U.S. forces, British divers join search for boys missing in Thai cave

[Artisi]

3 minutes ago, Denim said:

Yes , that's correct.

 

However , even as we write , more experts are flying in from all over the planet to state the obvious. That nothing truly helpful can be done until it stops raining.

 

Several posters have implied that the Thais are incompetent and falangs are needed. Now they are here they have no miracle solutions to offer.

 

You cannot compete with nature. We have all seen what a monsoon rain looks like. In half an hour Bangkok can be flooded.

 

We are not talking about English rain which can go on for a week without filling a paper cup ( just enough to be depressing ). We are dealing with a monsoon rainy season.

 

All these experts are totally at the mercy of mother nature and until there is a significant break in the weather of three or four days nothing much will be achieved even of Donald Trump turns up to shake everyone's hands. 

 

This is just another case of shutting the door after the horse has bolted. The caves should be closed and caged off  for public access during the rainy season. They were not and hopefully , whatever the outcome of this emergency, in future , park officials will be stricter over access.

 

However, after living here a while, my observation has been that observance of safety procedures slips when they prove effective and nothing bad occurs.

 

 

 

The foreign expertise will be highly trained and experienced divers/ rescue people along with world class  equipment and its application and possibly better organisation skills based on previous rescues and training. 

Weather they can do nothing about. 

[Just Weird]

5 hours ago, Esso49 said:

  As for the "Thai Seals" well I would not rank them as anywhere near the competency levels of any other special forces,  let alone skilled in cave rescue.  

Thankfully your assessment of their abilities is meaningless, superfluous and unwanted.

[AsianAtHeart]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

There have been multiple reports that because of the local temperatures, hypothermia is not a significant risk. 

 

4 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

Although I`m no expert, sorry, don`t agree no matter what the reports say.

 

Temperatures can drop quite low during the night in Northern Thailand, plus the cold water and being deep underground out of reach of sunlight, I would say there is a significant chance of hypothermia. 

 

A little knowledge goes a long way toward understanding the experts on this one.  If the boys aren't wet, I would agree with them: hypothermia is not a significant risk.  Why is this so?  Because underground temperatures will remain stable year-round, and with no draft in the cave, it will remain a very moderate temperature.  The deeper they are underground, the warmer this temperature will be.  Grouped together, as they most likely are in the darkness, they will also share some body heat.  Aside from keeping dry, there is one additional caveat, however, and it is this: the boys are not getting caloric input to help them maintain their body temperatures.  With hypoglycemia, they may experience increased risk of hypothermia.

[Just Weird]

2 hours ago, Denim said:

Well , American and British experts are now on site. Their expertise has already proved invaluable.

 

So far their expertise hasn't proved to be any more valuable than the Thais teams'; they haven't come up with any new ideas.

[AsianAtHeart]

49 minutes ago, Denim said:

Several posters have implied that the Thais are incompetent and falangs are needed. Now they are here they have no miracle solutions to offer.

Those who are willing to look at the facts objectively will acknowledge that the foreign assistance has already contributed to the implementation of a new stratagem.  The Americans, trained to be independent thinkers and almost indisputably the hub of invention for the world, have suggested a new way to drain the water out of the cave by drilling a shaft into the cave from below.  Having a well-style pump to suck water out would facilitate its removal both more safely and more efficiently than has been possible so far, without requiring the lengthy and risky extension of power lines into the cave's interior.

[Just Weird]

1 hour ago, tifino said:

what concerns me is about the drilling...

 

 

 

what if, when they break through, that the drill itself breaches the very last air pocket, that may hold the surviving cavers' last hope

 

blub blub blub ?

The drill will leave a big hole behind it that's it had just bored it in order to "breach that very last air pocket"!  Don't you think air could get in there, perhaps?

[Just Weird]

1 hour ago, Media1 said:

As l said the US should have been called in after day 1. The ego of the Thai army over shadowed reality

Apart from increased numbers, what has the US done so far that the Thai rescuers haven't, then?

