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Middle Class In Los


guido

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middle class in thailand, mean that you or family own a decent 2-3 bedroom home (condo), each person would have a car to get around, have a good and secure job or a business, they can afford a vacation trip abroad every year, and go to pataya or phuket or samui on public holiday, 50k-100k a month salary would get you that, if couple more power to you. im sorry to say if you make less than 50k a month it wouldn't be consider middle class, half your money would go to rent or morgage, the other half won't do, by the end of the month you are lucky to save 10k

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This will answer more than what you asked but does cover money and some money related matters - it is written in the back of personal experience and direct observation in Thailand

Advice I give to People Thinking of Moving to Thailand

This was written for a specific couple so please forgive me if some of it is not relevant , but it is based on my own experiences of over eleven years of living and working in Thailand.

Hi,

I'm pleased to offer some advice, it will be a bit general and I'll include a lot of the downfall (it's never all good news and it's never good to hear only the good news).

Your starting point should be to contact your nearest Thai Consulate, they have all the information and the (actual) requirements that you need to meet.

You can also contact www.pattayaexpatsclub.com

And www.thaivisa.com

What follows here is the mostly the down side and the things you need to take care of.

Me in Thailand.

I was assigned to Thailand by an American corporation.

Under a special treaty between the US and Thailand Americans and American companies are entitled to own (wholly own) a business in Thailand - No other nationalities are allowed to do so unless they meet the Thai Board of Investment requirements (BOI Approval). Both the treaty and the BOI approval give a company the right to employ a restricted number of foreigners and that is how I got my work permit/visas.

Note here, you need both a work permit and a visa. Working without a permit is extremely risky, it can, and often does, result in arrest and immediate imprisonment.

That risk is doubly worrisome if you have children.

Employment Opportunities.

I’m an engineer and I got assigned to site by chance, it wasn’t something I had planned. I can’t give you any real information on what opportunities there are for your profession, I can say that I have seen very few foreigners working in any Thai companies excluding those that are foreign owned.

The right to practice of most professions is controlled by law and certification in Thailand.

Most professions are able to find staff who are well educated and fully trained from among the Thai population.

The exceptions are highly specialist areas, again often catered for by multinational companies.

Money.

The serious stuff.

I have a double income, I’m paid a local living allowance of around US$1800/month which, while it doesn’t cover all my costs, does cover most. I’m also paid in Hard currency back home.

This is important because if at sometime you want to go home (see Residence) you need to have funds and a place to live. Money in Thailand in Thai currency will not be of much use.

As I say I more or less live on US$1800 but I live in a very modest house and I rarely drink. Importantly I my employers also give me a car, (taxed and insured), a fuel allowance, pension, health insurance and yearly flights home for me and my family. Without these (Insurance is a must) you have to figure on at least US$2200/month…. At least!

And that is without putting money away for back home.

Risks.

I have to include this because it is a very important part of living overseas.

The incidence of divorce back home is around 30%, the incidence of divorce among our expat assignees in Thailand is around 55%. (Almost double).

The reasons are many, dislocation from home and family, guys running off with local girls, women running off with other guys.

But my guess is the most common cause (and perhaps the cause of all the others above) is STRESS.

It can be extremely stressful, no, it is extremely stressful on a relationship to go live overseas in a totally foreign culture. This is only worse if there are money problems, only one partner is working or there are other relationship problems.

It is very typical for women to have difficulty settling in, especially if the husband is working (even if the wife is busy wit the kids). Thailand is a male orientated society, almost no provision is made for mothers and men are to a large extent treated as something special.

Questions to ask yourself.

To avoid making a mistake (and I am not saying that Thailand would be a mistake for you) you need to ask some questions of yourself.

Firstly and most importantly:

Why do you want to go to Thailand? You should be absolutely clear about this because when things go wrong (as they must from time to time) you both need to know why you have made the jump. No reasons are more valid than any others, but you must be clear what your reasons are.

Do you want to go for the same reasons and are those reasons compatible?

Are you talking to each other about this?

Are you both listening?

What is your long term plan and what are you going to do to achieve it?

