Boat caught in Europe's migration spat brings hundreds to Spain

[The Renegade]

20 minutes ago, simple1 said:

IMO Off Topic to link to far right oppressive legislation in Hungary, 

???

 

OK, how about some of Italy's Roma ? Who support the far right Italians.

 

Quote

We heard Salvini’s word and we congratulate him,” says Stefano, whose family came to Italy from Bosnia more than 50 years ago.

 

“There are so many delinquents within the Roma community – in this camp and across all of Italy. This camp used to be a lot better now it’s filthy – and there are bad people here. Salvini only wants to bring tranquillity to Italy, and I agree with him.”

 

Stefano has nine children, all of whom voted for Salvini’s far-right League party in general elections in early March, and 60 grandchildren.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/21/roma-census-italy-hunt-illegal-immigrants

 

Are they also wrong ?

 

Might it be YOU that is wrong ?

[Morch]

On 6/20/2018 at 5:53 AM, simple1 said:

Given the unstable government, numerous reports of severe abuse of asylum seekers and those using smugglers I seriously out of Libya I doubt those operating the rescue vessel (primarily MSF) would consider Libya 'safe'. In addition I would question whether the factions controlling the ports of departures would agree to off loading those on board.

 

On 6/20/2018 at 11:22 AM, simple1 said:

Never claimed people would be immediately returned to country of origin. There are well known challenges with returning rejected asylum seekers to their originating countries. Receiving governments worldwide are working on government to government agreements and other means to expedite the processes of deportation or stopping departures in the first place such as the EU agreement with Turkey. In the meantime facile commentary achieves nothing.

 

 

 

This comes back on almost each and every related topic. In effect, deporting those denied asylum or refugee status meets with great obstacles. Saying that governments are working on it is not much of answer, as it doesn't reference the likelihood of things actually getting sorted, even on the diplomatic level. Under prevailing political atmosphere and circumstances, doubt there's much room for optimism on this front.

 

 

[simple1]

34 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

???

 

OK, how about some of Italy's Roma ? Who support the far right Italians.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/21/roma-census-italy-hunt-illegal-immigrants

 

Are they also wrong ?

 

Might it be YOU that is wrong ?

Again Off Topic. However try comprehending the entire article, rather than cherry picking

[Morch]

22 hours ago, zydeco said:

So you reject the popular will, which is also known as democracy. And you accuse others of being authoritarian? Your argument is typical open borders through the looking glass thinking.

 

Considering the number of times Merkel (and others) are presented as "dictatorial" or some-such, despite being elected  (yes, coalitions are part of the democratic process) - that's quite an amusing comment.

[Morch]

22 hours ago, simple1 said:

No, I do not concur with Open Borders for asylum seekers / migrants, but reject the all encompassing vilification by many members of this forum.

 

Electing authoritarian Nationalist Populist leaders will lead to conflict,  oppression and the removal of democratic institutions.

 

Yes, but the appeal of "authoritarian Nationalist Populist leaders" didn't come out of nowhere. In part, at least, it gains traction from failures to properly address such issues as the OP is about. Doubt the sentiment and support will change while them issues remain as they are.

[simple1]

Just now, Morch said:

 

 

This comes back on almost each and every related topic. In effect, deporting those denied asylum or refugee status meets with great obstacles. Saying that governments are working on it is not much of answer, as it doesn't reference the likelihood of things actually getting sorted, even on the diplomatic level. Under prevailing political atmosphere and circumstances, doubt there's much room for optimism on this front.

 

 

You may be correct in forecasting the future, you may not. Within the EU there is progression with putting in place government to government agreements to facilitate forcible deportations; the volume of deportations is ramping up. Recently there was an article covering an EU initiative to establish Asylum Seeker assessment centers offshore, no doubt very challenging to achieve and expensive, but heading in the right direction.

 

 

[The Renegade]

21 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Again Off Topic. However try comprehending the entire article, rather than cherry picking

As the boat in question in the OP was initially refused entry to Italy

 

58 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

OK, how about some of Italy's Roma ? Who support the far right Italians.

