Plant Based Nutrition and Fasting

[Antonymous]

3 hours ago, NancyL said:

Right, she has the gender-neutral Centrum Silver, but not the specific formula for men, which is the label I posted, or the one for women, which is high in calcium.  When I run out of the men's or women's formula that I have shipped from the U.S., I use the gender-neutral version from Peera with an extra B-12 capsule for Hubby and calcium tablet for me.

Right idea Nancy, but I have read bad things about Centrum products. Aware of defamation, I won't say any more except it concerns absorption.

 

You may like to check out 'Alive! Once Daily Men's 50+' as a potentially better alternative for hubby. Alive! have a women's formula too. Men's version contains very high concentrations of B vits. I use this one and get it from iHerb dot com. If you order online from iHerb be sure to order under $46 total (per shipment) so that it won't get stopped by Thai Customs en route. Shipping is free from iHerb to Thailand if you purchase close to that sum. If you order much less there is a very small shipping charge. Elect for the free shipping, not courier delivery. It will arrive in 12 days (typically).

[Bonobojt]

2 hours ago, Tongjaw said:

Thank you for starting this excellent thread, so many informative comments too. I did try the vegan diet but found it too difficult to stick to as I travel overseas a lot for work. We do however have more of a vegetarian style diet but do have the odd fish, pork and eggs at times. We live around the Udon Thani and Khon Kaen area. I found one vegetarian restaurant in Khon Kaen which we enjoy when in the city. My wife prefers to cook at home as we grow most of our veggies there. We have our own chickens so we know our eggs are fresh. We excerise 5 times a week, jogging, walking and gym which helps us lead a healthy lifestyle too. 

If anyone knows of any vegetarian, vegan restaurants in Udon Thani or Khon Kaen I would appreciate if they could share the locations. 

check it this website called HappyCow, type in the city you live in and it will show you all vegan, vegetarian restaurants, or restaurants that have vegetarian options.

https://www.happycow.net

[dontoearth]

56 minutes ago, Antonymous said:

Right idea Nancy, but I have read bad things about Centrum products. Aware of defamation, I won't say any more except it concerns absorption.

      There are some sites here and there that rate vitamin and supplement absorption.  It does turn out a lot of the big name brands with the largest amount of vitamins and supplements in them simple don't absorb in the body very well.  I think the test is a warm water overnight to see how much of the pill breaks up so it gives you some idea of how much of the pill is going to be absorbed inside your digestive system.

[Kohsamida]

4 hours ago, Dionigi said:

There is very little science based investigation into fasting and what there is has generally been carried out on animals...

Actually there has been some pretty fascinating science-based research into fasting in the last few years; both direct and indirect, and involving humans, not just animals.  Two scientists come to mind in this regard.  One is Valter Longo, a biogerontologist and cell biologist at the University of Southern California, and another is the 2016 Nobel Prize winner in Physiology or Medicine, Yoshinori Ohsumi.  

 

Longo is known for his studies on the role of fasting and nutrient response genes on cellular protection aging and diseases and for proposing that longevity is regulated by similar genes and intra-cellular mechanisms (eukaryotes).

 

Ohsumi's work focuses entirely on "autophagy" (the process that cells use to destroy and recycle cellular components).  Although his studies are not directly related to fasting, fasting is one of the primary mechanisms that activates autophagy. 

 

Many people think of fasting as a means to rid the body of environmental toxins.  Whether this is true or not, I don't really know. It kind of makes sense since you generally will loose body fat through prolonged fasting and many toxins are fat soluble.  However, fasting has an effect that goes way beyond environmental detoxing, and that is autophagy.

 

Simply stated, autophagy is the biological mechanism by which toxic proteins are broken down into small amino acids to avoid a toxic buildup of abnormally large and detrimental proteins in the brain.  These are the very  the ones thought to be the common denominator in neurodegenerative diseases such as Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s and many forms of cancer.    The word autophagy is derived from Greek words “auto” meaning self and “phagy” meaning eating.  

 

Autophagy is an ongoing process (whether or not you are fasting) that maintains homeostasis or normal functioning by protein degradation and turnover of the destroyed cell organelles for new cell formation.  Fasting accelerates and intensifies this process.

 

The significance of autophagy for those who fast for health reasons has to do with fasting's perceived detrimental effect on muscles.  Most people are under the impression that you "burn" a significant amount of muscle during fasting.  This is actually not true.  It's true that your body must burn protein for fuel in the absence of carbohydrates during  the initial stages of a fast until ketosis occurs, but autophagy assures that the bulk of consumed protein is from damaged intracellular RNA, not essential muscle.  This all seems to happen within a 72 hour window, more or less, until ketosis can kick in and begin supplying the required fuel to maintain the body.

 

The process works by sequestering unwanted proteins into pipelines called “autophagosomes.” Then they dump those proteins into a part of the cell called a “lysosome,” where they are recycled. Ohsumi's research painstakingly proved this and he was awarded the Nobel Prize for its' far-reaching implications.

 

Of course, the focus of the research is not on fasting but rather on the beneficial aspects of autophagy.  When this process doesn’t work properly, harmful proteins can accumulate. The damaged intracellular RNA are the ones thought to be the common denominator in neurodegenerative diseases such as Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s and many forms of cancer.  

