Dependant Wife Visa My Tale Of Woe

[ozzydom]

Last April I applied for a non-imm O dependant wife visa after five years in L.O.S on retirement visa,s, the official at Nong Khai couldn,t be bothered changing things despite our insistance so he issued me another non-imm O retirement visa saying I had 800k in the bank and if I spent it down to 400k he would do the dependant wife visa this yearso we put in another two rai of fish ponds and stocked them. Then in late October I heard of the new reg,s so we went to Immigration in Nong Khai poste-haste and asked the same official what my situation was now as my pension is only about 28k per month,any-way after a heated discussion during which I lost the plot and told him my predicament was his fault for being to lazy to change my visa when I applied last april he relented and said OK bring me your bankbook showing 400k three months before my new visa is due and he would fix it

Well last Monday he backed down on that saying the big bosses told him he could not do it and I had to have an income of 40k per month ,now turning 28k into 40k is a trick beyond me .

Any advise on my best avenue of getting my non-imm o in April would be appreciated.

[DFCarlson]

IMHO... Oh boy, if there was ever a case for staying with what works, this is it. I would find a way to extend your permission to stay based on retirement again, this time based on an income/bank deposit combination, rather than try to get an extension based on marriage. What happens if something happens between you and your wife? What happens if something happens to your wife? You're out in the cold!

With 28K per month you would need an additional 464,000+ in the bank to renew your permission to stay based on retirement. Is there any way you can do that? Credit cards (temporary)? Cash in an investment?

Edited February 2, 2007 by DFCarlson

[kriswillems]

You can't get a 1 year extention based on marriage with 28K/month.

You'll need to go for a retirement visa.

For retirement you need 800K on a bank account OR 65000 baht per month income OR a combination of the two.

If you would 400.000 baht on an account, you need an income of 400.000/12 = 33333 baht/month.

If you would have 500.000 baht on an account, you would need 300.000/12 = 25000 baht/month.

See police order 7.22 (5)

The money on the bank account needs to be there for at least 3 months.

Maybe this is a solution for you?

[solo siam]

Couldnt you simply put an extra 20k baht in just onemonth, taking it immediately out (and not spending it) and then put that same money in again the next month and forever after, thus having a 48,000 baht income.

[DFCarlson]

Couldnt you simply put an extra 20k baht in just onemonth, taking it immediately out (and not spending it) and then put that same money in again the next month and forever after, thus having a 48,000 baht income.

I think you have to have your embassy certify your income, and back it up with supporting documents, just like for retirement pension income. Or, if it's your wife's income, don't you have to have tax receipts?

Why would you want to go with an extension based on marriage if you've successfully extended for 5 years based on retirement?

[Cyberstar]

... this yearso we put in another two rai of fish ponds and stocked them ...

Why? Were it just to have something that might bite while enjoying your retirement? Or were it with some business in mind? If the latter were the case - proceed to make the effort to make the business generate 12,000 baht a month (to your wife or you). Then - together with your 28,000 pension - you and your wife would make those 40,000 baht required for 1-year extensions based on marriage.

Edited February 2, 2007 by Cyberstar

[naka]

Last April I applied for a non-imm O dependant wife visa after five years in L.O.S on retirement visa,s, the official at Nong Khai couldn,t be bothered changing things despite our insistance so he issued me another non-imm O retirement visa saying I had 800k in the bank and if I spent it down to 400k he would do the dependant wife visa this yearso we put in another two rai of fish ponds and stocked them. Then in late October I heard of the new reg,s so we went to Immigration in Nong Khai poste-haste and asked the same official what my situation was now as my pension is only about 28k per month,any-way after a heated discussion during which I lost the plot and told him my predicament was his fault for being to lazy to change my visa when I applied last april he relented and said OK bring me your bankbook showing 400k three months before my new visa is due and he would fix it

Well last Monday he backed down on that saying the big bosses told him he could not do it and I had to have an income of 40k per month ,now turning 28k into 40k is a trick beyond me .

Any advise on my best avenue of getting my non-imm o in April would be appreciated.

That's a bummer Ozzydom

Naka.

[ozzydom]

You can't get a 1 year extention based on marriage with 28K/month.

You'll need to go for a retirement visa.

For retirement you need 800K on a bank account OR 65000 baht per month income OR a combination of the two.

If you would 400.000 baht on an account, you need an income of 400.000/12 = 33333 baht/month.

