4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It’s not just that the President calls for a flagrant breach of the Constitution nor his lack of respect for basic laws that govern the country.

 

It’s also, perhaps as much, about the willingness of his supporters to turn a blind eye to these abuses or, worse still, actively support them.

 

We’ll see (already have seen)  examples of this as the discussion in this thread progresses.

What about sanctuary states turning a blind eye to illegal immigration (AKA subversion of democracy through voter importation)

3 minutes ago, ezzra said:

Easy for everyone to hide behind the PC cloak roll their eyes to the sky and be merciful and pious like, the question that should be asked is how many more illegal migrants can the US take in before the social system collapses and true american will be left without jobs or social security care because the government and the system are overloaded taking care of millions of undocumented aliens mostly with young children? and when will it all stops? anyone with a coherent answer here or everyone is busy vilifying and demonising Trump?...

 No.

 

The question that should be asked is if the President suspends the Law, due Process and the Constitution at the border, what’s next on his agenda?

4 minutes ago, mokwit said:

What about sanctuary states turning a blind eye to illegal immigration (AKA subversion of democracy through voter importation)

Dealt with by due process through the courts and within the Constitution!

 

Doh!

Mussolini said the same thing, and so did Franco. Hitler was quoted as saying the judicial process was irrelevant. Mark my words. If this loser is allowed to continue, we will see the erosion of democracy, and the eventual institution of either fascism, or a totalitarian republic. Trump despises democracy, and the checks and balances on his power it brings. Why should a judge have the right to question him? 

 

The process of crafting this fascist society was called Gleichschaltung, which translates as ‘moulding into shape’ or ‘forced co-ordination’. While many Nazi policies were part of Gleichschaltung, law and order policies were particularly important. Hitler was well aware most Germans had not voted for him or the NSDAP before 1933. He wanted strict laws to prohibit political opposition, to deal with dissidents and ‘underground’ resistance. 

 

http://alphahistory.com/nazigermany/nazi-law-and-order/

 

 

Just now, darksidedog said:

No. They don't get a free pass. They need to be dealt with by the law. There is law in place, for exactly this purpose. Are you telling me the President should get a free pass to break the law? Or is he above it in your eyes?

He is no more above the law than illegals and sanctuary states - I am just pointing out that there is a lot of people also ignoring the law and due process according to democratically derived laws must be followed. That has not been happening. Illegals breaking the law is as relevant to this thread as Trumps actions  Saying this thread is only about Trump possibly putting himself above the constitution denies the context.

29 minutes ago, ezzra said:

Easy for everyone to hide behind the PC cloak roll their eyes to the sky and be merciful and pious like, the question that should be asked is how many more illegal migrants can the US take in before the social system collapses and true american will be left without jobs or social security care because the government and the system are overloaded taking care of millions of undocumented aliens mostly with young children? and when will it all stops? anyone with a coherent answer here or everyone is busy vilifying and demonising Trump?...

Absolute uneducated nonsense. Countless studies have shown illegal immigrants to be a net benefit to the US economy. They pay taxes and most pay SS, with the use of fake SS cards. They will never see one penny of that money. All of that money is going to the state and the feds. Most do not have use of the medical system, as most do not quality. Sure, some end up in county hospitals. Contrary to what the deflector in chief has to say about this matter, the facts speak differently, which is ALWAYS the case with anything that comes out of the mouth of Trump. The bottom line is that the average American does not want most of the jobs that illegal immigrants are willing to take. Work in slaughterhouses, cleaning, gardening, picking fruit, most agricultural labor, washing dishes, etc. Very few healthy white men would take those jobs. Most are too lazy to work for $8.50 an hour.

 

The bottom line is this. Despite what the racist supporters of Tiny D. say, want to believe, or profess, the people of color and ethnicity are the best part of America. When I travel back here, which is often, the most friendly, interesting, warm, kind, and humorous people I meet are inevitably either Latino, or Black. They bring alot to the table. And as sorry as this sounds, most white people in the US bring very, very little to the table, when it comes to interaction or social worth. Alot are truly empty vessels. They work, eat and sleep. And there are far more white people collecting benefits and refusing to work, than his devotees would have us believe.  