 

What fasting can do is sort of jump-start the process.  In essence, fasting induced autophagy is sort of a "spring house cleaning" process, and the beneficial aspects of it occur in a very short time-frame (i.e.: 72 hour of water fasting).

 

I am not saying that fasting is a cure-all for diseases or should be entered into lightly as some online hucksters and self-proclaimed health gurus might suggest.  Fasting and autophagy are potent and powerful mechanisms and have the potential to go well beyond their beneficial aspects and do great harm.  In other words, they are not some magic bullets.  I simply find the current research associated with fasting to be most fascinating.  

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Kohsamida]

57 minutes ago, Bonobojt said:

check it this website called HappyCow, type in the city you live in and it will show you all vegan, vegetarian restaurants, or restaurants that have vegetarian options.

https://www.happycow.net

Totally agree; it's like Zagat for Vegans ?

 

[NancyL]

54 minutes ago, dontoearth said:

      There are some sites here and there that rate vitamin and supplement absorption.  It does turn out a lot of the big name brands with the largest amount of vitamins and supplements in them simple don't absorb in the body very well.  I think the test is a warm water overnight to see how much of the pill breaks up so it gives you some idea of how much of the pill is going to be absorbed inside your digestive system.

The liquid in your gut isn't water.  You could run the same overnight water "test" with most foodstuffs and conclude that you'd starve to death if you ate them.

[dontoearth]

1 hour ago, NancyL said:

The liquid in your gut isn't water.  You could run the same overnight water "test" with most foodstuffs and conclude that you'd starve to death if you ate them.

      I agree you have enzymes and bacteria but most food would indeed start to breakdown and dissolve in water.  A more sophisticated test would be blood draws but I don't think I have ever seen any of those.

 

[Kohsamida]

6 hours ago, dontoearth said:

      Jason Fong has a lot of data on fasting as he is a doctor at Toronto General Hospital.  When he proposed fasting to stop Type II diabetes in patients that were so ill they were having kidney failure the hospital demanded that he hospitalize the patients for safety reasons.  So he has blood panels urine samples daily chart visits.  It is in his book.

        It sounds like you are doing something close to the Every other day diet plan.  The inventor of the every other day diet plan is in the middle of a 3 year National Science Foundation Study on the technique so lots of good science coming.   Krista Varady, Ph.D. and Bill Gottlieb, CHC  detail in their book that this is a revolutionary, science-proven, easy-to-follow diet.

        All of this research is very recent and the investigators have done presentations lots of good youtube presentations presented before professional societies and books but not much in the big science journals.  There is quite a controversy now that the big medical journals and health journals are really schills for big pharma and don't want lifestyle publications unless the results are very poor.  Many refuse vitamins and diet research entirely.

         I did read Fong's book.  I didn't read Varady's book.  And of course there is Michael Mosley of the 5-2 with books and presentations who is a doctor and medical researcher for the BBC.

Dr. Fong is great!  He's incredibly knowledgable about diabetes and fasting, and has a way of explaining complex subjects in a way anyone can understand and appreciate, and his analogies that allow him to do that are often funny as hell!

[TravelerEastWest]

On 6/29/2018 at 3:26 PM, Kohsamida said:

Personally, speaking at first I tried to be strictly plant-based with absolutely no animal proteins, dairy, oil, salt, sugar, etc,  but it became obvious pretty quickly to me that it was not going to work that way if I wanted to enjoy what I was eating or have any sort of social life.  Fact is, I love to eat and I enjoy the social aspects of it as well.

 

I'm comfortable with following basic principals of a plant-based lifestyle with a little flexibility thrown in to meet an occasion.  I don't think you need to be 100% plant-based for it to still give you a healthy lifestyle.  My mantra is simply to never take anything to extremes.

 

In that light, I think there are plenty of great places here in Chiang Mai to eat out, and many of them will alter a recipe for you if you ask.

 

Strictly plant based works best for my health and also for my spirtual outlook so I am not giving up anything - just the opposite for many reasons I would never consider any diet other than a plant based one.

 

I have children and dogs and a farm and love a simple lifestyle. Sometimes I go into town for errands and would love a restaurant that works for me but have found none in Chiang Mai. So I normally bring lunch in a box.

 

Asking a restauramt to change what they do tends to not work out over time as sometimes mistakes will happen and I would not be comfortable with that.

 

I believe strongly in extremes if they are good ones... 

 

Dr Fong is interesting but a bit arrogant and rude at times. I think a lot of what he says is corretc but not all his conclusions.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by TravelerEastWest

[Kohsamida]

27 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

 

Strictly plant based works best for my health and also for my spirtual outlook so I am not giving up anything - just the opposite for many reasons I would never consider any diet other than a plant based one.

 

I have children and dogs and a farm and love a simple lifestyle. Sometimes I go into town for errands and would love a restaurant that works for me but have found none in Chiang Mai. So I normally bring lunch in a box.

 

Asking a restauramt to change what they do tends to not work out over time as sometimes mistakes will happen and I would not be comfortable with that.

 

I believe strongly in extremes if they are good ones... 

 

 

It's good to hear that a plant-based lifestyle works so well for you.  Everybody is unique so the best approach will always be the one that works best for you specifically.  It seems that people who embrace a plant-based lifestyle and stick with it are the ones who have the patience to find their own path.  Congratulations ?