If you would have 500.000 baht on an account, you would need 300.000/12 = 25000 baht/month.

See police order 7.22 (5)

The money on the bank account needs to be there for at least 3 months.

Maybe this is a solution for you?

Thanks Kris and the other posters for your much appreciated words of advise, I forgot to mention I am over 65 so I think the income required is 40k per month, our fish farm is now generating a bit of income and I spoke to a local police officer here at Sawang who advised we register the business at Sakhon Nakhon and state that the business generates the sum I need to make up the shortfall between my pension and the 40k required. Am not sure of the tax rate here but it might be worth following up,any thoughts ? It seems that with 400k in the bank I only need to pay tax on an income of about 5k per month, are my maths close to the mark??

[ozzydom]

... this yearso we put in another two rai of fish ponds and stocked them ...

Why? Were it just to have something that might bite while enjoying your retirement? Or were it with some business in mind? If the latter were the case - proceed to make the effort to make the business generate 12,000 baht a month (to your wife or you). Then - together with your 28,000 pension - you and your wife would make those 40,000 baht required for 1-year extensions based on marriage.

Being an ex- commercial fisherman it was a logical step in order to give my wife an income after I have gone up the chimney, our first fish fry bought from the Govt Fisheries were supposed to be chemically sterilized, which allows them to grow a lot faster but either somebody forgot to do it or they forgot to tell the fish hence ponds full of baby fish and very slow growth, but the new ponds are looking ok so far.

[lopburi3]

The retirement is no longer based on age bands and the income requirement is 65k per month or 800k in bank account with a three month record. No exceptions unless grandfathered under old rules. You can not use wife income for this and you can not normally use any local income as you are not supposed to be working. I do not believe you would require the 3 month record this year so if you could borrow 400k you could probably obtain another retirement extension of stay and then work on building up your savings again.

The other option is change to marriage. Tax rate here is not that high. Income should be in wife name as assume you do not have a work permit. With total family income of 40k per month you should be able to obtain extension under marriage provisions. But this will require three months records of tax payment.

[ozzydom]

The retirement is no longer based on age bands and the income requirement is 65k per month or 800k in bank account with a three month record. No exceptions unless grandfathered under old rules. You can not use wife income for this and you can not normally use any local income as you are not supposed to be working. I do not believe you would require the 3 month record this year so if you could borrow 400k you could probably obtain another retirement extension of stay and then work on building up your savings again.

The other option is change to marriage. Tax rate here is not that high. Income should be in wife name as assume you do not have a work permit. With total family income of 40k per month you should be able to obtain extension under marriage provisions. But this will require three months records of tax payment.

Thanks Lop, I suppose my other alternative is to fly to Brisbane and get a non imm O or go to Vientienne and get a 3 month non imm O every 12 weeks, I only just found out these could be had in Laos.

[ozzydom]

The retirement is no longer based on age bands and the income requirement is 65k per month or 800k in bank account with a three month record. No exceptions unless grandfathered under old rules. You can not use wife income for this and you can not normally use any local income as you are not supposed to be working. I do not believe you would require the 3 month record this year so if you could borrow 400k you could probably obtain another retirement extension of stay and then work on building up your savings again.

The other option is change to marriage. Tax rate here is not that high. Income should be in wife name as assume you do not have a work permit. With total family income of 40k per month you should be able to obtain extension under marriage provisions. But this will require three months records of tax payment.

Thanks Lop, I suppose my other alternative is to fly to Brisbane and get a non imm O or go to Vientienne and get a 3 month non imm O every 12 weeks, I only just found out these could be had in Laos.

Maybe Lopburi 3 Could advise me of whether the 12k per month I need to make the family income of 40 k is 12k net of thai income tax or gross income before tax.

A google search shows the Thai income tax rates as follows,

0-50,000 no tax

50,001-100,000 =5% tax

100,001-500,000= 10% tax

every taxpayer gets a 30,000 bt personal tax free allowance plus child allowances if applicable.

If the 12k or 144k per annum is before tax I guesstimate that to deduct the 50k (pro rata )tax allowance and with out taking the 30k (pro rata) into account the tax payable on 12k per month is only about 390bt per month .

Conversly if they require 12k net then ahigher gross would have to be used then subtract the allowances and tax to arrive at 12k.

whats your thoughts Lop?

