Small AA Group - Tradition 3

[gerryBScot]

It's good that the focus of this post is moving to some consideration of what happens at meetings. I thought it was all about the newcomer.

 

I know a guy, a newcomer, who showed up at a meeting in BKK in his early days and had a book foisted on him, non-AA literature of course, and told he could give the author the money for it later. This is a newcomer and the author purports to be an experienced AA but is trying to flog the book, so is using the fellowship for their own ends and most importantly being allowed to do so by the trusted servants of that meeting. He didn't see the author for a few months but when they ran into each other the guy took an earful of abuse about his 'debt'. That's a great way to welcome a newcomer ….. not. How is this allowed to happen?

 

Same guy recently managed to string a year together, took the chip, then in the aftermath of the meeting was challenged about counting days and years and taking chips by some one else claiming to be experienced in recovery …..<deleted>! And here I try to follow this thread where some are proposing a kind of sobriety police the implications of which  would be inter alia a written membership application and a signed solemn declaration.

 

All this confirms to me my worst fears, those which I had  when I lived in Thailand. We of AA appear to be in deep trouble and have lost sight of our primary purpose. Live and let live

[mogandave]

So what did you do about the “author”?

[likerdup1]

5 hours ago, gerryBScot said:

It's good that the focus of this post is moving to some consideration of what happens at meetings. I thought it was all about the newcomer.

 

I know a guy, a newcomer, who showed up at a meeting in BKK in his early days and had a book foisted on him, non-AA literature of course, and told he could give the author the money for it later. This is a newcomer and the author purports to be an experienced AA but is trying to flog the book, so is using the fellowship for their own ends and most importantly being allowed to do so by the trusted servants of that meeting. He didn't see the author for a few months but when they ran into each other the guy took an earful of abuse about his 'debt'. That's a great way to welcome a newcomer ….. not. How is this allowed to happen?

 

Same guy recently managed to string a year together, took the chip, then in the aftermath of the meeting was challenged about counting days and years and taking chips by some one else claiming to be experienced in recovery …..<deleted>! And here I try to follow this thread where some are proposing a kind of sobriety police the implications of which  would be inter alia a written membership application and a signed solemn declaration.

 

All this confirms to me my worst fears, those which I had  when I lived in Thailand. We of AA appear to be in deep trouble and have lost sight of our primary purpose. Live and let live

One reason I am posting at all about this topic and what is the program of AA and what is not is because I have great concern for new people who show up to meetings looking for help. The reality is we of the fellowship are in a unique position to save lives. The Big Book and 12 and 12 give very precise and specific direction about how to help new people and what to show them to do .. which is the 12 steps. Clear cut and precise direction is given in our basic texts: The Big Book and 12 and 12.

Here in Thailand and many meetings around the world the true message of recovery the AA way has been watered down and damn near lost.

 

The message of AA is simple .. I consider my self still a student of the program and I am 25 years sober. But I have learned one thing that is most important.

 

The message of the program of AA is "recovery from alcoholism through a spiritual awakening brought about by doing the steps"

 

So many people seek to profit and lift themselves up as self appointed recovery gurus. Doctors with less than ethical standards create programs that they themselves are "only qualified to deliver"

 

It's a damn travesty and is frustrating at times that one can go into a meeting of AA and never hear the message of recovery the AA way!! its sad.

 

I started my own group in Pattaya for just that reason. We are trying our best to deliver the clear and true message of recovery the AA way. We are the Pattaya Area Big Book Group

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by likerdup1

[gerryBScot]

10 hours ago, mogandave said:

So what did you do about the “author”?

I couldn't do very much about it as I am only really a very occasional visitor to Thailand these days and rarely to meetings in Thailand. I am therefore not involved in a group conscience process. If I had been directly involved, I would like to think I would have had a gentle word with the 'author' and suggested:  a gift of an AA Big Book with contact details of willing helpers written into it; a reminder to said author to ensure only AA approved literature is shared at meetings; and a further reminder for potentially giving a newcomer reasons for staying away, as proved to be the case here . At the point at which said author told me to go forth and multiply, as I would expect, then I would raise the matter with the trusted servants and have it raised at a group conscience in the hope of seeking re-affirmation of official AA policy.

