Small AA Group - Tradition 3

[MrPatrickThai]

On 9/30/2018 at 11:06 AM, gerryBScot said:

What might some so-called 'real alcoholic' of the type that posts here have advised?!!!! 

Maybe, 'go out until you're under no illusion that your an alcoholic'. Personally, there are low bottom drunks everywhere that can be helped rather than wasting time on 'I drank 3 beers a night and feel sad in the morning' kinda drinkers.

[gerryBScot]

22 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Maybe, 'go out until you're under no illusion that your an alcoholic'. Personally, there are low bottom drunks everywhere that can be helped rather than wasting time on 'I drank 3 beers a night and feel sad in the morning' kinda drinkers.

How grateful I remain to that stranger for his advice. Better in here pretending you are than in a bar thinking you are not. 

[Wilson Smith]

On 9/27/2018 at 8:41 AM, mogandave said:

That would be up to the group. Again AA itself has no opinion. We also are supposed to move away from controversy but yet you bring up a hypothetical. For what? To break tradition 1, unity! We have a primary purpose stay sober and help others and you seem to miss the point. Be in the solution, not the problem! 

Some meetings have smoke-breaks. If some AA members were smoking grass during an AA meeting smoke-break, you’d think nothing of it, correct?

An outside issue as it were....

 

 

[MrPatrickThai]

On 10/4/2018 at 10:28 AM, gerryBScot said:

How grateful I remain to that stranger for his advice. Better in here pretending you are than in a bar thinking you are not. 

Perhaps, but you shouldn't be allowed to speak in a meeting. But of course, you are welcome,  can't be kicked out of an open meeting.

[MrPatrickThai]

On 9/27/2018 at 8:41 AM, mogandave said:

 

Some meetings have smoke-breaks. If some AA members were smoking grass during an AA meeting smoke-break, you’d think nothing of it, correct?

An outside issue as it were....

It's illegal, of course people would mind as it could get the meeting closed down.

[mogandave]

It's illegal, of course people would mind as it could get the meeting closed down.

Plenty of places it’s legal and plenty of places people can get prescriptions for it.

What about those places?

[MrPatrickThai]

6 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Plenty of places it’s legal and plenty of places people can get prescriptions for it.

What about those places?

 

Dude, not in Thailand or the area. I can only think of one country where this could happen.

And these people would be <deleted> if they disrespected an AA meeting like this, knowing that smoking dope is a trigger to drink for most alcoholics.

 

I would say half the people in Thailand in AA are addicted to something else(outside issue) be it anti-depressants/pain-killers/sleeping pills, sex(especially in Pattaya), gambling etc and nobody says anything as they are taught to live and let live. There is only one requirement, to be an alcoholic(as described in detail in the Big Book) and want to quit.

[gerryBScot]

I am an alcoholic and my name is Gerry. 

[MrPatrickThai]

2 minutes ago, gerryBScot said:

I am an alcoholic and my name is Gerry. 

Hi Gerry!

 

When did you stop pretending, by the way?

[gerryBScot]

 

21 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Hi Gerry!

 

When did you stop pretending, by the way?

Thanks Patrick and hi. I never stopped pretending. In the early days in AA I had my doubts. Like prior to the 30 years I drank before I went to my first meeting I knew my relationship with alcohol wasn't normal. I knew this from the start at age 14.  Like many people who were burdened ( do you notice I am using a past tense?!!!) with alcoholism I thought I maybe wasn't an alcoholic. I learned this doubt had been relatively common among the many people I met in the rooms and usually was the source of much mirth. But I shared about it at a meeting once and instead of being closed down, someone offered the pretend scenario. It was just  a feeling and I didn't drink on it then or any other time. I am glad I shared and I am hugely grateful for the pretend scenario. These days it's kind of academic. I don't ever think I'm not an alcoholic but booze is just so far away from me these days. Well not true the minibar is full of it but it's useless to me. I know everything about my life is infinitesmally better, which I attribute to an active AA  programme and involvement over jy first ten years. I wouldn't drink if you or any other authority on alcohol said I could and indeed should! But I would be very reluctant to challenge your right or anyone else's right to be at an AA meeting.