[Cyberstar]

Immi wants to see the last 3 months tax filing for the gross income of 12,000/month - for which tax amounts to zero. Your data are outdated. Check out Revenue Dep's site on:

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

[ozzydom]

Immi wants to see the last 3 months tax filing for the gross income of 12,000/month - for which tax amounts to zero. Your data are outdated. Check out Revenue Dep's site on:

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

Update.......Thought I,d met some "hounds from hel_l" at Immigration over the years but the female we copped at the Dept of Revenues today put them in the shade by streets.

As advised we went to declare income of 14k per month, but SHE says 'that is not taxable so you cant declare it, plus the wife had to declare 12 months in advance and pay the tax now, so I say,s (thru my interpreter,the wife) how can she do that? the fish might die tomorrow and she will have no income,to which the B*^%$ jumped out of her chair screaming "#$@*& farangs know nothing.

Well "she" exitted the office so a guy came over looking very sheepish,so I asked him whats the story with the wife not being able to declare one or three months income ,so Mr. Sheepish says "she big boss", well just then our local restruant owner comes in to declare his MONTHLY income, so Mr Foot in Mouth ME says how can he declare monthly and my wife cant, "no answer came the reply.

Any way to get a receipt we had to pay tax on monthly income of 28k per month paid in advance for one year, and that was the best we could achieve. of course a village girl in the face of a beaurocrat,the missus turning to water didnt help. So tonight I kicked SH*T outa my dog ( didnt make me feel any better) so I had to give her a fillet steak to get back in the dogs good books.

ozzydom

[kriswillems]

Any way to get a receipt we had to pay tax on monthly income of 28k per month paid in advance for one year, and that was the best we could achieve. of course a village girl in the face of a beaurocrat,the missus turning to water didnt help. So tonight I kicked SH*T outa my dog ( didnt make me feel any better) so I had to give her a fillet steak to get back in the dogs good books.

ozzydom

Is your wife self-employed or is she working for a business (the fish farm company)?

How much tax did you've to pay on that (28K/month)?

[kriswillems]

The retirement is no longer based on age bands and the income requirement is 65k per month or 800k in bank account with a three month record. No exceptions unless grandfathered under old rules. You can not use wife income for this and you can not normally use any local income as you are not supposed to be working. I do not believe you would require the 3 month record this year so if you could borrow 400k you could probably obtain another retirement extension of stay and then work on building up your savings again.

The other option is change to marriage. Tax rate here is not that high. Income should be in wife name as assume you do not have a work permit. With total family income of 40k per month you should be able to obtain extension under marriage provisions. But this will require three months records of tax payment.

Lopburi3,

police order 7.21 (5) tells that it's still possible to use a combination of income and savings. So borrowing 100K would be more than sufficient to apply based on retirement. This would have probably been a better solution that declaring income (on the name of his wife) and and paying taxes.

Edited February 15, 2007 by kriswillems

[ozzydom]

Any way to get a receipt we had to pay tax on monthly income of 28k per month paid in advance for one year, and that was the best we could achieve. of course a village girl in the face of a beaurocrat,the missus turning to water didnt help. So tonight I kicked SH*T outa my dog ( didnt make me feel any better) so I had to give her a fillet steak to get back in the dogs good books.

ozzydom

Is your wife self-employed or is she working for a business (the fish farm company)?

How much tax did you've to pay on that (28K/month)?

Self employed Kris, its her farm. tax was 2009bt . I asked how she could claim overhead costs, fish food etc, the reply ."dont know".The restruant owner said in front of them that we should have deducted costs and declared the nett amount to which we were told to go now as more people waiting..I got what I wanted in way of proof of income so I called it quits.

[lopburi3]

The retirement is no longer based on age bands and the income requirement is 65k per month or 800k in bank account with a three month record. No exceptions unless grandfathered under old rules. You can not use wife income for this and you can not normally use any local income as you are not supposed to be working. I do not believe you would require the 3 month record this year so if you could borrow 400k you could probably obtain another retirement extension of stay and then work on building up your savings again.

The other option is change to marriage. Tax rate here is not that high. Income should be in wife name as assume you do not have a work permit. With total family income of 40k per month you should be able to obtain extension under marriage provisions. But this will require three months records of tax payment.

Lopburi3,

police order 7.21 (5) tells that it's still possible to use a combination of income and savings. So borrowing 100K would be more than sufficient to apply based on retirement. This would have probably been a better solution that declaring income (on the name of his wife) and and paying taxes.