 

And why not vilify and demonize Trump? It not only is fun, but it is the correct thing to do. In a democracy, when people really screw up, and this man does over and over again, they deserve our wrath. The wrath of the American people is just starting to show, with people like Nielsen, and Sanders being heckled out of restaurants. Good on those people. We need to see far more of that. And we need to see people calling out the huckster more often. He deserves that. He has earned it with his hatred, division, racist diatribes, support of dictators, alienation of our closest allies, and destruction of our economy. His supporters like to cite the macro economic numbers. Well, unless you are in real estate, or playing the stock market, or in the top 7% of Americans, you are hurting right now. Prices are skyrocketing, despite the fake inflation news from the very white house, and wages are stagnant. Consumer confidence is very, very low. Do not believe the hype. That is all it is. Nothing behind it. 

 

The future success of the US, depends on the country’s ability to attract the best and brightest. Over half of U.S. startups now worth $1 billion or more were founded by immigrants. Forty percent of Fortune 500 companies were started by immigrants or their children. And all six of America’s 2016 Nobel Prize winners in science and economics were immigrants. The problem is the immigration system is completely broken, and due to an antiquated quota system, the US can no longer offer visas to the top candidates. It is called the dumbing down of America. Something that Trump does not touch upon. He is too afraid to discuss it. No solutions. He bitches and moans, but offers no solutions. Closing the border is not a solution. It is like putting a band aid on a massive cut. 

 

According to the Pew Research Hispanic Trends Project, there were 8.4 million unauthorized immigrants employed in the U.S.; representing 5.2 percent of the U.S. labor force (an increase from 3.8 percent in 2000). Their importance was highlighted in a report by Texas Comptroller Susan Combs that stated, “Without the undocumented population, Texas’ work force would decrease by 6.3 percent” and Texas’ gross state product would decrease by 2.1 percent.  Furthermore, certain segments of the U.S. economy, like agriculture, are entirely dependent upon illegal immigrants. From the perspective of National Milk Producers Federation in 2009, retail milk prices would increase by 61 percent if its immigrant labor force were to be eliminated. 

 

But what about the immense strain on social services and money spent on welfare for these law breakers? The Congressional Budget Office in 2007 answered this question in the following manner: “Over the past two decades, most efforts to estimate the fiscal impact of immigration in the United States have concluded that, in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use.”  According to the New York Times, the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration claims that undocumented workers have contributed close to 10% ($300 billion) of the Social Security Trust Fund.

 

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/203984-illegal-immigrants-benefit-the-us-economy

Edited June 25, 20188 yr by spidermike007

He's right and I am not a Trump supporter. No passport or visa?  try that in Thailand. People should obey the law just as 99% of us do here.

13 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

He's right and I am not a Trump supporter. No passport or visa?  try that in Thailand. People should obey the law just as 99% of us do here.

 

So let's say you are walking down the street and forgot to bring along any form of ID. The police stop you and ask for "proof of citizenship" right then and there. You state you don't have it on you but it is at home (or elsewhere). The police then decide that you are an illegal and proceed to drop you off at the border. No due process, no judge, just assumption that you are an illegal. You are okay with this?

 

Edited June 25, 20188 yr by Silurian

I ask all liberals:  How many immigrants should be allowed into the USA? Should they be admitted through a legal process or if they cross the boarder are the home free. Fair question, looking for a honest answer.  Please give me a number.

President Donald Trump said on Sunday that people who enter the United States illegally should be sent back immediately to where they came from without any judicial process, likening them to invaders who are trying to "break into" the country.

 

"people who enter the United States illegally"

They are illegal already, isn't it?

Other than to help the lawyers, do they need any further judicial procedures?