[MrPatrickThai]

5 minutes ago, gerryBScot said:

 

Thanks Patrick and hi. I never stopped pretending. In the early days in AA I had my doubts. Like prior to the 30 years I drank before I went to my first meeting I knew my relationship with alcohol wasn't normal. I knew this from the start at age 14.  Like many people who were burdened ( do you notice I am using a past tense?!!!) with alcoholism I thought I maybe wasn't an alcoholic. I learned this doubt had been relatively common among the many people I met in the rooms and usually was the source of much mirth. But I shared about it at a meeting once and instead of being closed down, someone offered the pretend scenario. It was just  a feeling and I didn't drink on it then or any other time. I am glad I shared and I am hugely grateful for the pretend scenario. These days it's kind of academic. I don't ever think I'm not an alcoholic but booze is just so far away from me these days. Well not true the minibar is full of it but it's useless to me. I know everything about my life is infinitesmally better, which I attribute to an active AA  programme and involvement over jy first ten years. I wouldn't drink if you or any other authority on alcohol said I could and indeed should! But I would be very reluctant to challenge your right or anyone else's right to be at an AA meeting.

Thanks for sharing Gerry.

 

Good to see you using the past tense(i would have noticed;)), I assume you mean you are recovered, like I.

 

Do you choose not to drink today?

[gerryBScot]

35 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Thanks for sharing Gerry.

 

Good to see you using the past tense(i would have noticed;)), I assume you mean you are recovered, like I.

 

Do you choose not to drink today?

Not sure it's about choice Patrick. I learned in AA that for me to drink again is to die. I accepted it way back then and I accept it today. I accept I can never drink again. I'm not fighting it, never have since I came in. I accept I am an

[gerryBScot]

...alcoholic.

[Wilson Smith]

On 10/6/2018 at 12:35 AM, MrPatrickThai said:

It's illegal, of course people would mind as it could get the meeting closed down.

Again it is an outside issue. The group can decide what they want to do and pay the price for it. As it says in tradition one and tradition four, "Those who look closely soon have the key to this strange paradox. The A.A. member has to conform to the principles of recovery. His life actually depends upon obedience to spiritual principles. If he deviates too far, the penalty is sure and swift; he sickens and dies." this apply for the group and the individual. The group as the right to be wrong (tradition 4).

 

So AA does not tell anyone they MUST or CANNOT so something. 

[Wilson Smith]

31 minutes ago, hyku1147 said:

Closed meetings are for alcoholics only.

 

And an Alcoholic is anyone who states they are an Alcoholic. 

[rott]

On 10/3/2018 at 11:39 AM, MrPatrickThai said:

Maybe, 'go out until you're under no illusion that your an alcoholic'. Personally, there are low bottom drunks everywhere that can be helped rather than wasting time on 'I drank 3 beers a night and feel sad in the morning' kinda drinkers.

I have seen it stated on here that having three drinks a day shows alcohol dependency.

[likerdup1]

On 10/3/2018 at 11:25 AM, MrPatrickThai said:

Richard Alpert(Ram Dass) or Bob Marley would say differently.

So who says Bob Marley was not a pot addict or addicted to other drugs? Also anybody know if Bob Marley was looking for recovery from any kind of addiction? That is what we are talking about here.

 

The point is that people who are alcoholic AND want recovery from alcoholism the AA way need to have a spiritual awakening sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism. For me - NO WAY was doing another drug, especially pot (which made me paranoid as hell) was going to bring about a spiritual awakening. What did it for me and continues to work is doing the 12 steps.