 

Quote

We heard Salvini’s word and we congratulate him,” says Stefano, whose family came to Italy from Bosnia more than 50 years ago.

 

“There are so many delinquents within the Roma community – in this camp and across all of Italy. This camp used to be a lot better now it’s filthy – and there are bad people here. Salvini only wants to bring tranquillity to Italy, and I agree with him.”

 

Stefano has nine children, all of whom voted for Salvini’s far-right League party in general elections in early March, and 60 grandchildren.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/21/roma-census-italy-hunt-illegal-immigrants

My comment and reference to the Roma in Italy is very much ON TOPIC.

[dick dasterdly]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

 

This comes back on almost each and every related topic. In effect, deporting those denied asylum or refugee status meets with great obstacles. Saying that governments are working on it is not much of answer, as it doesn't reference the likelihood of things actually getting sorted, even on the diplomatic level. Under prevailing political atmosphere and circumstances, doubt there's much room for optimism on this front.

 

 

I agree insofar as (a few) eu country govts. are fearful of the way the electorate have seen through the 'refugee'  tag applied to the boat-loads of people being brought to their countries - and are finally admitting that the vast majority of 'refugees' are actually economic migrants....

 

There AREN'T 'great obstacles' to either refusing to allow those economic migrants to enter a country - or deporting them back to their country of origin IMO.

[mokwit]

3 hours ago, simple1 said:

I am referencing the individual and a number of others who support right wing political extremism and vilification of entire ethno religious groups. Are you not in a "safe space', no need to answer.

Perhaps you could define extreme right wing for the benefit of the TV community - you are using this expression a lot on multiple threads - what exactly do you mean by this? You have accuse me of spreading "extreme right wing propaganda". One could be forgiven for thinking you mean anybody who does not share your views or posts things that question your narrative/the narrative of those whose narrative you are buying into.
 

[simple1]

2 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

As the boat in question in the OP was initially refused entry to Italy

 

My comment and reference to the Roma in Italy is very much ON TOPIC.

On reflection you may be correct.

 

Far right ideology in Italy doubling down, the pathway to oppression...

 

the president of Italy’s union of Jewish communities, who said the proposal recalled the fascist race laws of the late 1920s and 1930s. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/19/italy-coalition-rift-roma-register-matteo-salvini

[simple1]

8 minutes ago, mokwit said:

Perhaps you could define extreme right wing for the benefit of the TV community - you are using this expression a lot on multiple threads - what exactly do you mean by this? You have accuse me of spreading "extreme right wing propaganda". One could be forgiven for thinking you mean anybody who does not share your views or posts things that question your narrative/the narrative of those whose narrative you are buying into.
 

Fair enough...

 

Far-right politics are politics further on the right of the left-right spectrum than the standard political right, particularly in terms of more extreme nationalist,^[1][2] and nativist ideologies, as well as authoritarian tendencies.^[3]

The term is often associated with Nazism,^[4] neo-Nazism, fascism, neo-fascism and other ideologies or organizations that feature extreme nationalist, chauvinist, xenophobic, racist or reactionary views.^[5] These can lead to oppression and violence against groups of people based on their supposed inferiority, or their perceived threat to the native ethnic group,^[6][7] nation, state^[8] or ultraconservative traditional social institutions.^[9]

 

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics}

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree insofar as (a few) eu country govts. are fearful of the way the electorate have seen through the 'refugee'  tag applied to the boat-loads of people being brought to their countries - and are finally admitting that the vast majority of 'refugees' are actually economic migrants....

 

There AREN'T 'great obstacles' to either refusing to allow those economic migrants to enter a country - or deporting them back to their country of origin IMO.

 

You're entitled to your interpretation regarding motivations, though I doubt you could substantiate them in any meaningful way. I don't think there was much by way of "finally admitting" as you claim, but seems facts aren't apparently much of "thing" in these "discussions".