Just asking...

Just now, Silurian said:

 

So let's say you are walking down the street and forgot to grab any form of ID. The police stop you and ask for "proof of citizenship" right then and there. You state you don't have it on you but it is at home (or elsewhere). The police then decide that you are an illegal and proceed to drop you off at the border. No due process, no judge, just assumption that you are an illegal. You are okay with this?

 

 

Ah the old 'exaggerated extrapolation'  strategy!  I did not suggest that. It is, though, perfectly reasonable to ask you to provide proof within a time-frame.

 

In fact I DO carry a laminated copy of my passport every time I go out and this is just common sense, I keep another copy in the car and in my bike - on the back is my visa. I suggest you rethink the obvious misinterpretation of my post and reconsider supporting illegal activities.  

1 minute ago, BobBKK said:

Ah the old 'exaggerated extrapolation'  strategy!  I did not suggest that.

 

No, but the reality TV con artist is suggesting just that. Deported with no due process and no judge. The border patrol (police) get to decide right then and there. Yet you defend his policy?

 

Just now, Silurian said:

 

No, but the reality TV con artist is suggesting just that. Deported with no due process and no judge. The border patrol (police) get to decide right then and there. Yet you defend his policy?

 

Yes if you are entering a country without the right docs you should be refused entry.  Could you test this for us?   try entering Thailand without your passport or visa and let us know if you get to see a Court or Judge.

9 minutes ago, Trouble said:

I ask all liberals:  How many immigrants should be allowed into the USA? Should they be admitted through a legal process or if they cross the boarder are the home free. Fair question, looking for a honest answer.  Please give me a number.

But what about the immense strain on social services and money spent on welfare for these law breakers? The Congressional Budget Office in 2007 answered this question in the following manner: “Over the past two decades, most efforts to estimate the fiscal impact of immigration in the United States have concluded that, in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use.”  According to the New York Times, the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration claims that undocumented workers have contributed close to 10% ($300 billion) of the Social Security Trust Fund.

 

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/203984-illegal-immigrants-benefit-the-us-economy

 

They will never see a penny of that money. They are a net benefit to the US economy. What is your issue? Are you pining away for the days when the white man was a majority in America? The good old days? Or are you simply watching Fox news too much?  

Just now, spidermike007 said:

But what about the immense strain on social services and money spent on welfare for these law breakers? The Congressional Budget Office in 2007 answered this question in the following manner: “Over the past two decades, most efforts to estimate the fiscal impact of immigration in the United States have concluded that, in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use.”  According to the New York Times, the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration claims that undocumented workers have contributed close to 10% ($300 billion) of the Social Security Trust Fund.

 

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/203984-illegal-immigrants-benefit-the-us-economy

 

They will never see a penny of that money. They are a net benefit to the US economy. What is your issue? Are you pining away for the days when the white man was a majority in America? The good old days? Or are you simply watching Fox news too much?  

 

Forgetting how much they illegally contribute why are you defending illegality?  I find that very odd, do you support foreigners in Thailand working illegally too?  or do you have double standards?

56 minutes ago, mokwit said:

Does that include immigration laws and illegal immigrants or do they get a free pass in your book?

The only person suggesting that laws should not apply to illegal immigrants is Trump himself. Everyone who breaks the law in the US is entitled to due process. Trump has Tweeted about due process previously and stated that everyone is entitled to it.

Hillary now working on Donald's family tree.

Americans first, send them back home. See ya!

That is the Law. You cross the border illegally the first time it's a misdemeanor. The second time you do it, it's a Felony. 

Do you know that the  numbers of illegal immigrants to the US has actually declined sharply since 2000?. There is no crisis except one of Trump's manufacture.

12 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 

Forgetting how much they illegally contribute why are you defending illegality?  I find that very odd, do you support foreigners in Thailand working illegally too?  or do you have double standards?