 

Just because someone is a famous musician does not mean they are spiritually enlightened. Just because a guy is famous and sings well and dances around on stage shouting love one another does not necessarily mean he is spiritually enlightened.

Edited October 14, 2018 by likerdup1

[likerdup1]

On 10/12/2018 at 9:39 AM, Wilson Smith said:

And an Alcoholic is anyone who states they are an Alcoholic. 

The long form of the third tradition helps with this. The fellowship of AA ought to be for all who are seeking recovery from alcoholism. Unfortunately the fellowship in some meetings get people with all kinds of problems mainly because, in my opinion, a lot of rehabs tell people with other problems: Hey if you can't find an SLA or GA, or CA meeting in your area just go to AA!

 

This is an issue because it takes away from singleness of purpose and makes it really hard for a real alcoholic to identify if people are sharing about gambling, drug addition or other war stores that ARE not about how the two fold disease of alcoholism manifest in their lives.

 

We have guys in Pattaya that go to meetings who have stayed sober for a long time on NO steps and come in talking on and on about sex addiction or drug addiction. That does little to help A REAL alcoholic who walks into his or her first AA meeting. It only creates confusion. There are quite a few men in AA here in Thailand that go just for the social aspect and seem to have forgotten that AA is for people who want recovery from alcoholism. There could be someone (in fact there should be a lot more people) walking in the doors looking for help from alcoholism and WE NEED to be prepared to help these people AS THE BOOK outlines. Help them identify first if the are alcoholic then present them with the spiritual tools (the steps)

Edited October 14, 2018 by likerdup1

[mogandave]

The long form of the third tradition helps with this. The fellowship of AA ought to be for all who are seeking recovery from alcoholism. Unfortunately the fellowship in some meetings get people with all kinds of problems mainly because, in my opinion, a lot of rehabs tell people with other problems: Hey if you can't find an SLA or GA, or CA meeting in your area just go to AA!
 
This is an issue because it takes away from singleness of purpose and makes it really hard for a real alcoholic to identify if people are sharing about gambling, drug addition or other war stores that ARE not about how the two fold disease of alcoholism manifest in their lives.
 
We have guys in Pattaya that go to meetings who have stayed sober for a long time on NO steps and come in talking on and on about sex addiction or drug addiction. That does little to help A REAL alcoholic who walks into his or her first AA meeting. It only creates confusion. There are quite a few men in AA here in Thailand that go just for the social aspect and seem to have forgotten that AA is for people who want recovery from alcoholism. There could be someone (in fact there should be a lot more people) walking in the doors looking for help from alcoholism and WE NEED to be prepared to help these people AS THE BOOK outlines. Help them identify first if the are alcoholic then present them with the spiritual tools (the steps)

So we need to be more exclusive, yes?

[likerdup1]

Just now, mogandave said:

 

So we need to be more exclusive, yes?

Exclusive how? Why even use that word? It is not about exclusivity but about what the REAL purpose of every AA group SHOULD be. That is to help alcoholics who walk in the room looking for help. How can AA be helpful to alcoholics if we start letting people in with every problem under the sun? Check the traditions .. the 12 and 12 essays are great for clarifying this. Go to the literature with questions. Not here!  3rd tradition and 5th tradition.

[mogandave]

Exclusive how? Why even use that word? It is not about exclusivity but about what the REAL purpose of every AA group SHOULD be. That is to help alcoholics who walk in the room looking for help. How can AA be helpful to alcoholics if we start letting people in with every problem under the sun? Check the traditions .. the 12 and 12 essays are great for clarifying this. Go to the literature with questions. Not here!  3rd tradition and 5th tradition.

You talk about people you think should be excluded, you you flare at the word “exclusive”. Interesting, albeit telling...

[likerdup1]

10 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

You talk about people you think should be excluded, you you flare at the word “exclusive”. Interesting, albeit telling...