[Kieran00001]

3 hours ago, Esso49 said:

What is it you could not understand ? My point was that it is an assumption based on the fact there bikes were nearby.  If you park your car outside a toilet block does it mean you are inside ?  Also based on the fact that there is no factual evidence the group entered the cave then their lives could be endangered by the simple fact,  clearly beyond you,  that they could be elsewhere, nearby perhaps, in a life threatening position that is not being searched.

 

They also found their shoes and bags deep inside the cave, they are in there.

[AsianAtHeart]

1 minute ago, Just Weird said:

The drill will leave a big hole behind it that's it had just bored it in order to "breach that very last air pocket"!  Don't you think air could get in there, perhaps?

It seems folk are missing the point here.  I agree with tifino.  It was also a thought I had had.  If the water is held in check by the pressure of the air bubble within the cave's higher chamber(s), drilling a hole into that chamber will immediately release that pressure, allowing the water to fill in the void.  Think of it.  Suppose you were in a storm at sea in which your ship overturned.  You found yourself in a large air pocket in the hollow of the ship's hull.  How would you like some dufus to drill a 3" hole through the hull from the top in which to insert a camera and see what was inside?  When the air vanished through that hole, where would you be?

[Just Weird]

53 minutes ago, Artisi said:

The foreign expertise will be highly trained and experienced divers/ rescue people along with world class  equipment and its application and possibly better organisation skills based on previous rescues and training. 

Weather they can do nothing about. 

The Thai expertise is highly trained with experienced divers/rescuers along with world class equipment and it's application and no reason to suspect that their organization skills would be worse than any others.

[Kieran00001]

1 minute ago, AsianAtHeart said:

It seems folk are missing the point here.  I agree with tifino.  It was also a thought I had had.  If the water is held in check by the pressure of the air bubble within the cave's higher chamber(s), drilling a hole into that chamber will immediately release that pressure, allowing the water to fill in the void.  Think of it.  Suppose you were in a storm at sea in which your ship overturned.  You found yourself in a large air pocket in the hollow of the ship's hull.  How would you like some dufus to drill a 3" hole through the hull from the top in which to insert a camera and see what was inside?  When the air vanished through that hole, where would you be?

 

Wouldnt they have to be drilling from below the water level for that to happen?  A cave is not much like a boat as it is not floating.  I think you will find that dilling a hole from above the water level can allow the water to run out of the cave faster and so will lower the level.

[Russell17au]

2 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Wouldnt they have to be drilling from below the water level for that to happen?  A cave is not much like a boat as it is not floating.  I think you will find that dilling a hole from above the water level can allow the water to run out of the cave faster and so will lower the level.

Plus with the water running out of the cave it will create a vacuum which will draw the fresh air into the cave through the hole that has been drilled

[Just Weird]

5 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

It seems folk are missing the point here.  I agree with tifino.  It was also a thought I had had.  If the water is held in check by the pressure of the air bubble within the cave's higher chamber(s), drilling a hole into that chamber will immediately release that pressure, allowing the water to fill in the void.  Think of it.  Suppose you were in a storm at sea in which your ship overturned.  You found yourself in a large air pocket in the hollow of the ship's hull.  How would you like some dufus to drill a 3" hole through the hull from the top in which to insert a camera and see what was inside?  When the air vanished through that hole, where would you be?

These boys are not in an overturned ship's hull but there is absolutely no correlation between the two circumstances anyway.  

[Just Weird]

Physics clearly has never registered with a few people here. 

[AsianAtHeart]

1 minute ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Wouldnt they have to be drilling from below the water level for that to happen?  A cave is not much like a boat as it is not floating.  I think you will find that dilling a hole from above the water level can allow the water to run out of the cave faster and so will lower the level.