 

The same goes for your "informed" and "well reasoned" view about there not being such "great obstacles". That you wish to disregard (or rather, wish governments to disregard) existing treaties and laws, without a coherent suggestion as to how things will work, doesn't make much of an argument.

[FreddieRoyle]

Spanish students relocated to make room for Aquarius migrants

 

http://www.euronews.com/2018/06/20/spanish-students-relocated-to-make-room-for-aquarius-migrants

[dick dasterdly]

19 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree insofar as (a few) eu country govts. are fearful of the way the electorate have seen through the 'refugee'  tag applied to the boat-loads of people being brought to their countries - and are finally admitting that the vast majority of 'refugees' are actually economic migrants....

 

There AREN'T 'great obstacles' to either refusing to allow those economic migrants to enter a country - or deporting them back to their country of origin IMO.

 

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You're entitled to your interpretation regarding motivations, though I doubt you could substantiate them in any meaningful way. I don't think there was much by way of "finally admitting" as you claim, but seems facts aren't apparently much of "thing" in these "discussions".

 

The same goes for your "informed" and "well reasoned" view about there not being such "great obstacles". That you wish to disregard (or rather, wish governments to disregard) existing treaties and laws, without a coherent suggestion as to how things will work, doesn't make much of an argument.

So you're finally reduced to arguing about anything other than whether the majority of 'refugees' are actually economic migrants?

 

Please give up on your idea of 'intelligent response' by highlighting parts of a post and then ignoring the points made - preferring to concentrate on the (already admitted) opinions - and not arguing against them, just making ever more irrelevant opinions about those comments! ?

[DILLIGAD]

I see today, that the latest ‘title’ being used for ‘those people’ is ‘Refugee Tourists’. It’s got a certain ring to it, I believe and suggests an element of non-danger & choices.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mokwit]

8 minutes ago, FreddieRoyle said:

Spanish students relocated to make room for Aquarius migrants

 

http://www.euronews.com/2018/06/20/spanish-students-relocated-to-make-room-for-aquarius-migrants

It's Ok when you do it to your own people - now imagine if it had bee

 

Just now, DILLIGAD said:

I see today, that the latest ‘title’ being used for ‘those people’ is ‘Refugee Tourists’. It’s got a certain ring to it, I believe and suggests an element of non-danger & choices.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The more cynical might suggest 'benefits tourist' as being more accurate.

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, DILLIGAD said:

I see today, that the latest ‘title’ being used for ‘those people’ is ‘Refugee Tourists’. It’s got a certain ring to it, I believe and suggests an element of non-danger & choices.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Except the majority are not refugees - they are economic migrants!

 

'Economic migrant tourists' would be far more apt.

Edited June 21, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[mokwit]

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/06/18/is-merkel-end-right-around-corner.html

 

Immigration is a Core Value

Immigration is not simply a political asset to be horse-traded by leaders in the legislature. Someone should teach Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer this before the Democratic Party goes the way of the dodo.

It cuts too deeply into people’s personal identity and their sense of community and culture. Like it or not, people tend to seek out people like them.

We are hard-wired for this. And the cultural Marxists pushing for George Soros’ vision of the Open Society are bumping up against one of the most basic of human biases and survival instincts. Demonizing and dehumanizing people for political gain is not a path of societal cohesion but rather violence and civil war.

Cultural change comes slowly if at all, depending on the will of the people. Defending the culture is one of the most basic reasons people put up with government ineptitude in the first place.

Betraying that trust is what destroys governments and the powers pushing quislings like Merkel to continue that betrayal regardless of public sentiment are pushing this situation to a crisis point all across the West.

The leadership in Europe and the U.S. have built legal constructs to subvert that mandate while monopolizing the media to convince people this is the right path for their future.

Those who stand up for the shared values that make a country a country, no matter how culturally diverse internally, have seen huge electoral victories, while those that cling to the Utopian fantasy of the new Soviet man edicts of the finger-wagging elites and Progressives continue to lose not only power but legitimacy.

 

Short version: Liberals are the problem.