 

All of which brings me back to my beginnings in AA where I learned so many valuable skills for coping with the real world. My initial sponsor suggested, after I got into trouble through borrowing money from another AA,  that I should never lend anybody money; he advised that it was ok to give and that I could give on the express agreement that if the person I gave to got back on tracks that they would pass the gift on to another person experiencing hard times on the same basis.  He was a very wise guy - he added that way you'll only give a small amount and more importantly on the basis that it is a gift then it should not be the source of a resentment further down the road.

 

I love AA and what it stands for and I love the common sense and decency of many of the people who were lucky enough to get to its rooms and felt able to stay and get sober.

Edited October 27, 2018 by gerryBScot

[mogandave]

I couldn't do very much about it as I am only really a very occasional visitor to Thailand these days and rarely to meetings in Thailand. I am therefore not involved in a group conscience process. If I had been directly involved, I would like to think I would have had a gentle word with the 'author' and suggested:  a gift of an AA Big Book with contact details of willing helpers written into it; a reminder to said author to ensure only AA approved literature is shared at meetings; and a further reminder for potentially giving a newcomer reasons for staying away, as proved to be the case here . At the point at which said author told me to go forth and multiply, as I would expect, then I would raise the matter with the trusted servants and have it raised at a group conscience in the hope of seeking re-affirmation of official AA policy.
 
All of which brings me back to my beginnings in AA where I learned so many valuable skills for coping with the real world. My initial sponsor suggested, after I got into trouble through borrowing money from another AA,  that I should never lend anybody money; he advised that it was ok to give and that I could give on the express agreement that if the person I gave to got back on tracks that they would pass the gift on to another person experiencing hard times on the same basis.  He was a very wise guy - he added that way you'll only give a small amount and more importantly on the basis that it is a gift then it should not be the source of a resentment further down the road.
 
I love AA and what it stands for and I love the common sense and decency of many of the people who were lucky enough to get to its rooms and felt able to stay and get sober.

Sorry, I thought when you said you knew the newcomer that you were directly involved.

[Rugon]

If they can stop after a few beers and don't have craving, why on earth are they wanting to be AA members?

It's my understanding that they must identify as an alcoholic or they can only listen at the meeting. There are many nuts in AA and especially in Thailand.

[Wilson Smith]

4 hours ago, Rugon said:

There are many nuts in AA and especially in Thailand.

The AA meeting will be a representation of the community it is in. As many "nuts" or not "nuts" some how they are stay sober which generally makes things a lot better then if they were drinking. 

[mogandave]

The AA meeting will be a representation of the community it is in. As many "nuts" or not "nuts" some how they are stay sober which generally makes things a lot better then if they were drinking. 

Yes, but we reserve the right to kick them out if the don’t appear to be the “right” kind of alcoholic.

[Wilson Smith]

14 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Yes, but we reserve the right to kick them out if the don’t appear to be the “right” kind of alcoholic.

 

Not sure if your comment is meant to be sarcastic or you have missed the whole point of the AA movement. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Wilson Smith

[mogandave]

Not sure if your comment is meant to be sarcastic or you have missed the whole point of the AA movement. 

It was meant to be a sarcastic jab at the OP.

[Rugon]

15 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Yes, but we reserve the right to kick them out if the don’t appear to be the “right” kind of alcoholic.

 

We can't kick ANY alcoholic out, but we can kick non-alcoholics out, obviously.

[Wilson Smith]

2 minutes ago, Rugon said:

We can't kick ANY alcoholic out, but we can kick non-alcoholics out, obviously.

You sound like a beacon of happiness. Read the text, its an inward journey, the problem is not outside! 

[mogandave]

We can't kick ANY alcoholic out, but we can kick non-alcoholics out, obviously.

Yes obviously, if the anointed one(s) determine someone is not a REAL alcoholic they are free (and perhaps duty-bound) to kick these intruders out!!!

