Put your cards on the table, EU makes last Brexit call to Britain

[sandyf]

On 7/15/2018 at 12:56 PM, billd766 said:

 

I was at RAF Wildenrath near Monchengladbach  in Germany which was close to Roermond in Holland. We used DM quite often in Holland and Dutch guilders in Germany. When I went back to the UK I would go via the Dutch and Belgian motorways and there were always currency exchange shops at the motorway services. The ferries took GBP, DM, Guilders, Belgian francs and cheques. The only country I had a problem with was France. Luxembourg was OK and I even found a pub selling Watneys draught Red Barrel.

 

I never even had a passport but used my NATO travel permit and had no problems in the 2 1/2 years I was there.

Quite Bill, but it was all a bit hit and miss on what they would take and the rate being used. Cost you 3 to 4 times as much to go to the toilet if you did not use the local currency.

Imagine the chaos if we had had smartphones, stood at the till trying to establish the best deal. The locals hated it and had been after a common currency for years, even back then.

[sandyf]

On 7/15/2018 at 10:14 PM, billd766 said:

 

Why would I need to be protected from self harm. I am big enough, old enough and ugly enough to make my own mind up.

 

And I did by voting Leave back in 2016 after voting to join the EEC back in 1975.

 

I admit I was wrong and lied to back then and it took 40 odd years for the government to allow me to change my mind.

 

Die you vote back then?

I take it from that Bill that you are in favour of people having the opportunity to change their mind.

I didn't vote in 1975, among other reasons I was on detachment with the last British built bomber.

[The Renegade]

9 minutes ago, sandyf said:

A statement from the heads of government may be nothing to you but it was what Edward Heath agreed to and what the people voted for in 1975.

Was it really ?

 

Here is the question from the 1975 Referendum ballot paper

 

Quote

Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?

It had 2 possible answers. Yes or No.

 

Do you see those 2 key words '' Common Market ? '' 

 

This is what was voted on in '75. It was not a vote on further Political and Monetary Union under the control of Brussels and the ECJ leading to today's EU.

[bristolboy]

10 minutes ago, sandyf said:

A statement from the heads of government may be nothing to you but it was what Edward Heath agreed to and what the people voted for in 1975.

No you're 100% wrong. Edward Heath did not agree to nor did the UK citizerny vote for a monetary union. Much less a fiscal union.. You're confusing the 1975 referendum on EC membership with the Maastricht Treaty of 1994(?). And the UK opted out of the Euro as was its right. The recent Great Recession proved how wise that choice was.

[sandyf]

In 1969 the heads of the EC agreed to implement a course of action that would lead to economic, monetary and political unification,

In 1972 by agreeing to join the EC the UK government accepted the future direction of the EC, and in 1975 the people of the UK voted to remain in the EC knowing full well the direction the EC would take.

[sandyf]

13 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

No you're 100% wrong. Edward Heath did not agree to nor did the UK citizerny vote for a monetary union. Much less a fiscal union.. You're confusing the 1975 referendum on EC membership with the Maastricht Treaty of 1994(?). And the UK opted out of the Euro as was its right. The recent Great Recession proved how wise that choice was.

I have to assume from that statement that you made comment on my previous post without bothering to read the link.

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

In 1969 the heads of the EC agreed to implement a course of action that would lead to economic, monetary and political unification,

In 1972 by agreeing to join the EC the UK government accepted the future direction of the EC, and in 1975 the people of the UK voted to remain in the EC knowing full well the direction the EC would take.

Really, they knew full well that one day there would be a United States of Europe? This is nonsense. There was no legal mechanism voted on that could impose such a vision or any date set for its realization. It was just a general statement of aspirations.  And there still are no such mechanisms or dates today. And no real will to either. I can't imagine the Germans accepting budget deficits. And we know that for a fact that the UK was able to opt out of the common currency. And Poland, which promised to adopt the Euro one day, still has yet to do so and has no plans to. And there is no mechanism for forcing Poland's hand. 

Those aspirational sentiments carry as much legal force as does a greeting card.

[bristolboy]

5 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I have to assume from that statement that you made comment on my previous post without bothering to read the link.

How far back in the thread do you expect me to go to find this link? And will it disprove what I have written?

[The Renegade]

9 minutes ago, sandyf said:

In 1969 the heads of the EC agreed to implement a course of action that would lead to economic, monetary and political unification,

In 1972 by agreeing to join the EC the UK government accepted the future direction of the EC, and in 1975 the people of the UK voted to remain in the EC knowing full well the direction the EC would take.

Tsk Tsk 

 

Then why did the ballot paper state explicitly

 

Quote

Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?

2 pertinent words '' Common Market ''

 

The '75 Referendum leaflet

 

http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm#6

 

The UK electorate were certainly not made aware of the further Monetary and Political integration that was to follow.

[Grouse]

New trade deal with Japanmeans single market for 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th largest economies. 600M!! Non tariff barriers on cars and pharma are key.