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Bonobojt]

if anyone is planning on going plant based/vegan, just thought I'd mention something, something that I needed to remind myself recently

 

Vitamin B12 -  vegans must supplement with b12, you can find b12 supplements, or buy plant based milks and cereals with added b12 to them, apparently b12 deficiency isn't just a vegan issue, vegetarians and meat eater's can also be low on b12, but vegans are at most risk.

 

Iodine - also need to make sure you are getting Iodine in your diet, in the UK, most people get Iodine from diary, so vegans need to use salt with added Iodine or eat certain seaweeds that contain Iodine. 

 

the rest of the vitamins and minerals you should be able to get if you are eating a variety of healthy whole plant foods such as wholegrains, fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, beans, tofu etc..

 

be careful taking a multi vitamin supplement, overdosing on certain vitamins can be toxic/dangerous, I can send people links to videos, websites etc if they need any info.

 

check out  https://veganhealth.org 

[TravelerEastWest]

11 hours ago, Bonobojt said:

if anyone is planning on going plant based/vegan, just thought I'd mention something, something that I needed to remind myself recently

 

Vitamin B12 -  vegans must supplement with b12, you can find b12 supplements, or buy plant based milks and cereals with added b12 to them, apparently b12 deficiency isn't just a vegan issue, vegetarians and meat eater's can also be low on b12, but vegans are at most risk.

 

Iodine - also need to make sure you are getting Iodine in your diet, in the UK, most people get Iodine from diary, so vegans need to use salt with added Iodine or eat certain seaweeds that contain Iodine. 

 

the rest of the vitamins and minerals you should be able to get if you are eating a variety of healthy whole plant foods such as wholegrains, fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, beans, tofu etc..

 

be careful taking a multi vitamin supplement, overdosing on certain vitamins can be toxic/dangerous, I can send people links to videos, websites etc if they need any info.

 

check out  https://veganhealth.org 

Good advice - thank you.

 

Vitamin B-12 if I remember correctly is needed in small amounts and lasts a long time in the body so an occasional supplement is all you need.

 

I am not sure but there may be a few things such as tempeh and some seaweeds and algae which have B-12.

 

Recently I checked my B-12 level and it was very good - but in addition to being a vegan I take a multivitamin which has around 100% of my daily needs plus/minus on a few items.

 

I wonder about iodine as I have heard this before that we ned to be careful and get enough...

[TravelerEastWest]

On 6/30/2018 at 4:50 PM, Kohsamida said:

It's good to hear that a plant-based lifestyle works so well for you.  Everybody is unique so the best approach will always be the one that works best for you specifically.  It seems that people who embrace a plant-based lifestyle and stick with it are the ones who have the patience to find their own path.  Congratulations ?

 

Thank you for your kind words.

 

In a very general way I agree with you that we are all unique - but very softly, gently and politely I want to say that I doubt that anyone actually needs meat or that it is healthy to eat. If you eat very little meat and all is else is well than it is not a big issue.

 

In my case I am not "sticking" with a plant based diet - instead it is what I prefer and what comes naturally since I was a boy.  No patience or special effort is needed.

 

Well finding a restaurant does require special effort... I imagine that somewhere like California might have this type of restaurant and a very few places here and there.

 

I understand that the use of the word "sticking" may just be a matter of semantics.

[Kohsamida]

1 hour ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Thank you for your kind words.

 

In a very general way I agree with you that we are all unique - but very softly, gently and politely I want to say that I doubt that anyone actually needs meat or that it is healthy to eat. If you eat very little meat and all is else is well than it is not a big issue.

 

In my case I am not "sticking" with a plant based diet - instead it is what I prefer and what comes naturally since I was a boy.  No patience or special effort is needed.

 

Well finding a restaurant does require special effort... I imagine that somewhere like California might have this type of restaurant and a very few places here and there.

 

I understand that the use of the word "sticking" may just be a matter of semantics.

“Sticking” might not have been the best word to use, but in my case and with many other people, a healthy lifestyle is something they had to consciously select for themselves.  In the modern world it can be a very difficult thing to commit to sometimes.  

 

First, there are social pressures to contend.  For most people, eating is not just a way to fuel the body, but just as importantly, it is a richly rewarding way to interact with friends and family.  If they are not Vegan-oriented, it can sometimes be awkward and uncomfortable for all concerned to be restrictive in what you will or will not eat.

 

There are also pressures related to work schedules and travel which I personally must deal with that can often make it quite difficult to eat healthy sometimes.

 

I’m a firm believer in something called the “Pereto Principal”, or the 80/20 rule.  Simply put, it says that 80% of the results come from 20% of the efforts.  Based on this, I’m comfortable knowing that I don’t have to be 100% with what I eat in order to maintain a healthy lifestyle.

 

Another factor that comes into play are “cravings” for foods that might not be considered to be good for you.  Sometimes those cravings can be pretty intense, and I’ll give in to them.  It’s not because I’m weak-willed.  I give in to them because sometimes I think the body knows what it needs more than I do.  

 

What I mean is that our knowledge of how the body works is not very evolved, however the body’s instincts are, and sometimes it might just be the wisest thing to give in to them.

