6 minutes ago, Nowisee said:

Stupid question.
Where and what is the water source going into the cave system?  What is the volume?

(I am now a Tuesday keyboard expert ...555)

 

IMO... Redirect the water source away from the cave entrance and PUMP, PUMP, PUMP! 

The drilling from above is seemingly much more work.
Pulling the kids through using diving equipment seems risky, but if one of them has life threatening issues, ok.
 

I believe they have diverted one major sink (where a stream enters), but any low points on the hillsides are likely to drain through the limestone and find its way into the cave.  The catchment area is probably around 30-40 sq kms, so impossible to block all entry points when it rains heavily.

 

The more pumps they can use will hopefully keep the levels in the caves down, but it may be that the low points are now below the local water table.

 

Drilling from above will be almost 1km in depth from what I understand. 

2 hours ago, YetAnother said:

At Least 4 months ! ouch

 

It is far better to have too much food, water, clean dry clothing, bedding etc, lights and air in the cave than not enough, just in case. 4 months takes up to November and by then the flooding should have subsided. There is also the small problem of some sort of toilet facility for 13 people for up to 4 months. These are just random thoughts of mine and I sure that the rescue teams have all this, and more, covered.

I think someone made a typo 4 days not 4 months is more like it?

I certainly can empathize with the danger of panic during such a dive. Or being entombed in a capsule, and I'm not specifically claustrophobic. I suspect almost anyone can become a bit claustrophobic when in a tight enough space under stress.

 

Back when some miners were stranded thousands of meters below the surface by a mine tunnel collapse (was it Peru or Chile?), and they drilled a rescue hole to them, they first drilled a small hole (4") to make sure they had the right spot, then later a bigger hole (24 or 30" or so) to accommodate the elevator shown in the pic in post #2. My recollection was that it took less than a week once they had located them to drill the wider hole, and that was waaaay under ground.

 

But what I recall reading is that the journey up was very stressful and even one of the miners, accustomed to being underground in tight places, had a panic attack on the way up.

 

Someone posted here that part of the danger of drilling is causing a cave in. Seems to me that's the more critical issue, because they're in a small area they can't drill very far away from them.

 

I'd like to know what sort of location devices there are for tracking GPS coordinates when you're underground and can't receive a GPS signal. Don't they have something that can track motion and calculate position as you go? Also whether they could take a device to them that sends out a "ping" sonar signal that could then be triangulated upon from the surface using multiple receivers.

 

Another question for doctors and divers: could the risk of panic while being extracted via dive or elevator be mitigated with some kind of medication, like Valium, that would help the boys chill out and allow themselves to be dragged along? Or does that increase risk or have bad side effects when under pressure due to being under water?

 

 

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 There is also the small problem of some sort of toilet facility for 13 people for up to 4 months.

They've got a river running through their cave, I think they'll be using that, whether the divers appreciate it or not.

It might take 4 days to get the kids back to good health, and train them to attempt an evacuation, but if heavy rains come again, and block the cave again, it may take 4 months until they can make a safe exit, and so this should be their backstop position.

 

I'd expect there to be a lot more than just the 13 kids in there, whether it's for 4 days or 4 months...probably more like 20-30 in total.  

1 hour ago, Bangna Betty said:

So fantastic they have been found alive. Sincerely hope they can be got out safely. They don’t really need an entire dive course - just some basics and confidence to be underwater with a mask. Very hard for these kids who may not even know how to swim, and terrible water conditions. 

 

Read post #31 by Oilinki who is an experienced diver but not a cave diver.

 

It will be very difficult but not impossible.

 

1 hour ago, steve73 said:

You make a good point about just needing the basics & confidence. 

They probably wouldn't even need to swim since they'll be able to pull themselves along using the guide rope.  If they're trained to pull "hand-over-hand" there'll be little risk of them trying to pull off their mask.. and of course a fully trained rescue diver immediately in front and another right behind to provide assistance.

Must surely be better than having to stay upto 4 months until the wet season finishes and the water level subsides.... 4 months where they (and others) are exposed to many other risks.

 

If SEAL teams trained for stuff like this plus experienced cave divers say that the kids can be trained but it would be better to wait, I know whose advice I would take.

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

 

It is far better to have too much food, water, clean dry clothing, bedding etc, lights and air in the cave than not enough, just in case. 4 months takes up to November and by then the flooding should have subsided. There is also the small problem of some sort of toilet facility for 13 people for up to 4 months. These are just random thoughts of mine and I sure that the rescue teams have all this, and more, covered.

"These are just random thoughts of mine and I sure that the rescue teams have all this, and more, covered.'"

Random, maybe, but very valid, as 13 boys without food for 10 days, are only passing water, once they start to eat, there is the small problem of toilet waste removal from the 13 plus the numerous people tasked with their care.

.  The first phase of this operation, locating the 13 boys. is now complete. The second phase, recovery, is the more difficult aspect I would say.