[Rugon]

13 minutes ago, Wilson Smith said:

You sound like a beacon of happiness. Read the text, its an inward journey, the problem is not outside! 

It sounds like the problem of the OP is certainly outside. I agree with what he says. 

[Rugon]

15 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Yes obviously, if the anointed one(s) determine someone is not a REAL alcoholic they are free (and perhaps duty-bound) to kick these intruders out!!!

 

Quite right. What do you mean by REAL alcoholic? You either are or aren't.

[Wilson Smith]

1 minute ago, Rugon said:

Quite right. What do you mean by REAL alcoholic? You either are or aren't.

The point is, which step talks about "kicking" someone out?

 

Ok so let me guess that you are referring  "we" in tradition 2, the group conscience. Lets read the complete tradition 

 

For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

 

Some how to do not envision a loving God expressing the word "kick out" Sounds like your personal fear issue. Read tradition 3 in the 12x12.

Plus there all ready 14 pages discussed here.

 

[mogandave]

The point is, which step talks about "kicking" someone out?
 
Ok so let me guess that you are referring  "we" in tradition 2, the group conscience. Lets read the complete tradition 
 
For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
 
Some how to do not envision a loving God expressing the word "kick out" Sounds like your personal fear issue. Read tradition 3 in the 12x12.
Plus there all ready 14 pages discussed here.
 

In some groups, God chooses to work through an anointed leader or leaders to make such determinations.

[Rugon]

1 hour ago, Wilson Smith said:

The point is, which step talks about "kicking" someone out?

 

Ok so let me guess that you are referring  "we" in tradition 2, the group conscience. Lets read the complete tradition 

 

For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

 

Some how to do not envision a loving God expressing the word "kick out" Sounds like your personal fear issue. Read tradition 3 in the 12x12.

Plus there all ready 14 pages discussed here.

 

No tradition says that. But one tradition(3) says there is a requirement for membership.

[Wilson Smith]

59 minutes ago, Rugon said:

No tradition says that. But one tradition(3) says there is a requirement for membership.

Here we go again, only knowing half of the truth is worse then not knowing at all. 

 

Attempting to use "parts" of the literature. Why don't you quote the full writing. Tradition 3 has a very painful history and in the end it was settled.

 

" We were resolved to admit nobody to A.A. but that hypothetical class of people we termed pure alcoholics." So beggars, tramps, asylum inmates, prisoners, queers ( old skool useage) plain crackpots, and fallen women were definitely out." 

The next paragraph delves into the fear - "isn't fear the true basis of intolerance? Yes, we were intolerant."

The modern outcome is " You are an AA member if you say so. You can declare yourself in; nobody can keep you out." 

Later in the chapter we read " Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner of his own sick brother?" 

 

 

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, Rugon said:

No tradition says that. But one tradition(3) says there is a requirement for membership.

If you read the whole thread, you'll see that some think that anyone can join Alcoholics Anonymous, even if they don't have a drink problem, and some follow the tradition 3 and common sense that of course you have to have the disease of  alcoholism.

 

Of course new people might not be willing to admit they have an alcohol problem and should be made welcome,  but after a year or so,  and working with an experienced member, they should be able to decide if they are an alcoholic or not. If not, they shouldn't be there, AA is not a social club.

[Neeranam]

41 minutes ago, Wilson Smith said:

Attempting to use "parts" of the literature. Why don't you quote the full writing. Tradition 3 has a very painful history and in the end it was settled.

 

" We were resolved to admit nobody to A.A. but that hypothetical class of people we termed pure alcoholics." So beggars, tramps, asylum inmates, prisoners, queers ( old skool useage) plain crackpots, and fallen women were definitely out." 

What you've quoted is not tradition 3.

[Wilson Smith]

22 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

What you've quoted is not tradition 3.

Perhaps the book that it is quoted from is labeled its chapters wrong, have a look.