 

Bottom line for me, none of us are going to live forever.  We’re all gonna die; it’s just a matter of when.  My goal as far as nutrition goes is to live life to its fullest without depriving myself too much of the things that make it worth living.  I don't think there is a right or wrong way to do this.  it's up to the individual to decide what's best for them.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Kohsamida

[MalandLee]

Hi Mate, thanks for the thread. It has been interesting reading the comments.

 

I see little value in offering "solutions" as often they tend to be subjective.

 

• I FULLY support your endorsement of Dr. Michael Greger. He stands out because EVERYTHING he states is backed by REAL science. Plus he will modify earlier statements, as the science evolves.
• "Knives over Forks" is a good movie - you need to purchase, as no one would ever recommend Pirate Bay.
• Joe Cross - "Fat sick & nearly dead" - on youtube - great for the juicers out there.
• There are lots more of course

 

A little about me/us: We are 10 year VEGAN. We only eat plant based. 

We live in Thailand for anything up to a year or so and Australia, for anything up to 18 months or so.

 

Have had over 200 people  in our home  - In Thailand we do a FREE vegan lunch for anything up to eight people. My wife is an expert cook (Professional) and concocts some amazing dishes. We have a fantastic social life due to our vegan-ism.

 

Lots more I could say... But Hope you find what is best for. animals, the planet, and YOU.

 

Hope you find health & peace in yourself

Warm Regards

Mal

 

[Bonobojt]

if any meat eaters are reading this topic and are curious about trying a plant based diet for health reasons or ethical reasons or both, highly recommend watching this video

 

 

 

[Kohsamida]

1 hour ago, MalandLee said:

Hi Mate, thanks for the thread. It has been interesting reading the comments.

 

I see little value in offering "solutions" as often they tend to be subjective.

 

• I FULLY support your endorsement of Dr. Michael Greger. He stands out because EVERYTHING he states is backed by REAL science. Plus he will modify earlier statements, as the science evolves.
• "Knives over Forks" is a good movie - you need to purchase, as no one would ever recommend Pirate Bay.
• Joe Cross - "Fat sick & nearly dead" - on youtube - great for the juicers out there.
• There are lots more of course

 

A little about me/us: We are 10 year VEGAN. We only eat plant based. 

We live in Thailand for anything up to a year or so and Australia, for anything up to 18 months or so.

 

Have had over 200 people  in our home  - In Thailand we do a FREE vegan lunch for anything up to eight people. My wife is an expert cook (Professional) and concocts some amazing dishes. We have a fantastic social life due to our vegan-ism.

 

Lots more I could say... But Hope you find what is best for. animals, the planet, and YOU.

 

Hope you find health & peace in yourself

Warm Regards

Mal

 

Thanks for your post.  I started this thread not only to share what I know and my own views but to learn from others as well since I am hardly an expert but want to become more knowledgeable, so I appreciate your reply!   

 

I couldn't agree more with what you say for the most part.  Chiang Mai is also a place where there's a strong Vegan social scene.  I didn't mean to infer that you can't enjoy social interaction as a Vegan; only saying there are many situations where a little flexibility in what you eat can be a good thing at times.

 

The film, "Knives over Forks",  is actually what got me interested in plant-based eating in the first place.  It was a good starting point for me.  I went out and bought a juicer after seeing "Fat, Sick & Nearly dead.

 

Please don't take this the wrong way.  While FS&N got me interested in the benefits of juicing, I'm not a real big fan of Joe Cross at all.  I really dislike many of his claims and so-called "facts" regarding weight loss and detoxification.  For the most part almost none of it is science-based, and much of it is simply misleading and makes it more confusing for people searching for REAL solutions to health . 

 

There's no question that juicing has a lot of benefits but it is not the "magic bullet" that Joe Cross is advocating.  Any weight loss that Cross experienced was only the result of extreme caloric restriction and that in itself is not a good thing to be doing or promoting to others. 

 

Caloric restriction has been scientifically proven to be ineffective in long term weight loss for obese people. Eating a well-rounded plant-based diet in a way that is sustainable in the long-term is the only scientifically proven way that I know of that effectively addresses obesity for most people.  And it doesn't require buying a costly juicer, expensive supplements, "reboot" packages, or other silly things that he sells on his website.

 

Sorry for the rant but I feel strongly about those who mislead the public with such well-orchestrated marketing nonsense when it's obvious that their only motive is to make a buck.  It especially irks me when it's at the expense of other people finding a proper path to a healthy lifestyle.

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Bonobojt]

7 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Good advice - thank you.

 

Vitamin B-12 if I remember correctly is needed in small amounts and lasts a long time in the body so an occasional supplement is all you need.

 

I am not sure but there may be a few things such as tempeh and some seaweeds and algae which have B-12.

 

Recently I checked my B-12 level and it was very good - but in addition to being a vegan I take a multivitamin which has around 100% of my daily needs plus/minus on a few items.

 

I wonder about iodine as I have heard this before that we ned to be careful and get enough...

it can take a while to become b12 deficient, but Dr Micheal Greger says we must supplement so I'll listen to him since he's doctor and he has looked at the scientific studies on it, he says 250mcg a day or 2,500 mcg once a week, he also recommends the Cyanocobalamin form of b12 since its the most studied. I don't think you can overdose on b12 but you don't need to take huge amounts if your not b12 deficient, 250 to 500 mcg a day is enough, your body only absorbs a tiny amount of it and you pee out the rest.