 

Brexit should at least be postponed or extended or canned. It makes more and more sense to remain.

[stephenterry]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

New trade deal with Japanmeans single market for 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th largest economies. 600M!! Non tariff barriers on cars and pharma are key.

 

Brexit should at least be postponed or extended or canned. It makes more and more sense to remain.

Sadly, the Betfreders are intent on gambling away the UK's economy in pursuit of independent trade deals - It beats me why they should think that is a more profitable course for the UK than trading in the current EU single market. 

 

Oh, I get it. It's a throwback to when Britannia ruled the waves. Every country will be hanging out their linen to attract us. 

 

[Grouse]

49 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Tsk Tsk 

 

Then why did the ballot paper state explicitly

 

2 pertinent words '' Common Market ''

 

The '75 Referendum leaflet

 

http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm#6

 

The UK electorate were certainly not made aware of the further Monetary and Political integration that was to follow.

So passé 

 

The World has moved on!

 

600M trading block, we should at least remain in that with a seat at the top table

[The Renegade]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

New trade deal with Japanmeans single market for 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th largest economies. 600M!! Non tariff barriers on cars and pharma are key.

How about not counting your chickens and wait until the deal is actually finalised before crowing from the rooftops.

 

5 years in and it is  still not a done deal.

 

It still has to go through legal scrutiny. Be approved by the EU Parliament, then sent out for acceptance by the EU States.

 

The other part that sticks out like a sore thumb is the complete absence of the ECJ is dispute resolution.

 

Why is that acceptable with Japan and Canada, but not with the UK ?

[stephenterry]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

So passé 

 

The World has moved on!

 

600M trading block, we should at least remain in that with a seat at the top table

If this deal has taken five years to come to fruition, think how long it would take the UK to agree and implement a deal with the US after Brexit. Three years minimum, is the US standard time-frame with other countries. 

 

Ah, yes, while the UK waits the people can eat fish.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

In 1969 the heads of the EC agreed to implement a course of action that would lead to economic, monetary and political unification,

In 1972 by agreeing to join the EC the UK government accepted the future direction of the EC, and in 1975 the people of the UK voted to remain in the EC knowing full well the direction the EC would take.

In 1975 the majority of people were conned. Most were unaware of anything other than the idea of a "common market".  A continuation of Heath's deception by WIlson. It was the EEC anyway.

[stephenterry]

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

In 1975 the majority of people were conned. Most were unaware of anything other than the idea of a "common market".  A continuation of Heath's deception by WIlson. It was the EEC anyway.

Time moves on, nauseus. Being conned hasn't. I've little doubt that today's politicians are just as deceptive as those in the past. What the  British public has been sold during and after the referendum by all parties and rebels is probably not the reality of what's going to occur if and when Brexit is enacted.

 

Whatever shape or form that is regarded as being best for the country (illusionary con) will be the government's new mantra - and if you don't like it, tough - you voted for it.

Eat fish instead.

 

 

 

 

    

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

In 1969 the heads of the EC agreed to implement a course of action that would lead to economic, monetary and political unification,

In 1972 by agreeing to join the EC the UK government accepted the future direction of the EC, and in 1975 the people of the UK voted to remain in the EC knowing full well the direction the EC would take.

 

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

Tsk Tsk 

 

Then why did the ballot paper state explicitly

 

2 pertinent words '' Common Market ''

 

The '75 Referendum leaflet

 

http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm#6

 

The UK electorate were certainly not made aware of the further Monetary and Political integration that was to follow.

 

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

So passé 

 

The World has moved on!

 

600M trading block, we should at least remain in that with a seat at the top table

Passe?  It's important to this debate to understand why the electorate voted to join the eec at the time - and subsequently changed their minds.

 

Even as a 15 (?) year old and only learning about politics from reading my dad's Telegraph as he drove me to school - I realised that joining the eec was only going to result in higher prices for the consumer.....

 

Of course "the World has moved on" since then - and not for the better....

[stephenterry]

29 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

Passe?  It's important to this debate to understand why the electorate voted to join the eec at the time - and subsequently changed their minds.

 

Even as a 15 (?) year old and only learning about politics from reading my dad's Telegraph as he drove me to school - I realised that joining the eec was only going to result in higher prices for the consumer.....

 

Of course "the World has moved on" since then - and not for the better....

DD - which ever way you look at it, leaving the EU will also result in higher prices for the consumer, for the same reasons as joining, and the impact of inflation and scarcity of goods. I cannot imagine any scenario when prices will fall as a result of Brexit - oh, maybe fish.  

 

You might also remember that inflation went rampant during the 70's, with interest rates hitting the high teens, which also contributed to higher priced goods.

Edited July 17, 2018 by stephenterry
addition to text.

[bristolboy]

14 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

DD - which ever way you look at it, leaving the EU will also result in higher prices for the consumer, for the same reasons as joining, and the impact of inflation and scarcity of goods. I cannot imagine any scenario when prices will fall as a result of Brexit - oh, maybe fish.  

