unusual situation with work permit agency contract vs school

[jaffas21]

Hi  .. this is a bit confusing for me so i'll detail everything with a bit of backstory

 

When I went for my current job, it was arranged by an Agency based in Bangkok. However when I signed a contract it was with the school not the agent. The agent signed a contract with the school to provide me apparently(most people here think my contract should be with the agent not the school, any thoughts on this one?)

 

When it came to arranging the non b, the agent didn't get the documents they needed from the ministry of education to organise the non b in time,so I ended up getting a tourist extension which the school paid for along with my wages. Then the school, not the agent did the non-b paperwork (which has all their stamps, signed by the head of the school which are the same as when you are employed by the school, not an agent).

 

1).So therefore my non-b is provided by the school, however correct me if i'm wrong, the work permit must be provided by the agent if they are my employer. If they do not provide it. Are they considered my employer even if they have a contract with the school. From a legal perspective my work permit must come from them correct?

 

2).However if my non-b is from the school and my work permit is from an agency .. will this cause some problems at the dept of labour or immigration? coming from two different sources?

 

3).And out of interest, if my contract is with the school and their contract is with the agent who is actually employing me and who is utlimatley responsible as my employer, obviously it should be the agency but this contract thing is bemusing. I even have health insurance with the school

 

Can someone advise??

 

thanks

Edited June 26, 2018 by jaffas21

[Slip]

It sounds like your agent has introduced you to the school for a fee, (employment agency as opposed to employment business in UK terms if that helps,) and you are employed by the school.  They are just taking their fee from you on a monthly basis and perhaps dealing with the paperwork on behalf of the school?

[jaffas21]

13 minutes ago, Slip said:

It sounds like your agent has introduced you to the school for a fee, (employment agency as opposed to employment business in UK terms if that helps,) and you are employed by the school.  They are just taking their fee from you on a monthly basis and perhaps dealing with the paperwork on behalf of the school?

Yes that's probably what happened they are getting paid 4000bht per month from my wages which they say are paying for the visa and paying my taxes etc. However they did not do the paperwork for the non B  as detailed in my last post.  The agency has stated many times they are my employer to me personally,  If they are then they have to do the work permit, is this the case? Because they are being paid this 4000 baht for something. It blatantly doesn't make sense for the school to pay them 4000 baht of my wages every month if they don't do anything. Do you see my point.

 

The other point is of course, what if they do the paperwork and the non b and work permit are from two sources. Is this allowed?

 

I'm going to clarifiy all this with them once I see what happens with my wages this time. I'm interested in what should really happen as getting a straight answer has so many barriers

Edited June 26, 2018 by jaffas21

[Slip]

I suspect someone is not playing straight with you- as you said in the OP- your contract is with the school.  Are you paid by the agency or the school?

[jaffas21]

I'm supposed to be paid by the agency but as they allegedly didn't get the paperwork for their contract to the school on time (which they say they did by the way). The school on the first occasion told me they didn't pay them but they did pay me.

 

Because of this lack of contract from the agent they said they couldn't pay them

 

If someone isn't being straight with me. Why and what's it all to do with?

Edited June 26, 2018 by jaffas21

[Slip]

You have gone beyond my ken I'm afraid.  It sounds decidedly off to me; almost if someone is purposely tying to make a distinction between the school and the agent (the people you work for and the people who pay you.)  I will step back and wait for people with better knowledge of employment law to comment. 

[jaffas21]

7 minutes ago, Slip said:

You have gone beyond my ken I'm afraid.  It sounds decidedly off to me; almost if someone is purposely tying to make a distinction between the school and the agent (the people you work for and the people who pay you.)  I will step back and wait for people with better knowledge of employment law to comment. 

thanks for you help so far. its a funny situation, but i often do find myself in them

Edited June 26, 2018 by jaffas21

[Norrad]

The agency is messing you and the school around. If you are employed by the agency then they need to supply you with documents for your Non-B and work permit, bot the school.

 

Google the agency's name and see what comes up as naming and shaming is not normally allowed in Thailand, but there are many anonymous sites where people air grievances.

[jaffas21]

yeah i'm obviously not going to mention any names at all but suffice to say I already googled them and they are invisible apart from their adverts advertising for teachers. Yes I agree the agency made a mistake with the non b and they admitted as much that it was down to human error.

 

My question is .. contractually speaking if the school do the work permit then I am working for them. Not the agent so am I still employed by them. Because paperwork would appear to say no in that situation

 

 

[TerryLH]

If the school is paying them to provide a teacher, the money should not be coming out of your salary.

The school has contracted with you, apparently, to teach there.  Any money going to the agency is above what they pay you, so not out of your salary.

 

If someone gets you a WP to teach at the school, why would it matter who got it for you?

[jaffas21]

yeah i'm obviously not going to mention any names at all but suffice to say I already googled them and they are invisible apart from their adverts advertising for teachers. Yes I agree the agency made a mistake with the non b and they admitted as much that it was down to human error.