 

yeah I completely forgot about Iodine recently, I had to go out and buy some salt with added Iodine yesterday, Iodine can be found in Plant foods but it depends on the soil and where its grown, if its grown near the ocean it may have Iodine in it, its a good idea to make sure your getting enough, cheapest option is salt is added Iodine, or you may be able to find sea salt mixed with kelp (seaweed) which will give you iodine, or you can just buy some Nulse or other kind of seaweed, make sure you buy one that has iodine, some seaweeds like Nori don't have it.

 

I forgot to mention Omega 3s, I think its important to get this into your diet too, if your not eating fresh fish. Chia Seeds, Walnuts, Flax seeds, Hemp seed oil etc.. or you can take a algae based DHA and EPA suplement.     

[TravelerEastWest]

"Another factor that comes into play are “cravings” for foods that might not be considered to be good for you.  Sometimes those cravings can be pretty intense, and I’ll give in to them.  It’s not because I’m weak-willed.  I give in to them because sometimes I think the body knows what it needs more than I do.  

 

What I mean is that our knowledge of how the body works is not very evolved, however the body’s instincts are, and sometimes it might just be the wisest thing to give in to them.

 

Bottom line for me, none of us are going to live forever.  We’re all gonna die; it’s just a matter of when.  My goal as far as nutrition goes is to live life to its fullest without depriving myself too much of the things that make it worth living.  I don't think there is a right or wrong way to do this.  it's up to the individual to decide what's best for them."

 

I agree with almost everything that you write (which is a good thing - smiling).

 

But we will have to agree to disagree about (what I understand to be ) some of your ideas:

 

1) Cravings - mostly are they are just that cravings that are perhaps physical and perhaps in the mind but not good for you - example often many people get cravings for proccesed junk food (fill in the blanks for what that might be - sodas chips etc just to make a point..) I strongly doubt that it is in your best interests to give in to them. to eb fair if a family member spends housr baking you a chocolate cake - it may be best to eat a slice but that is an extreme example and I don't like emotional blackmail.

 

2) "I don't think there is a right or wrong way to do this.  it's up to the individual to decide what's best for them."

An individual has to some extent the right to do what they like - no doubt - but it is not always best. I do think there are some absolutes in life - just my way of thinging - I accept taht many don't agree.

 

Another extreme example smoking - it is clear now that it causes cancer and huge costs to our economy directly and indirectly.

 

Drinking and driving - huge social costs and so on... granted these are extreme examples to make a point.

 

3) Currently science is pointing towards a plant based diet but many smart people are no convinced - yet. Perhaps in 60 years from now people will think about eating meat the same way they think about smoking now.

 

4) If you need to travel for work - that is a real concern. I do not have a good answer for this - but we can always do our best ( and I am sure that you do)  - bring a rice cooker with us and so on... Yes, not fun and time consuming I understand - but this is why I take my lunch with me now. Would love to find a plant based restauraunt with no oil, salt or sugar nearby but have not found even one.

[TravelerEastWest]

8 minutes ago, Bonobojt said:

it can take a while to become b12 deficient, but Dr Micheal Greger says we must supplement so I'll listen to him since he's doctor and he has looked at the scientific studies on it, he says 250mcg a day or 2,500 mcg once a week, he also recommends the Cyanocobalamin form of b12 since its the most studied. I don't think you can overdose on b12 but you don't need to take huge amounts if your not b12 deficient, 250 to 500 mcg a day is enough, your body only absorbs a tiny amount of it and you pee out the rest.

 

yeah I completely forgot about Iodine recently, I had to go out and buy some salt with added Iodine yesterday, Iodine can be found in Plant foods but it depends on the soil and where its grown, if its grown near the ocean it may have Iodine in it, its a good idea to make sure your getting enough, cheapest option is salt is added Iodine, or you may be able to find sea salt mixed with kelp (seaweed) which will give you iodine, or you can just buy some Nulse or other kind of seaweed, make sure you buy one that has iodine, some seaweeds like Nori don't have it.

 

I forgot to mention Omega 3s, I think its important to get this into your diet too, if your not eating fresh fish. Chia Seeds, Walnuts, Flax seeds, Hemp seed oil etc.. or you can take a algae based DHA and EPA suplement.     

Interesting are sure that excess Vit B-12 is lost?

 

I have never heard that before. I though taht it wa sstoredf for years in the body.

 

"Unlike most other vitamins, B₁₂ is stored in substantial amounts, mainly in the liver, until it is needed by the body. If a person stops consuming the vitamin, the body’s stores of this vitamin usually take about 3 to 5 years to exhaust."  https://www.msdmanuals.com/home/disorders-of-nutrition/vitamins/vitamin-b-12

 

I wonder if I could add iodine to my garden soil?

[Kohsamida]

36 minutes ago, Bonobojt said:

it can take a while to become b12 deficient, but Dr Micheal Greger says we must supplement so I'll listen to him since he's doctor and he has looked at the scientific studies on it, he says 250mcg a day or 2,500 mcg once a week, he also recommends the Cyanocobalamin form of b12 since its the most studied. I don't think you can overdose on b12 but you don't need to take huge amounts if your not b12 deficient, 250 to 500 mcg a day is enough, your body only absorbs a tiny amount of it and you pee out the rest.