 

https://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_tradition3.pdf 

[gerryBScot]

4 hours ago, Neeranam said:

If you read the whole thread, you'll see that some think that anyone can join Alcoholics Anonymous, even if they don't have a drink problem

 

I don't want to be misunderstood here. I'm simply against kicking people out. I really don't want the responsibility for someone's death or harm if I tell them they are not an alky and that it is therefore by implication ok for them to imbibe. I think AA's essential character would change dramatically if challenging people became a feature of meetings. But of course it doesn't work this way in the real world. People drift away usually if meetings have no meaning to them. I've yet to meet anybody who was at an AA meeting by accident or in error. Once I was at a meeting where a journo declared they were there for research purposes and a trusted servant took them outside and explained how and why it worked and that because of this, no, they couldn't sit in, even for research. I rather fancy this is the big problem in our meetings in Thailand - our groups lack trusted servants who are grounded in the fellowship and its traditions, members that know how to deal with the range of folks and situations that can crop up.

[Neeranam]

12 hours ago, gerryBScot said:

I don't want to be misunderstood here. I'm simply against kicking people out. I really don't want the responsibility for someone's death or harm if I tell them they are not an alky and that it is therefore by implication ok for them to imbibe. 

I understand what you mean.

I also don't want to be responsible for the newcomers death when the non-alcoholic tells them that they get on fine without working the steps. I did a workshop once with many Thai alcoholics where a lonely old guy, who wasn't an alcoholic, started telling them not to do the steps as he was sober 10 years, never had any character defects and the steps were for sick people.

I asked him to shut up, but couldn't kick him out as he said he had a desire to stop drinking, but certainly wasn't an alcoholic. I wonder how many he killed in his 10 years of going to meetings he didn't need but liked to go to and meet people with beautiful Thai wives.

Can you see my point?

[mogandave]

I understand what you mean.
I also don't want to be responsible for the newcomers death when the non-alcoholic tells them that they get on fine without working the steps. I did a workshop once with many Thai alcoholics where a lonely old guy, who wasn't an alcoholic, started telling them not to do the steps as he was sober 10 years, never had any character defects and the steps were for sick people.
I asked him to shut up, but couldn't kick him out as he said he had a desire to stop drinking, but certainly wasn't an alcoholic. I wonder how many he killed in his 10 years of going to meetings he didn't need but liked to go to and meet people with beautiful Thai wives.
Can you see my point?

I don’t think anyone doubts for a moment you are well intended.

[Wilson Smith]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

I understand what you mean.

I also don't want to be responsible for the newcomers death when the non-alcoholic tells them that they get on fine without working the steps. I did a workshop once with many Thai alcoholics where a lonely old guy, who wasn't an alcoholic, started telling them not to do the steps as he was sober 10 years, never had any character defects and the steps were for sick people.

I asked him to shut up, but couldn't kick him out as he said he had a desire to stop drinking, but certainly wasn't an alcoholic. I wonder how many he killed in his 10 years of going to meetings he didn't need but liked to go to and meet people with beautiful Thai wives.

Can you see my point?

I think the point is that we have to trust other members including the new people that they can see and hear crazy people just as you can. If we share a positive solution others and all AA principles they will be attracted to the message of recovery. Yes there are rare occasions that test tradition one so much that action may be required but it always needs to be done with love and tolerance (as this is our code).  

[MrPatrickThai]

On 11/12/2018 at 11:56 AM, Rugon said:

If they can stop after a few beers and don't have craving, why on earth are they wanting to be AA members?

They are too cheap to pay for proper counseling, that also dosen't exist outside large cities here.

[Rugon]

1 hour ago, MrPatrickThai said:

They are too cheap to pay for proper counseling, that also dosen't exist outside large cities here.

That is a dilemma.

[mogandave]

Yes, regardless of whether or not they identify as alcoholics, in the event our trusted servants determine they are not real alcoholics, they need to be expelled and disallowed from closed AA meetings.

There are programs for these people, but clearly it is not the AA program.

[Rugon]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

Yes, regardless of whether or not they identify as alcoholics, in the event our trusted servants determine they are not real alcoholics, they need to be expelled and disallowed from closed AA meetings.

 

How exactly can member be sure? I guess they should have a group vote.