Why is Donald Trump defending illegality? He promised to institute a strict E-verify program during his campaign. We haven't heard much if anything about it since his election. Maybe that's because it could subject employers to fines and imprisonment?

25 minutes ago, Silurian said:

 

So let's say you are walking down the street and forgot to bring along any form of ID. The police stop you and ask for "proof of citizenship" right then and there. You state you don't have it on you but it is at home (or elsewhere). The police then decide that you are an illegal and proceed to drop you off at the border. No due process, no judge, just assumption that you are an illegal. You are okay with this?

 

So let's say this, you are sat in your house one evening watching tv and drinking cocoa and somebody walks into your house 'illegally' and decides to make it their house. Would you 1. Go down the path of the judicial system or 2. Man up and kick them out?

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

So let's say this, you are sat in your house one evening watching tv and drinking cocoa and somebody walks into your house 'illegally' and decides to make it their house. Would you 1. Go down the path of the judicial system or 2. Man up and kick them out?

 Unlike a person who owns a house, the Government is not the owner of the country. It's the enforcer of laws and bound by the rules.

10 minutes ago, Boon Mee said:

That is the Law. You cross the border illegally the first time it's a misdemeanor. The second time you do it, it's a Felony. 

No, that is not the law. You president is suggesting ' never mind the law, send them home straight away'. So as a law abiding citizen, how do you feel about that?

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

DarksideDog

 

A genuine question. 

 

The OP says

 

Are illegal immigrants actually covered by the Constitution ?

 

 

Due process of the law is covered. Thus, The Donald's frustration with being unable to have his orders filled without qustion. Otherwise, he could deal with the issue very efficiently, but then we would have a dictator, not a POTUS.

He is just pandering to his base and trying to distract devide confuse etc etc soon he will be in the hot seat with muller and if Cohen flips he will get really really crazy also he wants to distract from the n Korea fiasco and his trade war fiasco

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

DarksideDog

 

A genuine question. 

 

The OP says

 

Are illegal immigrants actually covered by the Constitution ?

 

 

Article 14 section 1 US Constitution, " . . . nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

 

Any person.

42 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 

I feel good. I have been to the USA 20 times and my documents were always in order, passport in hand and visa prepared. If any of those were not in order I would expect to be turned back, what's the issue with this? 

 

Did you come to Thailand with your passport and visa prepared or are you here illegally?  when you approached the immigration desk, with no passport/visa, would you expect to see a Judge or just get turned back?

The US already has laws that allow them to turn back people at the port of entry without seeing a judge. Either Trump is suggesting laws that already exist are needed (he may not know they exist) which is bizarre or he is talking about people who have already got into the country illegally. If you are caght in Thailand illegally you will be arrested and will appear before a judge.

lol - well, it didn't take long for Hitler to get a mention.

 

http://trac.syr.edu/phptools/immigration/court_backlog/

 

There's a backlog of over 700,000 immigration court cases waiting to be heard. If you consider the cost to the taxpayer of hearing all these cases - it's billions of dollars. The backlog is growing.

 

It's pretty obvious there needs to be a solution - that it can't go on and shortcutting the process is quite reasonable. 

 

If that is not an acceptable solution to the issue, then perhaps people can offer theirs... taking down the borders and letting everyone in is one option.  I am not a big fan of that. 

 

so - if there's to be some degree of control over who lives in the country, then the rules need to be laid out. As it is, the rules are made ineffective by catch and release.  So there seems to be a game being played to make it look like there is control but at the same time it's been made 100% ineffective. So if you get in, you can stay. If that's what one side wants, why not simply campaign on that platform?

 

If people want some degree of control and to really discourage people coming in illegally, then there needs to be an efficient, cost effective way to discourage people from trying.

 

Nobody is Hitler, this isn't a race issue. It's a massive problem with few people giving solutions and LOTs of people acting irrationally.

 

 

For once i agree with him and so should we do in Europe every one that disagrees no problem get a lawyer and pay him ur self...