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by mokwit

[mokwit]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Except the majority are not refugees - they are economic migrants!

 

'Economic migrant tourists' would be far more apt.

I think 'tourist' could more accurately be replaced by 'settler' - they are not planning on going home. So: 'Economic migrant settlers'

[Opl]

39 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Except the majority are not refugees - they are economic migrants!

 

'Economic migrant tourists' would be far more apt.

 

Of course… smugglers as well as illegal economic migrants are well aware and informed… we do not take them for idiots, migration is a rational choice to escape the lousy living conditions in their own countries of origin ... So they behave rationally ...choose the country most attractive / adapted to their project,  in regards to their chances of success.

African migrants are going to the best bidder in Europe, where they speak and understand the language, where they have family members, where social care is given, where public opinion is tolerant, and where travel is possible… and exclude  Poland, Hungary etc...  

 

But we do  welcome and help integrate true refugees, who do not choose one host country over another.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Opl

[ivor bigun]

I think 'tourist' could more accurately be replaced by 'settler' - they are not planning on going home. So: 'Economic migrant settlers'

Come on lets do with all the nice titles and call them what they are " scroungers"

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Morch]

6 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

So you're finally reduced to arguing about anything other than whether the majority of 'refugees' are actually economic migrants?

 

Please give up on your idea of 'intelligent response' by highlighting parts of a post and then ignoring the points made - preferring to concentrate on the (already admitted) opinions - and not arguing against them, just making ever more irrelevant opinions about those comments! ?

 

I've no idea what point you thought you were trying to make, or how it relates to my comment.

[manarak]

one thing that would be interesting to know is:

 

of asylum seeks that were refused asylum, how many are still in Europe ?

[DILLIGAD]

one thing that would be interesting to know is:
 
of asylum seeks that were refused asylum, how many are still in Europe ?

That is the exact reason why the first thing they do is to loose the passport.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[manarak]

23 minutes ago, DILLIGAD said:

That is the exact reason why the first thing they do is to loose the passport.
 

yes, but does our system work and are refused asylum seekers sent back in a useful timeframe or are they allowed to stay in what effectively is an "open door for anyone policy" ?

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by manarak

[katana]

13 hours ago, mokwit said:

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/06/18/is-merkel-end-right-around-corner.html

 

Immigration is a Core Value

Immigration is not simply a political asset to be horse-traded by leaders in the legislature. Someone should teach Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer this before the Democratic Party goes the way of the dodo.

It cuts too deeply into people’s personal identity and their sense of community and culture. Like it or not, people tend to seek out people like them.

We are hard-wired for this. And the cultural Marxists pushing for George Soros’ vision of the Open Society are bumping up against one of the most basic of human biases and survival instincts. Demonizing and dehumanizing people for political gain is not a path of societal cohesion but rather violence and civil war.

Cultural change comes slowly if at all, depending on the will of the people. Defending the culture is one of the most basic reasons people put up with government ineptitude in the first place.

Betraying that trust is what destroys governments and the powers pushing quislings like Merkel to continue that betrayal regardless of public sentiment are pushing this situation to a crisis point all across the West.

The leadership in Europe and the U.S. have built legal constructs to subvert that mandate while monopolizing the media to convince people this is the right path for their future.

Those who stand up for the shared values that make a country a country, no matter how culturally diverse internally, have seen huge electoral victories, while those that cling to the Utopian fantasy of the new Soviet man edicts of the finger-wagging elites and Progressives continue to lose not only power but legitimacy.

 

Short version: Liberals are the problem.

 

I think this also touches on Africa. People sometimes cite Africa's random borders drawn up there by former colonial powers for some of its deeply troubled hotspots and for why such a vast country with abundant natural resources has not developed to its full potential. If you look at a map of Africa, a lot of the borders there are straight, while in Europe and other parts of the world they tend to follow natural barriers such as rivers and mountain ranges which constituted serious obstacles to movement of peoples.
In Africa in the 19th century, the colonial powers arrived in the lands of the indigenous peoples there and drew straight line borders dividing their colonies chiefly in order to avoid conflict with other colonial powers.They could not care less about tribal and ethnic bonds between Africans.
This meant that two villages consisting of people belonging to the same tribe and speaking the same language could find themselves in two different colonies and under two drastically different administrations. Likewise, hostile tribes with different cultures could find themselves grouped together, leading to conflict, division and civil war.