If you ask these questions you will at least know what you are about. Believe me, I’ve met dozens who have failed in Thailand because they did not have a purpose in their lives.

STOP DON’T Gos.

The following is absolutely true.

If you leave home with an unresolved problem, it will grow, smolder and rot while you are in Thailand.

Recent Divorce or relationship breakdown (Past year).

Recent bereavement (Past two years)

Any kind of an addiction, particularly alcohol

Debt

If these figure in your recent life, sort them out or take time to get over them before you leave.

Making a go of it.

After eleven years in Thailand I have met people who did well and people who did very badly, most to be honest get by OK but wives tend to say they are glad to go home and would be reluctant to come back.

Of the people that make a go of it, ALL live very normal lives while in Thailand. They work hard and take part in the local community. They carry their lives and responsibilities to Thailand and live much as they would at home.

They ALL have purpose in their lives and almost all plan to leave after a spell of perhaps 2 or three years.

Residency.

In theory a foreigner can get a residence permit that allows them to live and stay in Thailand just like a Thai. In reality it is extremely difficult, almost impossible.

The Thais give a maximum of 200 residence permits to non Asians per year. As a foreigner you can apply after four continuous years in country. I know three people who have received these (all after over twenty years in country).

I have applied, five times, with the backing of my employers, a university and the local head of education (I'm not a teacher but he is a personal friend I met through the Lions Club).

I’ve been asked to reapply next year.

Without this document you will need a Resident B (Non-immigrant Visa) to be allowed to stay in Thailand and apply for a work permit. I have both the visa and the work permit and therefore do not need to do Visa runs.

Visa runs are regular (expensive and disruptive) trips across the boarder to get new entry visas. They are not a viable option for families.

Home Ownership.

You can own a condo, you cannot own a house or land.

Other Information.

I hope this has at least helped you understand the pitfalls, if you are going ahead with this plan and need advice on schools, housing or healthcare please feel free to write and ask for info.

There are expat societies that can help, most nationalities have their own clubs and societies i.e. there is a British Club, a Canadian society etc and there are various clubs that can give advice (see suggestions above).

Please do be careful though, Thailand often appeals to people who want to throw away responsibilities and cares (usually guys in their late forties and fifties), they’ll often tell you there are no cares, no problems. But then if their life objectives are cheap beer and cheep prostitutes, they will look at Thailand in a different light than the most of us.

As parents of young children we have to be a bit more careful.

Here are some absolute rules:

Never burn your bridges, you might not settle and you are very unlikely to get residence if you and your wife are both foreigners and both below retirement age.

Accept that any money you take to Thailand will stay in Thailand.

Nobody sells a business that is making money in Thailand.

Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Sorry it’s so negative, but without the support of friends and a community of other expats I’ve seen too many people mess it up.

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Guest house - that's the first posting of yours with which I have (almost) wholly agreed.

About owning a house - the land it stands on must be Thai owned. The house itself can be farang-controlled - form a company, 51% Thai, lend the major Thai holder the money for the land, with the shares as a security. Use the company to buy house. You have 49% of the ownership, plus voting rights of the Thai entity.

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Guesthouse makes real valid points to which I will make one elaboration. When the US State Dept. assigns male personnel to LOS they do so with the proviso that if they do not have a strong marriage, it will fail in Thailand. :o

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middle class in thailand, mean that you or family own a decent 2-3 bedroom home (condo), each person would have a car to get around, have a good and secure job or a business, they can afford a vacation trip abroad every year, and go to pataya or phuket or samui on public holiday, 50k-100k a month salary would get you that, if couple more power to you. im sorry to say if you make less than 50k a month it wouldn't be consider middle class, half your money would go to rent or morgage, the other half won't do, by the end of the month you are lucky to save 10k

I think you've been hanging around too many hi-so's. A good Thai friend of mine is about 50 years old and has worked for 25 years at the Government Savings bank. He makes 30,000 baht a month. He owns a 2 bedroom house and a new pick up. He has never been overseas as he can not afford it. For Thai holidays, he will often drive 10 hours plus to various locations in Thailand. His wife is a school teacher and brings home about 10,000 a month. They have two teenagers, both in school. This family is genuine middle class.