 

yeah I completely forgot about Iodine recently, I had to go out and buy some salt with added Iodine yesterday, Iodine can be found in Plant foods but it depends on the soil and where its grown, if its grown near the ocean it may have Iodine in it, its a good idea to make sure your getting enough, cheapest option is salt is added Iodine, or you may be able to find sea salt mixed with kelp (seaweed) which will give you iodine, or you can just buy some Nulse or other kind of seaweed, make sure you buy one that has iodine, some seaweeds like Nori don't have it.

 

I forgot to mention Omega 3s, I think its important to get this into your diet too, if your not eating fresh fish. Chia Seeds, Walnuts, Flax seeds, Hemp seed oil etc.. or you can take a algae based DHA and EPA suplement.     

From what I've learned, your information is spot on about B12.  I also get a lot of my info from Greger, but I've also spoken with lots of Vegan athletes here in Chiang Mai who, almost without exception supplement with B12.  However, many of them feel that the Methylcobalamin form is better, and for a pretty compelling reason.

 

The main difference between them is that cyanocobalamin is not naturally occurring and can only be made in a laboratory. Since cyanocobalamin contains cyanide, a substance that is not intended to be used in the body, cyanocobalamin must be broken down and converted. The body converts cyanocobalamin into methylcobalamin by removing the cyanide donor molecule and attaching a methyl donor. This must be done before the compound can be used as vitamin B12 by the body.  Don't let the word "cyanide" freak you out.  The body can handle the conversion just fine ?

 

However, cyanocobalamin can have an adverse effect on one’s health because it's using methyl compounds that are also needed for other purposes. Thus, the body unnecessarily uses energy and resources converting cyanocobalamin into a biologically useful form of vitamin B12.

 

Methylcobalamin on the other hand does not need to be converted before it can be used. That is because methylcobalamin is the purer, naturally occurring form of vitamin B12. Methylcobalamin can be absorbed and used by the body immediately.

 

I use the Methylcobalamin form.  For those who live in Chiang Mai it is available under the brand name Merabin in 500mcg capsules and reasonably priced.  It is also available in injectable form under the brand name Methycobal.  Both are stocked at Peera Pharmacy.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Bonobojt]

16 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Interesting are sure that excess Vit B-12 is lost?

 

I have never heard that before. I though taht it wa sstoredf for years in the body.

 

"Unlike most other vitamins, B₁₂ is stored in substantial amounts, mainly in the liver, until it is needed by the body. If a person stops consuming the vitamin, the body’s stores of this vitamin usually take about 3 to 5 years to exhaust."  https://www.msdmanuals.com/home/disorders-of-nutrition/vitamins/vitamin-b-12

 

I wonder if I could add iodine to my garden soil?

yes b12 takes years to get low and deficient, but everyone is different, some people might get low in 1 year, some might be low in 5 years, our gut bacteria health isn't all the same, so its best to supplement, that's just my opinion, I wouldn't risk it because b12 deficiency can be very serious. Yes I'm sure I've heard Dr Micheal Greger say in an interview that the b12 you take in pill form, you absorb a tiny amount which is enough for your body, then the rest is pee'd out as its a water soluble vitamin.   

[MalandLee]

2 hours ago, Kohsamida said:

Thanks for your post.  I started this thread not only to share what I know and my own views but to learn from others as well since I am hardly an expert but want to become more knowledgeable, so I appreciate your reply!   

 

I couldn't agree more with what you say for the most part.  Chiang Mai is also a place where there's a strong Vegan social scene.  I didn't mean to infer that you can't enjoy social interaction as a Vegan; only saying there are many situations where a little flexibility in what you eat can be a good thing at times.

 

The film, "Knives over Forks",  is actually what got me interested in plant-based eating in the first place.  It was a good starting point for me.  I went out and bought a juicer after seeing "Fat, Sick & Nearly dead.

 

Please don't take this the wrong way.  While FS&N got me interested in the benefits of juicing, I'm not a real big fan of Joe Cross at all.  I really dislike many of his claims and so-called "facts" regarding weight loss and detoxification.  For the most part almost none of it is science-based, and much of it is simply misleading and makes it more confusing for people searching for REAL solutions to health . 

 

There's no question that juicing has a lot of benefits but it is not the "magic bullet" that Joe Cross is advocating.  Any weight loss that Cross experienced was only the result of extreme caloric restriction and that in itself is not a good thing to be doing or promoting to others. 

 

Caloric restriction has been scientifically proven to be ineffective in long term weight loss for obese people. Eating a well-rounded plant-based diet in a way that is sustainable in the long-term is the only scientifically proven way that I know of that effectively addresses obesity for most people.  And it doesn't require buying a costly juicer, expensive supplements, "reboot" packages, or other silly things that he sells on his website.

 

Sorry for the rant but I feel strongly about those who mislead the public with such well-orchestrated marketing nonsense when it's obvious that their only motive is to make a buck.  It especially irks me when it's at the expense of other people finding a proper path to a healthy lifestyle.

 

No need to be sorry mate, you are correct - on the points you made - however, many things become catalysts for many people. Juicing (I happen to know) got many started and in turn saved their lives. He had a good way of marketing (Better than me) hence got the "plant" message out there. - Did not help Phil Staples a lot - sadly.