 

My question is .. contractually speaking if the school does the permit then I am working for them. Not the agent so am I still employed by them. Because paperwork would appear to say no in that situation. If the paperwork says no am I working for them and should the school be paying them

 

 

[jaffas21]

1 minute ago, TerryLH said:

If the school is paying them to provide a teacher, the money should not be coming out of your salary.

The school has contracted with you, apparently, to teach there.  Any money going to the agency is above what they pay you, so not out of your salary.

 

If someone gets you a WP to teach at the school, why would it matter who got it for you?

the money is definitely being deducted I am being paid 4000 less than the other teachers who are not with an agency. Thats all been confirmed although my contract with the school mentions the full amount. I haven't been given access to the schools one with the agency

Edited June 26, 2018 by jaffas21

[Norrad]

7 minutes ago, TerryLH said:

If the school is paying them to provide a teacher, the money should not be coming out of your salary.

The school has contracted with you, apparently, to teach there.  Any money going to the agency is above what they pay you, so not out of your salary.

 

If someone gets you a WP to teach at the school, why would it matter who got it for you?

I would compare the two contracts. He said he signed one with the school and that is being used now for his Non-B. Whatever salary is mentioned on that school contract is what he should be getting or he can approach the labour department. Whichever contract is being officially used for your paperwork is the one you should follow.

Quick tip on finding agent details and reviews. Many change company names every time they get bad press. Try searching directly for the agent's name (their personal name). I know one down South that has changed the company name 8 times.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Norrad

[jaffas21]

1 minute ago, Norrad said:

I would compare the two contracts. He said he signed one with the school and that is being used now for his Non-B. Whatever salary is mentioned on that school contract is what he should be getting or he can approach the labour department. Whichever contract is being officially used for your paperwork is the one you should be being followed.

Quick tip on finding agent details and reviews. Many change company names every time they get bad press. Try searching directly for the agent's name (their personal name). I know one down South that has changed the company name 8 times.

Mmm  but what about the one the school has with the agency does that have no legal status  probably that one mentions the deductions they will make from my salary

[TerryLH]

8 minutes ago, jaffas21 said:

the money is definitely being deducted I am being paid 4000 less than the other teachers who are not with an agency. Thats all been confirmed although my contract with the school mentions the full amount. I haven't been given access to the schools one with the agency

If that is the case, as Norrad suggested, contact the Labor Office.

 

[TerryLH]

2 minutes ago, jaffas21 said:

Mmm  but what about the one the school has with the agency does that have no legal status  probably that one mentions the deductions they will make from my salary

That's between the school and the agency, not your business.

If, however, they are using money they are supposed to be paying you, per your contract, that makes it your business.  The Labor Office is generally good with helping employees.

[jaffas21]

31 minutes ago, TerryLH said:

If that is the case, as Norrad suggested, contact the Labor Office.

 

So the law is, the amount that is on your contract that you received your non b from is the amount you should get paid? that is 100% correct?

 

Your also saying legally the agent cannot deduct money from the salary thats one your contract, but must be paid extra by the school?

 

Just so I'm clear on all these points

 

Why would the school be paying them from my salary if its against employment law? to save money? then my not just get rid of the agency and hire me direct.

Edited June 26, 2018 by jaffas21

[lemonjelly]

Who pays the salary into your account; school or agency?

[Norrad]

1 hour ago, jaffas21 said:

So the law is, the amount that is on your contract that you received your non b from is the amount you should get paid? that is 100% correct?

 

Your also saying legally the agent cannot deduct money from the salary thats one your contract, but must be paid extra by the school?

 

Just so I'm clear on all these points

 

Why would the school be paying them from my salary if its against employment law? to save money? then my not just get rid of the agency and hire me direct.

Correct because that's the amount you are going to get taxed on and it's the amount that gets listed in all your paperwork. Any amount the agency makes should be between the agency and the school and should never appear in any of your paperwork.

 

Try to imagine it like this. You are a builder and company A hires you to build a house for Company B. Company A charges Company B 1,000,000 Baht and pays you 100,000 Baht. Now if you signed both contracts (one for 100,000 Baht and one for 1,000,000 Baht) you are liable to be taxed on both of those amounts. Your only saving grace is that only one of them will be used for your official paperwork as a foreigner and that's the one you will be taxed on.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Norrad

[overherebc]

16 minutes ago, lemonjelly said:

Who pays the salary into your account; school or agency?

Probably the best question asked in this whole thread.

[DavisH]

3 hours ago, jaffas21 said:

the money is definitely being deducted I am being paid 4000 less than the other teachers who are not with an agency. Thats all been confirmed although my contract with the school mentions the full amount. I haven't been given access to the schools one with the agency

4K is a fair amount but I've known agencies to take 10K or more per month. You can imagine what those teachers thought when they found out they were on 10-15K less per month than non-agency teachers. Our school doesn't use an agency anymore, for various reasons. 

[FritsSikkink]

If your only contract is with the school and they pay your wages, sorted the visa and the work permit then you only have to deal with them.