Forgive me but I am doubting and confused now what the conversation is about. I would suggest reading the 12 and 12 tradition essays concerning singleness of purpose. AA is meant to be exclusive in certain ways ... but I am not going to discuss it any further. If you are curious then read the 12 and 12 essays.

[mogandave]

Forgive me but I am doubting and confused now what the conversation is about. I would suggest reading the 12 and 12 tradition essays concerning singleness of purpose. AA is meant to be exclusive in certain ways ... but I am not going to discuss it any further. If you are curious then read the 12 and 12 essays.

I forgive your confusion.

[Jonah Tenner]

2 hours ago, mogandave said:

So we need to be more exclusive, yes?

 

I would not say we need to be more exclusive, but we do need to focus more on our primary purpose, and try to keep our meetings centered on this.

[Neeranam]

 

6 hours ago, likerdup1 said:

Help them identify first if the are alcoholic then present them with the spiritual tools (the steps)

Spiritual tools to fix a physical allergy or mental obsession?

 

No, to fix the spiritual malady by having a spiritual awakening, by connecting to the power of God, as we understand it.

 

Our book promises us that “When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically.”The mental and physical factors of alcoholism are put into remission AFTER the “spiritual malady” is overcome — which means I’m still in danger of drinking until I have a spiritual awakening — whether I think so or not.

 

[Neeranam]

On 10/12/2018 at 9:39 AM, Wilson Smith said:

And an Alcoholic is anyone who states they are an Alcoholic. 

No, I've known a few to liner about it,  just to be accepted in their sad little lives.

[Neeranam]

5 hours ago, mogandave said:



So we need to be more exclusive, yes?

Absolutely, stop being codependent people pleasers and kick a few out that don't belong, ie are not alcoholic.

[Neeranam]

5 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

I forgive your confusion.

 

Take his suggestion and read the 12 traditions.

[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, Jonah Tenner said:

I would not say we need to be more exclusive, but we do need to focus more on our primary purpose, and try to keep our meetings centered on this.

I would. The power of the AA group is a common suffering that normies can never understand.

[Wilson Smith]

On 10/14/2018 at 8:33 AM, likerdup1 said:

The long form of the third tradition helps with this. The fellowship of AA ought to be for all who are seeking recovery from alcoholism. Unfortunately the fellowship in some meetings get people with all kinds of problems mainly because, in my opinion, a lot of rehabs tell people with other problems: Hey if you can't find an SLA or GA, or CA meeting in your area just go to AA!

 

This is an issue because it takes away from singleness of purpose and makes it really hard for a real alcoholic to identify if people are sharing about gambling, drug addition or other war stores that ARE not about how the two fold disease of alcoholism manifest in their lives.

 

We have guys in Pattaya that go to meetings who have stayed sober for a long time on NO steps and come in talking on and on about sex addiction or drug addiction. That does little to help A REAL alcoholic who walks into his or her first AA meeting. It only creates confusion. There are quite a few men in AA here in Thailand that go just for the social aspect and seem to have forgotten that AA is for people who want recovery from alcoholism. There could be someone (in fact there should be a lot more people) walking in the doors looking for help from alcoholism and WE NEED to be prepared to help these people AS THE BOOK outlines. Help them identify first if the are alcoholic then present them with the spiritual tools (the steps)

Luckily AA does not care about your opinion or your judgement on others who attend the meeting.  

 

Attempting to use "parts" of the literature as a weapon. Why don't you quote the full writing. Tradition 3 has a very painful history and in the end it was settled.

 

" We were resolved to admit nobody to A.A. but that hypothetical class of people we termed pure alcoholics." So beggars, tramps, asylum inmates, prisoners, queers ( old skool useage) plain crackpots, and fallen women were definitely out." 

The next paragraph delves into the fear - "isn't fear the true basis of intolerance? Yes, we were intolerant."

The modern outcome is " You are an AA member if you say so. You can declare yourself in; nobody can keep you out." 

Later in the chapter we read " Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner of his own sick brother?"