[simple1]

7 hours ago, manarak said:

yes, but does our system work and are refused asylum seekers sent back in a useful timeframe or are they allowed to stay in what effectively is an "open door for anyone policy" ?

 

There are many articles / government discussion on this matter. A reasonable starting point for research...

 

http://www.mixedmigrationplatform.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/MMP-Briefing-Paper-Rejected-asylum-seekers.pdf

[manarak]

19 minutes ago, simple1 said:

There are many articles / government discussion on this matter. A reasonable starting point for research...

 

http://www.mixedmigrationplatform.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/MMP-Briefing-Paper-Rejected-asylum-seekers.pdf

thanks for that link!

it's not difficult to see the figures are catastrophic

only approximatively 50% give suit to the return order

 

and in the paper there is a disconnect between global figures of 360.000 rejections in 2016 and middle east and north africa (MENA), for which the total return orders only amounted to about 120.000

what about the other 240.000 ??? I can't believe there are so many asylum seekers from other parts of the world.

have these 240.000 people been rejected but not been issued return orders?

there is also the backlog from earlier years with similar gaps between rejections and return orders... where are these people?

the paper has no figures for 2017 and 2018...

 

it really suggests that today there could be about 300.000 to 400.000 refused asylum seekers who don't leave plus an even higher number of rejected applicants to which no return order was issued (yet). ??? one million staying illegally after rejection?

 

 

[simple1]

1 hour ago, manarak said:

thanks for that link!

it's not difficult to see the figures are catastrophic

only approximatively 50% give suit to the return order

 

and in the paper there is a disconnect between global figures of 360.000 rejections in 2016 and middle east and north africa (MENA), for which the total return orders only amounted to about 120.000

what about the other 240.000 ??? I can't believe there are so many asylum seekers from other parts of the world.

have these 240.000 people been rejected but not been issued return orders?

there is also the backlog from earlier years with similar gaps between rejections and return orders... where are these people?

the paper has no figures for 2017 and 2018...

 

it really suggests that today there could be about 300.000 to 400.000 refused asylum seekers who don't leave plus an even higher number of rejected applicants to which no return order was issued (yet). ??? one million staying illegally after rejection?

 

 

A number of your questions are answered in the linked document. As stated the linked doco is a starting point, if you're that interested take on further research via the likes of the EU / Frontex, country specific agencies  

 

Members express concern etc etc but cannot be bothered to do basic research. Another starting point which you could have easily located yourself...

 

https://frontex.europa.eu/

Edited June 22, 2018 by simple1

[manarak]

5 hours ago, simple1 said:

A number of your questions are answered in the linked document. As stated the linked doco is a starting point, if you're that interested take on further research via the likes of the EU / Frontex, country specific agencies  

 

Members express concern etc etc but cannot be bothered to do basic research. Another starting point which you could have easily located yourself...

 

https://frontex.europa.eu/

 

you seem to know much better than me where to find this information.

 

the point here was to recognize that there is a problem of too many asylum seekers staying after rejection and the extent of the problem (huge).

 

beyond that, the dicussion about democracy is also relevant, because while minority protection is a good thing, the decision by governments against the will of their voters to import of more minorities from abroad really hurts the feeling of democracy.

 

in several European countries, large groups of voters are right wing without being far right extremists, yet the increasingly left-leaning policies of their elected parties give them the feeling of not being represented in parliament and they are presented with the choice, for example in Germany, to either continue to vote for CDU/Merkel for policies they disapprove of, or to vote for the AfD, which has been taken over by the extreme right in recent years.

The shift of the CDU from the right to the center under Merkel left Germany without a proper right wing party.