What makes the water want to exit the cave?  As I understand it, the cave is essentially a giant aquifer for water during the monsoons.  It becomes a corridor for water, an underground stream bed.  If the cave were all downhill, and the sports team were at its highest point, you would have a point.  But as I understand it, the water is entering the cave from above, in addition to in another place nearer its entrance, as indicated by the Dutch expert--an apparently new phenomenon (or at least it had not been noticed before).

 

The cave has points of both higher and lower elevation.  With water entering from a higher elevation, if each chamber had its own air vent at its ceiling, the entire cave would be soon filled with water.  We simply do not know exactly how much pressure, or from what elevation, that water is coming from.

[Denim]

20 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

So far their expertise hasn't proved to be any more valuable than the Thais teams'; they haven't come up with any new ideas.

 

I was being sarcastic , but given some posters faith in foreign experts , its understandable that people might be easily confused.

 

After all, we've already had people suggesting a well trained cocker spaniel could do so better.

 

A falang one of coarse.

 

[AsianAtHeart]

1 minute ago, Just Weird said:

Physics clearly has never registered with a few people here. 

That is definitely true.  Thankfully, the American team seems to be on top of this one with its suggestion of drilling from below. 

 

4 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

These boys are not in an overturned ship's hull but there is absolutely no correlation between the two circumstances anyway.  

The physics is nearly the same with the exception that the ship could move in the water (sink), whereas the cave would remain stationary and the water would move.  In both cases, if the air is pressurized by the surrounding water, a hole would release it and allow the water to fill the void.

 

Yes, that is an "if."  We simply do not know what the cave condition is.  If it is not under pressure, the water would not rise.  If the drill breaks through and a rush of air comes out, I hope someone has sense enough to put a cork in it until they can reverse the flow of air to put oxygen back inside.

[citybiker]

Expertise will depend on the specialist field of operations.

Thai expertise is on open water diving.

British expertise is cave diving, which is also very complex.

Thai authorities wouldn't request external international assistance unless they felt it was urgently required, as this is a matter of life or death I commend the Thai authorities for using any and every available resource.

The Thai expertise is highly trained with experienced divers/rescuers along with world class equipment and it's application and no reason to suspect that their organization skills would be worse than any others.

Sent from my SM-T555 using Tapatalk

[chickenslegs]

16 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

That is definitely true.  Thankfully, the American team seems to be on top of this one with its suggestion of drilling from below. 

 

The physics is nearly the same with the exception that the ship could move in the water (sink), whereas the cave would remain stationary and the water would move.  In both cases, if the air is pressurized by the surrounding water, a hole would release it and allow the water to fill the void.

 

Yes, that is an "if."  We simply do not know what the cave condition is.  If it is not under pressure, the water would not rise.  If the drill breaks through and a rush of air comes out, I hope someone has sense enough to put a cork in it until they can reverse the flow of air to put oxygen back inside.

We know that rescuers have already found several small "chimneys" which are connected to the main caves. There are probably dozens more.

 

Unfortunately none of them (so far) is large enough to allow access.

 

So, the cave is not a sealed system like the hull of an upturned boat.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2018 by chickenslegs

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

We know that rescuers have already found several small "chimneys" which are connected to the main caves. There are probably dozens more.

 

Unfortunately none of them (so far) is large enough to allow access.

 

So, the cave is not a sealed system like the hull of an upturned boat.

 

 

 

 

Yes, I read this before indicating breathing air (assuming in an area not flooded with water) will not be a problem as air is getting in. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by Jingthing

[AsianAtHeart]

1 minute ago, chickenslegs said:

We know that rescuers have already found several small "chimneys" which are connected to the main caves. There are probably dozens more.

 

Unfortunately none of them (so far) is large enough to allow access. So, the cave is not a sealed system like the hull of an upturned boat.

 

 

 

 

I've only heard of one of those that sounded like it would actually penetrate the cave--the one pointed out by the local villager.  The other two "chimneys" were both found to be dead-ends, according to the reports I've seen, and were considered only as starting points from which to drill a shaft further down, with the "chimney" giving them a bit of a head start.