 

Dr Greger 

methylcobalamin vs cyanocobalamin 

"It’s like the whole coral calcium scam. Calcium is cheap as chalk–in fact it is chalk! So how are you going to bilk people out of lots of money? You sell some sort of special calcium. Same with B12 supplements.

B12 is so cheap to produce that supplement manufacturers try to come up with all sorts of fancy ways to “add value” to products so they can charge $30 a bottle. Unless you’re a smoker, have kidney failure, or base your diet around cassava root, cyanocobalamin should be fine. That’s what I take!"

SOURCE: https://nutritionfacts.org/questions/which-type-of-b12-is-best/

 

I take 1000 mcg a week - annual blood test(s) show my levels to be on the upper side of normal.

 

It is healthy to differ, but, fundamentally I agree with a lot of what you have written on this thread. 

 

Take care

Mal

 

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by MalandLee

[Bonobojt]

10 minutes ago, Kohsamida said:

From what I've learned, your information is spot on.  I also get a lot of my info from Greger, but I've also spoken with lots of Vegan athletes here in Chiang Mai who, almost without exception supplement with B12 BUT say that the Methylcobalamin form is better.

 

For anybody curious, the main difference between them is that cyanocobalamin is not naturally occurring and can only be made in a laboratory. Since cyanocobalamin contains cyanide, a substance that is not intended to be used in the body, cyanocobalamin must be broken down and converted. The body converts cyanocobalamin into methylcobalamin by removing the cyanide donor molecule and attaching a methyl donor. This must be done before the compound can be used as vitamin B12 by the body.  Don't let the word "cyanide" freak you out.  The body can handle the conversion just fine ?

 

However, cyanocobalamin can have an adverse effect on one’s health because it's using methyl compounds that are also needed for other purposes. Thus, the body unnecessarily uses energy and resources converting cyanocobalamin into a biologically useful form of vitamin B12.

 

Methylcobalamin on the other hand does not need to be converted before it can be used. That is because methylcobalamin is the purer, naturally occurring form of vitamin B12. Methylcobalamin can be absorbed and used by the body immediately.

 

I use the Methylcobalamin form.  For those who live in Chiang Mai it is available under the brand name Merabin in 500mcg dose, and sold at Peera Pharmacy.

 

 

yeah some people don't like Cyanocobalamin and prefer the natural form of b12, I understand that, I took the Meth form before too, in Thailand and in the UK, but from what I understand, it hasn't been well studied, its more expensive, and doesn't have as good shelf life as Cyano does, Cyano is safe to take for most people, but saying that, another Plant Based doctor Dr Klaper, recommends Methylcobalamin so I guess its up to each individual to decide what they take, but thinking about it, is the Cyanocobalamin form even available in Thailand ?

[Kohsamida]

41 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

"Another factor that comes into play are “cravings” for foods that might not be considered to be good for you.  Sometimes those cravings can be pretty intense, and I’ll give in to them.  It’s not because I’m weak-willed.  I give in to them because sometimes I think the body knows what it needs more than I do.  

 

What I mean is that our knowledge of how the body works is not very evolved, however the body’s instincts are, and sometimes it might just be the wisest thing to give in to them.

 

Bottom line for me, none of us are going to live forever.  We’re all gonna die; it’s just a matter of when.  My goal as far as nutrition goes is to live life to its fullest without depriving myself too much of the things that make it worth living.  I don't think there is a right or wrong way to do this.  it's up to the individual to decide what's best for them."

 

I agree with almost everything that you write (which is a good thing - smiling).

 

But we will have to agree to disagree about (what I understand to be ) some of your ideas:

 

1) Cravings - mostly are they are just that cravings that are perhaps physical and perhaps in the mind but not good for you - example often many people get cravings for proccesed junk food (fill in the blanks for what that might be - sodas chips etc just to make a point..) I strongly doubt that it is in your best interests to give in to them. to eb fair if a family member spends housr baking you a chocolate cake - it may be best to eat a slice but that is an extreme example and I don't like emotional blackmail.

 

2) "I don't think there is a right or wrong way to do this.  it's up to the individual to decide what's best for them."

An individual has to some extent the right to do what they like - no doubt - but it is not always best. I do think there are some absolutes in life - just my way of thinging - I accept taht many don't agree.

 

Another extreme example smoking - it is clear now that it causes cancer and huge costs to our economy directly and indirectly.

 

Drinking and driving - huge social costs and so on... granted these are extreme examples to make a point.

 

3) Currently science is pointing towards a plant based diet but many smart people are no convinced - yet. Perhaps in 60 years from now people will think about eating meat the same way they think about smoking now.

 

4) If you need to travel for work - that is a real concern. I do not have a good answer for this - but we can always do our best ( and I am sure that you do)  - bring a rice cooker with us and so on... Yes, not fun and time consuming I understand - but this is why I take my lunch with me now. Would love to find a plant based restauraunt with no oil, salt or sugar nearby but have not found even one.

Actually I couldn't agree more with the points you make.  And above all is the notion that a person's path to a healthy lifestyle is a highly personal thing.  What works for one person may not be right for another.  It's not only the right of every person to decide what's best for them, it's also their responsibility to decide on their own and not just follow the advice of the masses.  Naturally, there are indeed certain absolutes (i.e.: drinking and driving) but with many health-related things, there are often no universal right or wrong ways. 