Any family where all members are making 50k to 100k a month in salary, vacationing overseas and driving their own cars is above and beyond middle class.

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there is a different from making end meat and being middle class.

as for hi-so's they don't drive car the have driver and they don'y drive toyota and honda, they don't live in houses they live in something call mansion, their land is as big as an California Ranch, they take their vacation in first class, actually they take a vacation when ever they feel like it, what ever they want, they buy it without even a thought, their kid are send to the best school there is, they have dozen of maid running around the house.

being middle class is one step below that.

ChiangMaiThai you honestly believe that a person making 30k a month would consider middle class

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Middle Class is much more than income and is actually defined by outlook and attitudes to:

education

home ownership

passtimes

cultural interests etc.

I know extremely wealthy people who are working class in all their outlooks and i know quite poor people who are decidedly middle class.

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ChiangMaiThai you honestly believe that a person making 30k a month would consider middle class

Absolutely, as long as they are outside of Bangkok. The step below the hi-so's you describe is still very much affluent, just not the level that will get people talking.

Ask yourself how much doctors, teachers, policemen etc. make. Do you consider all of these people poor?

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What are you asking? Are you interesting in what income is required to be Thai middle class, or do you wonder how much money you need to live like a middle class Thai?

There isn't much middle class here anyway. People seem to scrap by or they have money. If they have money, they must be Chinese and they are stepping on a lot of normal Thai people and treating them like slaves. Similar to people way up there in the government. They are not Thai.

I would say a middle class Thai would have an income of 20000 - 50000 a month, enough money to have a car and a house. :o

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Isn't this trying to pigeon-hole Thais into a British class structure... (Upper / middle / working). It doesn't even work that well in Britain any more...

Aren't the layers of fairly well-off people in Thailand more like the following. (and I'm excluding anything specifically Chinese here).

Super-rich - People like Thaksin, who basically have enough money to have as many servants as they want, own extremely profitable businesses, and have multiple high-price imported cars, and enormous houses, with "grounds" rather than a garden. Children in private school in Europe or the US. (1m+ / month)

Rich - A mercedes, and a sports car (imported), bought new, large detached house with a garden, servants. Children in "International" school in Thailand, so that they grow up with good English, intention for children to study abroad for tertiary education. (250K+)

Affluent - children in a good Thai school, own detached home, air in every room, 2 cars, maybe one bought new, one maid. Looking for children to go to one of the better Thai Universitys. (Chulalongkorn, Kasetsart, etc.) (100K+)

Middle class - children in a moderately good Thai school, own home, car(s), bought second-hand, no maid, air in the bedroom(s), wife doesn't work, or works as a teacher. (40K+)

Which of these levels are you trying to live at..., and where? (It's a LOT more expensive to get a house in Bangkok than elsewhere, and don't get me started on trying to get a mortgage as a farang to buy a house on land that you're not allowed to own...).

International schools in Thailand are expensive (in relation to Thai incomes) at about 250-300K baht per year, per child. Personally - I live somewhere between Affluent and Rich above, in that the kids are in international school, but I'm living on a very good income from the UK, not a Thai one. Remember to factor in the costs of a good education if you have kids that are still school age...

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. It doesn't even work that well in Britain any more..

You are taking the Piss aren't you.

Go to Oxford/Cambridge/Ediburgh/St Andrews Universities, any medical school, absolutely any vetinary school, any firm of architects, the BBC, military officer messes - especially the army, any civil service job above the technical level, directors of museums, art galleries, orchestras, theaters, opera companies, the boards of the major industries, the boards of practically any public company.... need I go on?

Go and have a look, you will be pusded to find anyone from a working class background, anyone who didn't go to private schools (I'll challenge you to find any that don't have parents that also went to private schools)... they are all solidly middle class, those that are not are the exception and got there because they are not just as good as the people they have joined, they are better and had to prove it.

I'll tell you this too, the working class people that do make it through the maze loose their accents and anything else that identifies them as working class.

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. It doesn't even work that well in Britain any more..

You are taking the Piss aren't you.