[sanemax]

33 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Wouldnt they have to be drilling from below the water level for that to happen?  A cave is not much like a boat as it is not floating.  I think you will find that dilling a hole from above the water level can allow the water to run out of the cave faster and so will lower the level.

The cave isnt airtight , so drilling a hole above the water level would have no effect on the exiting water , especially as the waters being pumped out .

    What I understood is that they are drilling a hole through the cave wall , the hole being below the internal waterline and the water will naturally flow out the hole

[tingtongtourist]

32 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Well, everything is going to have to stop while AsianatHeart climbs in under the cave with his American friends who are so much better than anyone else in this type of thing and drills a hole up into the flooded sections of the cave to drain the water out quicker. Go for it AsianatHeart go and help you American buddies.

How bloody pathetic some people are.

 

I hate to point out but such a theory actually does paint a darker reality.

If they drilling fom below hoping to drain water, 

does it not means, for survival, theory suggests they must have to have walked uphill all time they are in the cave to have survived?

and i mean no disrespect but if they went that far in, i doubt they would have been walking in such an uphill gradient to long knowing Thais.

It also should be known, again no respect,  if not by google, how long people can last without water or food?

 

Yes many Thais like to eat every 3 hours but as i say to latsst Gf.. it not kill you to go 1-2 days without food, which of course she not believe!

[Bangkok Ape]

The amount of barstool engineering experts on here is embarrassing. Get a grip. Twelve little boys could be alive and scared senseless out in that cave and certain individuals are trying to point score with asinine comments and viewpoints.

 

No wonder sexpats get a bad name. 

[KiwiKiwi]

15 minutes ago, tingtongtourist said:

I hate to point out but such a theory actually does paint a darker reality.

If they drilling fom below hoping to drain water, 

does it not means, for survival, theory suggests they must have to have walked uphill all time they are in the cave to have survived?

and i mean no disrespect but if they went that far in, i doubt they would have been walking in such an uphill gradient to long knowing Thais.

It also should be known, again no respect,  if not by google, how long people can last without water or food?

 

Yes many Thais like to eat every 3 hours but as i say to latsst Gf.. it not kill you to go 1-2 days without food, which of course she not believe!

 

Rule of thumb:

 

without water - 3 days

without food - 3 weeks

 

Plus or minus. Passed on as received.

 

[cyberfarang]

7 hours ago, Nigeone said:

Just really sad that there's a reluctance to realise Thais are not very good at anything by authorities. Haven't the necessary skills or experience and the reluctance to have requested help earlier I hope doesn't cost lives. Many countries not least U.K. and USA would have provided instant help if requested . Hopefully it's all not to late and the expertise and logistics  now arriving can make the difference .

Simply not true.

 

The Thai team first had to evaluate the situation and look at all options in the hope of a quick rescue and when all means of a rescue seemed beyond their capabilities, it was only then did they decide to take drastic action and request assistance from abroad as a last resort. They followed the correct procedures to the book.

 

I commend the Thais on this rescue operation and they are doing all that is humanly possible to save those kids.

 

 

[VocalNeal]

As I see it there are two things to be done. 

 

Get to the trapped children with some odd supplies and some moral support. For this they use the two UK cave divers who are the most experienced guys on-site for actually getting through the water filled passages.

 

Get the water out of the cave or drill an escape hole a al Chilean mine rescue to get the trapped children out. Not sure who on site is the best bet for either or both of these two

[jenny2017]

 

    We've got high tech everywhere. But do we really know what creatures live in the deep sea? Even the best equipment doesn't seem to be very useful here.

 

My thoughts are with the missing kids and their relatives. It's been quite long now.

[Denim]

Interesting video of the area in more normal times. The drone footage at the end clearly shows the difficult of the terrain.

 

 

 

A screen shot from the video :

 

 

 

The sign says  " Danger ! No entry before you receive permission !

Edited June 29, 2018 by Denim

[Scott]

Nonsensical, bickering, troll posts and replies removed.   Continue at your own peril.