Some imported foods should fall in price. I'm sure there are some others. But overwhelmingly the opposite will be the case.

[stephenterry]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Some imported foods should fall in price. I'm sure there are some others. But overwhelmingly the opposite will be the case.

Yes, there will be tariff-free goods, if we can strike a deal that doesn't take 3 years to implement, And providing our ports aren't blocked solid, that is.

[bristolboy]

Just now, stephenterry said:

Yes, there will be tariff-free goods, if we can strike a deal that doesn't take 3 years to implement, And providing our ports aren't blocked solid, that is.

The UK can unilaterally waive tariffs it could impose if it so chooses. It doesn't need a treaty to do that. And in some cases WTO rules that come into effect would allow only for much lower tariffs than currently exist. 

[dick dasterdly]

25 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

DD - which ever way you look at it, leaving the EU will also result in higher prices for the consumer, for the same reasons as joining, and the impact of inflation and scarcity of goods. I cannot imagine any scenario when prices will fall as a result of Brexit - oh, maybe fish.  

I've no doubt that big business and the govt. will ensure this, but that's a different discussion....

 

The uk endured far higher prices than everyone else for decades - for no reason other than greed/'we can get away with it'...

 

To be fair, the eu 'powers' realised that this was annoying the more informed brit. consumers, and (I think?) came up with regulations to stop this to a large extent.

 

As I've said previously, the eu used to be far more intelligent (than various uk govts.) when it comes to keeping the proletariat reasonably happy.

Edited July 17, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[stephenterry]

10 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

The UK can unilaterally waive tariffs it could impose if it so chooses. It doesn't need a treaty to do that. And in some cases WTO rules that come into effect would allow only for much lower tariffs than currently exist. 

It's better to avoid being subject to WTO rules, IMO, as it would be a last gasp stopping place for the UK, and a political nightmare agreeing a new set of tariffs etc. etc. No way would the WTO accept a lower tariff for goods than that is already in place.

[Chomper Higgot]

37 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I've no doubt that big business and the govt. will ensure this, but that's a different discussion....

 

The uk endured far higher prices than everyone else for decades - for no reason other than greed/'we can get away with it'...

 

To be fair, the eu 'powers' realised that this was annoying the more informed brit. consumers, and (I think?) came up with regulations to stop this to a large extent.

 

As I've said previously, the eu used to be far more intelligent (than various uk govts.) when it comes to keeping the proletariat reasonably happy.

I love this ‘the powers’ bit.

 

I guess ‘the powers’ got their heads together and asked for the telecoms corporations, airlines and car manufacturers to volunteer to be forced to accept regulations ending their price gouging for the good of ‘the powers’.

 

The EU ended price gouging in the U.K. by regulating the excesses of ‘big businesses’ while Brexiteers laughably accuse the EU of being a tool of big business against ordinary people.

 

FACT: The Tories plan post Brexit ‘deregulation’ that will remove protections for ordinary working put in place by the EU.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[bristolboy]

27 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

It's better to avoid being subject to WTO rules, IMO, as it would be a last gasp stopping place for the UK, and a political nightmare agreeing a new set of tariffs etc. etc. No way would the WTO accept a lower tariff for goods than that is already in place.

I don't think you have a clear idea of what the WTO does. It would have absolutely no say in this.

[Chomper Higgot]

42 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

The UK can unilaterally waive tariffs it could impose if it so chooses. It doesn't need a treaty to do that. And in some cases WTO rules that come into effect would allow only for much lower tariffs than currently exist. 

You’re getting ahead of yourself, the U.K. can’t even negotiate Brexit.

[tebee]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You’re getting ahead of yourself, the U.K. can’t even negotiate Brexit.

And our own government has just legistated to make its own proposed policy on Brexit illegal !

 

Just when you think things can't get any more farcical, they do.... 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

Time moves on, nauseus. Being conned hasn't. I've little doubt that today's politicians are just as deceptive as those in the past. What the  British public has been sold during and after the referendum by all parties and rebels is probably not the reality of what's going to occur if and when Brexit is enacted.

 

Whatever shape or form that is regarded as being best for the country (illusionary con) will be the government's new mantra - and if you don't like it, tough - you voted for it.

Eat fish instead.

 

 

 

 

    

Reference was to the history of all this. Being conned is obviously an ongoing process; this includes the con that is the EU. Of course the effects of leaving are a different matter but they are a consequence of joining in the first place.

 

I don't give a damn about the government's mantra and I love fresh fish. 

[The Renegade]

26 minutes ago, tebee said:

Just when you think things can't get any more farcical, they do...

And up you pop ?

 

Now, tell us all exactly what you mean by

 

26 minutes ago, tebee said:

And our own government has just legistated to make its own proposed policy on Brexit illegal !

Your explanation should be side splitting ??

[Chomper Higgot]

Oops!

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/17/vote-leave-fined-and-reported-to-police-by-electoral-commission-brexit