Go to Oxford/Cambridge/Ediburgh/St Andrews Universities, any medical school, absolutely any vetinary school, any firm of architects, the BBC, military officer messes - especially the army, any civil service job above the technical level, directors of museums, art galleries, orchestras, theaters, opera companies, the boards of the major industries, the boards of practically any public company.... need I go on?

Go and have a look, you will be pusded to find anyone from a working class background, anyone who didn't go to private schools (I'll challenge you to find any that don't have parents that also went to private schools)... they are all solidly middle class, those that are not are the exception and got there because they are not just as good as the people they have joined, they are better and had to prove it.

I'll tell you this too, the working class people that do make it through the maze loose their accents and anything else that identifies them as working class.

I went to Edinburgh University. (note: Edinburgh is spelt with an n)

Parents made so little money that I even got a full grant (back in the days when they used to give people money to be a student, rather than asking you to pay). Neither of my parents went to University.

I also used to work with a Cambridge graduate who'd gone there from a state school in Liverpool.

I agree you will find more "public" school people at those Universities than in the population as a whole. Hardly surprising considering the money their parents have spent on their education though...

Military and Civil Service will have higher proportions of people whose parents had money simply because the ones that went to University with no money behind them have to get a job that pays more than that to pay off their overdraft... (Also the Civil service and the military don't care what degree you did... including the ones that are absolutely useless for getting a real job.)

As for losing my accent... - It was sort of necessary if I wanted anyone outside of Aberdeenshire to understand what I was saying. (I know a Japanese firm in London where one of the people in the office was from Edinburgh and had such a broad accent that whenever she was in a meeting with anyone Japanese there, they had to drag in someone else to translate what she said into English, and compared to my accent, hers was slight - as in even some English people understood her... :o )

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We're talking about middle class Thai families in the Kingdom?

Well the answer is no and such a thing shall never exist if greed, opulance and ignorance still result in the rich parking their arse's in the middle of the road and eating from the road. Som Tam anyone?

You will never see the day Thaimee agreeing with any graduate of university background...

Thaimee. Well just a thought. :o

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Hey BKK Mike, that definition puts me above Taksin!!!  Do you think I should tell him?  :o  :D  :D

Probably not a good idea... - He'll ask you to put up some money in his Liverpool bid.... :D

Anyway - it was meant as an idea of how much money you'd want to make to get that sort of lifestyle. A million baht a month will go a long way in Thailand...

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I feel like we are in a period of change here in America with regard to the middle class. I sense,and it is no secret,that there is errosion of it economically and that perhaps it is more difficult to define.

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There isn't much middle class here anyway. People seem to scrap by or they have money. ........

I would say a middle class Thai would have an income of 20000 - 50000 a month, enough money to have a car and a house.

This is correct....

If you calculate it and compare it with economic figures and purchasing power with other Asian countries like Japan or Singapore, the result is somewhere around baht 35.000,- to baht 40.000,-/monthly for a family with 2 children, owning a house and car...

This includes some income by part-time work of the wife..., considering expenses like school, some medical fees and so on....

Johann

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Thanx.what kind of price would a nice 1 br condo fetch in pattaya these days on or near the beach,would anyone have an idea?..I mean to purchase.Thanx again gents!

1 bedroom, living room, shower and kitchenette is the normal item.

About 70 sq.m. including balcony.

Say 1.8 to 2.5 million baht, depending on other items (how near the beach, swimming pool, UBC or Sophon cable, security, car parking, etc.) And the beach is nice to look at, from the tenth floor, but not worth visiting. Jomtien far better for beaches.

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QUOTE (guido @ Tue 2004-05-18, 19:01:49)

Thanx.what kind of price would a nice 1 br condo fetch in pattaya these days on or near the beach,would anyone have an idea?..I mean to purchase.Thanx again gents! 

1 bedroom, living room, shower and kitchenette is the normal item.

About 70 sq.m. including balcony.

Say 1.8 to 2.5 million baht, depending on other items (how near the beach, swimming pool, UBC or Sophon cable, security, car parking, etc.) And the beach is nice to look at, from the tenth floor, but not worth visiting. Jomtien far better for beaches.

Plus a parachute if you get one with a balcany or big windows and intend to have 'guests'! :o

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