 

I think the best approach to optimal health is just being attuned to your own body.  It often makes its' needs known in subtle ways.  Obviously, scarfing down an entire chocolate cake in one sitting is one you should ignore of course ?.  My point is simply that many people are under the impression they must follow a precise, prescribed way of eating in order to be healthy and I don't agree because that takes the feedback from your own body out of the loop, ya know?  Just my own view ?

    

[Kohsamida]

14 minutes ago, MalandLee said:

No need to be sorry mate, you are correct - on the points you made - however, many things become catalysts for many people. Juicing (I happen to know) got many started and in turn saved their lives. He had a good way of marketing (Better than me) hence got the "plant" message out there. - Did not help Phil Staples a lot - sadly.

 

Dr Greger 

methylcobalamin vs cyanocobalamin 

"It’s like the whole coral calcium scam. Calcium is cheap as chalk–in fact it is chalk! So how are you going to bilk people out of lots of money? You sell some sort of special calcium. Same with B12 supplements.

B12 is so cheap to produce that supplement manufacturers try to come up with all sorts of fancy ways to “add value” to products so they can charge $30 a bottle. Unless you’re a smoker, have kidney failure, or base your diet around cassava root, cyanocobalamin should be fine. That’s what I take!"

SOURCE: https://nutritionfacts.org/questions/which-type-of-b12-is-best/

 

I take 1000 mcg a week - annual blood test(s) show my levels to be on the upper side of normal.

 

It is healthy to differ, but, fundamentally I agree with a lot of what you have written on this thread. 

 

Take care

Mal

 

 

 

 

I agree 100% that Cross's videos served a noble purpose.  I mean, it did , in fact, get me to go out and buy a juicer and begin exploring the benefits of juicing.  And in a larger sense, it got many people (including myself) onto a path that led me to better nutrition.  I just have a thing about those who make false and misleading claims merely for commercial reasons.

 

Kindest regards ?

 

[Kohsamida]

15 minutes ago, Bonobojt said:

yeah some people don't like Cyanocobalamin and prefer the natural form of b12, I understand that, I took the Meth form before too, in Thailand and in the UK, but from what I understand, it hasn't been well studied, its more expensive, and doesn't have as good shelf life as Cyano does, Cyano is safe to take for most people, but saying that, another Plant Based doctor Dr Klaper, recommends Methylcobalamin so I guess its up to each individual to decide what they take, but thinking about it, is the Cyanocobalamin form even available in Thailand ?

Isn't that the case with everything related to health?  You can rarely get a definitive answer to these kind of things.  The best you can do is be well informed of opposing views, and then make your own decision.

 

Regarding availability of Cyanocobalamin in Thailand... it is available, and cheaper for sure but the pharmacist told me that hardly anyone buys it. (I was asking her about the injectable form though, so you may be correct about the oral form).

[TravelerEastWest]

"they must follow a precise, prescribed way of eating in order to be healthy and I don't agree because that takes the feedback from your own body out of the loop, ya know?  Just my own view"

 

Also in general my point of view - except I don't think that meat eating is  a good idea 99.99% of the time - granted if starving and nothing else is available it might be OK but for those of us who haven't eaten meat in over 40 years meat is not an option you would normally throw up as your body has a hard time with meat at first.

 

Again the research is not yet 100% in favor of plant based diets just as at first it was not against smoking.

[TravelerEastWest]

1 hour ago, Bonobojt said:

yes b12 takes years to get low and deficient, but everyone is different, some people might get low in 1 year, some might be low in 5 years, our gut bacteria health isn't all the same, so its best to supplement, that's just my opinion, I wouldn't risk it because b12 deficiency can be very serious. Yes I'm sure I've heard Dr Micheal Greger say in an interview that the b12 you take in pill form, you absorb a tiny amount which is enough for your body, then the rest is pee'd out as its a water soluble vitamin.   

Agreed that if you eat a plant based diet a supplment is a good idea - I take a low dose multi vitamin daily. I get them from iherb in the mail.

 

I am a fan of Gregor but have never heard him say that B-12 is only absorbed in a tiny amount - it does not make sense if you can store a supply for years... Can you provide a link to the video or article please?  I like the way he runs while giving interviews.

 

As for gut bacteria I really don't know much about it other than with a plant based diet and no smoking or drinking etc you are normally fine.

[Justfine]

On 6/29/2018 at 6:37 PM, Lacessit said:

I was quite surprised when my doctor in Australia informed me I was Vitamin B12 deficient. I don't eat much beef in Chiang Mai due to the poor quality. Pork, chicken and fish don't cut the mustard as far as B12 is concerned. We only get it from beef or B12 supplements, which I now take sporadically.

My son and daughter-in-law were vegans for quite some time. They now eat red meat, as they became anaemic after years of abstinence from meat.

IMHO the real diet villains are fat and sugar. There's a publication put out by the World Health Organisation called

" Food, Nutrition and Cancer". It's difficult to find any cancer which does not have fat listed as a contributing factor.

Fat is not bad for you if used as energy. Fat like carbs becomes bad if you eat too much and don't exercise. The best 100 mile runner in the US eats loads of fat.