly or twice-a-week when it comes to REAL-WORLD TRT for the reasons I outlined earlier today.  

 

Furthermore, most doctors I’ve spoken with and the vast majority of people undergoing TRT I know, opt for weekly or twice-a-week injections, not daily injections.

 

You have to consider that there sometimes can be a BIG difference between theoretical lab science and real-world therapy, when it comes to efficacy and safety, and convenience. That’s why good TRT doctors exist...to bridge the gap.