They should pay you the amount which is in your contract after they deduct tax. The have to give you a pay slip which states the salary, tax and social security deducted.

They agency is not speaking the truth if they state you work for them if you don't have a signed contract with them.

 

[AlQaholic]

I would like to simplify the whole matter.

Your contract is with the school. The school has to pay a monthly salary according to this contract. Because your contract with the school, the school must arrange WP and visa extensions.

As I understand, there is no contract between you and the agency.

There may or may not be a contract between the school and the agency, whatever it is, it does not concern you.

Your employer, the school, is legally obligated to deduct your tax from your salary every month and pay it. They are also legally obligated to pay half of your social security every month, the other half being withdrawn from your salary monthly.

If you are not getting the salary stated in the contract, talk to the school.

Edited June 27, 2018 by AlQaholic

[jackdd]

So to understand it better:

Contract: With school

Non-B: Based on documents from school

Workpermit: From who?

Salary: Who sends you the money?

 

Edited June 27, 2018 by jackdd

[puchooay]

Generally speaking schools provide the paper work for visa and work permit. This is because the agency will not be able to "employ" you as they will not have the correct ratio of Thais to Foreigner staff. The contract you have with the agency is just to cover both of you. It shows that you will not just up and leave and they will not fire you for no reason. That said, the contract with the agency really is not worth the paper it is written on.

 

You will be getting paid less as you, as yet unconfirmed, will be getting paid by the agency and the salary stipulated in your contract with them will be the salary they will give you. As said before, the contract is not legally binding but do you want to make waves?

 

If things don't get sorted out soon and the school are happy with you then see if the school will hire you directly. They can then make the decision about how legal they feel their contract with your agent is.

[FritsSikkink]

26 minutes ago, puchooay said:

Generally speaking schools provide the paper work for visa and work permit. This is because the agency will not be able to "employ" you as they will not have the correct ratio of Thais to Foreigner staff. The contract you have with the agency is just to cover both of you. It shows that you will not just up and leave and they will not fire you for no reason. That said, the contract with the agency really is not worth the paper it is written on.

 

You will be getting paid less as you, as yet unconfirmed, will be getting paid by the agency and the salary stipulated in your contract with them will be the salary they will give you. As said before, the contract is not legally binding but do you want to make waves?

 

If things don't get sorted out soon and the school are happy with you then see if the school will hire you directly. They can then make the decision about how legal they feel their contract with your agent is.

He doesn't have a contract with the agency.

[Raymonddiaz]

I was hired in 2012 by an agency and i worked for a school in Nan. All my visa and work permit was handled by the school but i got paid by the agent. I signed a contract with the school only to get the paperwork done. Some agencies can't hire officially a foreign teacher so they use school names for that.

[overherebc]

Whoever is taking the tax and produces tax records will be responsible for your WP.

If you stay for a year and then your contract finishes whoever has been dealing with WP and produces your tax records will be responsible for paying your severence pay.

Even if the contract has a clause stating ' no severence will be paid by agreement' the labour office will not recognise it and will base their decision on one years tax records.

If you resign then of course you will be entitled to nothing.

[Horace]

If your employment contract is with the school and the school is paying you (has this question been answered yet?), I would think your employment relationship is with the school.  I don't see why you need to pay the agent anything or why the school can deduct amounts from your agreed salary to set our in your contract to pay the agent.  Your employment relationship with the school is governed by Thai law on the employment of teachers (which, I was just toldm varies a bit from the Labour Protection Act). Unless I am missing something here, this seems pretty straight forward.

[ThaiItAgain]

Reading the original post, there most certainly much confusion as to who is officially supplying it surrounding your B visa. There is mention of the school arranging your Non-B., that the agent did not do that for you (irrespective of what ever reason given). what about any work permits (if any) work permits usually, should you decide to  leave a school, the work permit is revoked owing that this/the permit is with that particular school and not transferrable to any other school, If it is transferable!? are you able to take / transfer the permit out of that province?. You explain it was the school that arranged your B visa, is that  for your entire stay anywhere in Thailand? when  it reaches its expire date? who offers you any renewal of the visa, (the school or the so called agent)?  what is the total cost of the b visa?, what is the cost if any for a permit to work or is that wrapped up in your visa? You're saying that 4000 per month is deducted from your salary and sent to whom?  when the total cost of the b visa (what ever figure that is) has been paid, does the 4000 stop being deducted? as it appears now that if you're to work with the school for 12 months your visa costs 48000 ie 4000baht x12, is that greater than the total cost for a Non-B visa and to work in a school? Only to be read as example purposes, the following information has no relationship to your visa, but note pricing comparison, (1900baht gets you a none residential 0 visa, renewable each year. 3000baht gets you a multiple re-entry for 12 months attached to the 0 visa)  note the cost of these, none of these = your Monthy deductions of 4000

 There is so much you truly need to know more and to get a clear understanding of your staying in Thailand conditions  and of your working permission and permits if any and payments