As to comparing the rescue of 33 Chilean miners  8 years ago, they were trapped in a mine 700 metres beneath the Atacama desert, a relatively level surface by comparison to this Chiang Rai mountainous area  where  access from above is limited to helicopters etc. with no access roads to bring in heavy drilling gear.   I believe that the 4 months was mentioned as a worst case scenario and it is quite possible that a successful extraction will be made much sooner, hopefully.    

2 hours ago, holy cow cm said:

Good thing is they are safe and they will be out way sooner than any elections will ever take place. yes, had to throw it in there. 

The wrong throwing at this time -

at least, under that administration many things work and so is that rescue operation until now.

 

 

7 minutes ago, jerry921 said:

I'd like to know what sort of location devices there are for tracking GPS coordinates when you're underground and can't receive a GPS signal. Don't they have something that can track motion and calculate position as you go? Also whether they could take a device to them that sends out a "ping" sonar signal that could then be triangulated upon from the surface using multiple receivers.

 

Another question for doctors and divers: could the risk of panic while being extracted via dive or elevator be mitigated with some kind of medication, like Valium, that would help the boys chill out and allow themselves to be dragged along? Or does that increase risk or have bad side effects when under pressure due to being under water?

I'm not aware of any signal which would be able to penetrate the bedrock without bouncing from the cave walls. 

 

Triangulation is often done using lasers, which can provide very accurate distances and angles. 

Inside the cave with lots of turns, this is quite difficult. 

 

It's possible to do triangulation using ropes, but the accuracy naturally suffers. If I approximated anywhere close, just one degree difference in 2 km distance equals to about 40 meters.

 

I don't think the drugs would have effect on short and shallow dives. But we don't really know yet what is the cave profile. 

2 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

How long will the coach get for taking 12 kids, who cannot even swim or dive in a serious cave system the rainy season, minus equipment apart from flip flops?

He for sure will feel miserable since 10 days already - ?

I certainly can empathize with the danger of panic during such a dive. Or being entombed in a capsule, and I'm not specifically claustrophobic. I suspect almost anyone can become a bit claustrophobic when in a tight enough space under stress.
 
Back when some miners were stranded thousands of meters below the surface by a mine tunnel collapse (was it Peru or Chile?), and they drilled a rescue hole to them, they first drilled a small hole (4") to make sure they had the right spot, then later a bigger hole (24 or 30" or so) to accommodate the elevator shown in the pic in post #2. My recollection was that it took less than a week once they had located them to drill the wider hole, and that was waaaay under ground.
 
But what I recall reading is that the journey up was very stressful and even one of the miners, accustomed to being underground in tight places, had a panic attack on the way up.
 
Someone posted here that part of the danger of drilling is causing a cave in. Seems to me that's the more critical issue, because they're in a small area they can't drill very far away from them.
 
I'd like to know what sort of location devices there are for tracking GPS coordinates when you're underground and can't receive a GPS signal. Don't they have something that can track motion and calculate position as you go? Also whether they could take a device to them that sends out a "ping" sonar signal that could then be triangulated upon from the surface using multiple receivers.
 
Another question for doctors and divers: could the risk of panic while being extracted via dive or elevator be mitigated with some kind of medication, like Valium, that would help the boys chill out and allow themselves to be dragged along? Or does that increase risk or have bad side effects when under pressure due to being under water?
 
 

Sedation would be a very bad idea. The boys will need to be fully alert with their wits about them, able to follow complex instructions to the letter.

Neither their actions to date nor their manner when rescued give any indication they are likely to panic. Kids that age if anything tend to have an underdeveloped sense of danger (hence the well know adolescent tendency for risk taking behavior), especially when in a group.

The bigger issue is physical resilence as even the experienced divers found it physically challenging. They will need to build up their strength and physical endurance.

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2 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

How long will the coach get for taking 12 kids, who cannot even swim or dive in a serious cave system the rainy season, minus equipment apart from flip flops?

 

  I'm not sure, but somehow throwing him into a dark, cramped, hole prone to flooding and

with poor sanitary conditions would seem a little passé.

 

15 minutes ago, ALFREDO said:

The wrong throwing at this time -

at least, under that administration many things work and so is that rescue operation until now.

 

 

Disagree. Wasn't Prayuth or Prawit who cleared the path for the all out rescue. From what I understand it was the King and his power giving the full support for what ever it took to make it happen. So this administration cannot take a pat on the back. 

1 hour ago, seaninkorat said:

Now they have been located, drill down to a proximate cave with pinpoint accuracy and extract them like Los 33 in Chile. Alternatively, wait until November and walk them out. The cave could be made suitably comfortable for a 4 month hole-up.

Does the cave fully drain? If it does, this is probably their only option. Even experienced scuba divers would have a very difficult time handling a long cave dive like that. It often takes years for adult divers to gain the confidence for cave diving as there's no escape if something goes wrong. Cave diving is a special course you take once you're already an experienced diver. In PADI training you need to complete the advanced open water diver course before you can start the cave diving course... and you can't do this course until your 15 years old.

Edited July 3, 20188 yr by tropo

Some clarity from the BBC it takes around 3 hours return trip for divers to reach the boys with a mix of total flooding and wading its going to be very difficult looks like the training option will be the only one good luck.

Need a mining type ventilation system quick! CO2 underground is a very dangerous risk.  Problem being if it is already a tight squeeze to get to them, making it tighter by filling it with >3,000m of in/out hose is going to compound that risk.  CO2 scrubbers would work, powered by?  Technology is a great answer if this was a controlled environment, that's the catch!  Every hour they remain in there, must be beyond breaking point already with this sort of stress! 

 

Mine rescue people, keep working on it, what sounded like good news last night, is still a huge problem! Best wishes to you all helping and to you young people still in the cave.

Stick them in a suit like this, tie their hands to their sides so they cant grab anything, tie their feet together pull them through. Difficult and maybe cruel, but it will get the job done. One by one they will come out, I'm not an expert and I'm not taking the piss, but I would do that before I leave them in their for 4 months.

 

 

put them inside giant condoms and then float them down past pattaya beach.

Edited July 3, 20188 yr by lionsincity

Most importantly is the trapped kids are found and safe... Big thks to the 2 British Divers. Their experience with caves was invaluable. Am sure they will be out of the caves soon.

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Even after the boys were reached and found alive, we still have people questioning the plan to get them out safely. 

I get it that it's a discussion forum but maybe read the full news reports before coming up with solutions that really don't make sense.

 

- There are videos showing how small and oddly shaped some of the passageways are. They are the type that you are squeezing your way through and any experienced cave or wreck diver knows that there are all sorts of risks of getting your gear snagged or dislodged of stuck in situations like this.

- They had to bring in smaller men to be the first to traverse some of the holes. 

- Divers had to remove equipment to get past certain points. 

- There is zero visibility and the water is actually silty. 

- The water will also be rushing against them as they exit. 

 

Even at full strength, the current may be too strong for the boys to handle, especially the younger ones. Also, claustrophobia induced panic is definitely a real danger given the tight spaces and no visibility. 

 

With all of this being said, we should have total faith in the expertise of the people onsite at this point.

 

 

 

Four months? Is quite a long time, survive under the circumstances will be very difficult, must find another solution for the kids.

Edited July 3, 20188 yr by peperobi

14 minutes ago, jossthaifarang said:

Stick them in a suit like this, tie their hands to their sides so they cant grab anything, tie their feet together pull them through. Difficult and maybe cruel, but it will get the job done. One by one they will come out, I'm not an expert and I'm not taking the piss, but I would do that before I leave them in their for 4 months.

 

 

You don't need a body suit if all you want to do is get bodies out. 

2 minutes ago, Jupitero said:

Not to be a party-pooper, but rather than teaching them how to dive, it might be better to teach them how not to go into caves during the rainy season.

Whats happened is a fact. No point discussing it now imo.

 

I am keen to learn whats ahead of them to get out. They are 3 klms in, right? How many sections are totally submerged? How many are walkable, wadeable? Does anyone have this info to give a clear understanding of whats in the path out for them all?

6 minutes ago, Jupitero said:

Not to be a party-pooper, but as well as teaching them how to dive so they can get out, it might be better to teach them how not to go into caves during the rainy season, so they don't get in in the first place.

They've had 10 days to meditate on that, I figure they've probably gotten around to something of an understanding on that point by now. But please feel free to point it out to them if you ever meet any of them. ?

5 minutes ago, peperobi said:

Four months? Is quite a long time, survive under the circumstances will be very difficult, must find another solution for the kids.

I dont think there is an actual 4 month plan, I think 4 months food is a metaphor for more than enough food for any outcome, change of plans etc.

One article noted that the group is in a spot approx 3 kms from the entrance, and between 800-1,000 meters underground.
 

Drilling down from above would be a monumental task, assuming they could accurately pinpoint the location of the cavern, get the right equipment to a suitable spot and then drill down without causing a cave-in or opening up another water flow into the cavern. At least some of the rock is porous limestone. Possibly not a good material to try and drill a shaft through.
 

Keep in mind, this isn't simply a small cave with a little stream flowing through it. If that was the case they could simply divert the flow and wait for the water downstream to subside, then walk out the way they went in. 

Also keep in mind that even if they hit a "dry spell" with no rain for a few days, all the water absorbed into all the aquifers could take weeks to drain off. 

 

10 days in the dark with nothing but water dripping from the roof to sustain them ? Wow. Probably a little chilly down there as well. I'm amazed that they all seem to be OK. 
 

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

It is far better to have too much food, water, clean dry clothing, bedding etc, lights and air in the cave than not enough, just in case. 4 months takes up to November and by then the flooding should have subsided. There is also the small problem of some sort of toilet facility for 13 people for up to 4 months. These are just random thoughts of mine and I sure that the rescue teams have all this, and more, covered.

Nope. Eating too much too quickly (as this is a natural urge) will kill a starving person. They will have to portion the right (easily digestable food) in small amounts to avoid problems. Providing 4 months of food all at one time--if that is the plan--might be very risky... 

4 hours ago, oilinki said:

 

Similar to this, but naturally water tight.

 

is it to early for the jokes to start?

It's not rainy season yet, if they intend to wait it out, better get real heavy duty pumps.