I missed that because he was not using that method when he was on retirement. A problem could have been that he does not have the 3 month record so it will again be "will they accept it". I believe if the full 800k were available for retirement and his history they would be able to accept it (as this seems to be what he used before as was talked out of using) but not sure a combination would be, or even if poster can have his pension verified as he did not seem to use that method before. But you are right that would would lower the bank deposit requirement if it were accepted. But suspect the family income method will turn out to be viable cost wise in the long run and make life easier over time as there will be no need to tie up excess bank deposits and the farm will be a respected tax payer over time.

[ozzydom]

The retirement is no longer based on age bands and the income requirement is 65k per month or 800k in bank account with a three month record. No exceptions unless grandfathered under old rules. You can not use wife income for this and you can not normally use any local income as you are not supposed to be working. I do not believe you would require the 3 month record this year so if you could borrow 400k you could probably obtain another retirement extension of stay and then work on building up your savings again.

The other option is change to marriage. Tax rate here is not that high. Income should be in wife name as assume you do not have a work permit. With total family income of 40k per month you should be able to obtain extension under marriage provisions. But this will require three months records of tax payment.

Lopburi3,

police order 7.21 (5) tells that it's still possible to use a combination of income and savings. So borrowing 100K would be more than sufficient to apply based on retirement. This would have probably been a better solution that declaring income (on the name of his wife) and and paying taxes.

I missed that because he was not using that method when he was on retirement. A problem could have been that he does not have the 3 month record so it will again be "will they accept it". I believe if the full 800k were available for retirement and his history they would be able to accept it (as this seems to be what he used before as was talked out of using) but not sure a combination would be, or even if poster can have his pension verified as he did not seem to use that method before. But you are right that would would lower the bank deposit requirement if it were accepted. But suspect the family income method will turn out to be viable cost wise in the long run and make life easier over time as there will be no need to tie up excess bank deposits and the farm will be a respected tax payer over time.

I made a mistake in previous post ,we paid tax on 250k per annum which is 20;800 per month not 28k, but it gives us combined income of 50k and I have to go Embassy Bangkok to get a notarised letter re my pension ,which they asked for so I will apply for my new visa down there, and see what transpires.

[kriswillems]

I am surprised you pay such a small amount of tax.

That 250K you pay tax on is that turnover or profit?

I am not sure the immigration department is going to accept turnover of a self-employed person as income. They might look at the profit (turnover - expenses). For the expenses most self-employed people use the fixed deduction (that depends the branch of business, between 65-85%). Because you didn't declare the expenses yourself you're probably also using the standard deduction for "fish farms".

Anyway, I would apply with the tax you're paying now and please let us know about the outcome. My wife will also be self-employed in Thailand.

Edited February 15, 2007 by kriswillems

[ozzydom]

I am surprised you pay such a small amount of tax.

That 250K you pay tax on is that turnover or profit?

I am not sure the immigration department is going to accept turnover of a self-employed person as income. They might look at the profit (turnover - expenses). For the expenses most self-employed people use the fixed deduction (that depends the branch of business, between 65-85%). Because you didn't declare the expenses yourself you're probably also using the standard deduction for "fish farms".

Anyway, I would apply with the tax you're paying now and please let us know about the outcome. My wife will also be self-employed in Thailand.

I have the documentation in front of me but its gobblygook to me, what I can make out is that they have deducted 80% for expenses I expect,plus the wifes 60k tax free allowance. the actual tax rate is 250,000 x 0.005 = 1250 bt. Iwill take it to Nong Khai and run it past them next week.

[kriswillems]

I am very curious about the outcome.

The 80% deduction (80% of 250K) is the deduction for your expenses in the farm.

The 60K is not a deduction but it's a tax-free allowance for your wife (30K) and her spouce (30K)(you).

Because your wife wouldn't have to pay income tax following the normal rules (250K*0.2 -100K - 60K <0) and your wife is self-employed the tax will be 0.5% of your wifes income (0,5% of 250K).

Sunbelt ever explained to me on this forum that the actual income that will be used by the immigration department is the income AFTER the deduction. So, in your case that would be only 50000 B/year or 4167 B/month. But that was a while ago and at that moment I suspect it was still not very clear how immigration would look at the income of self-employed people.

Apparently the immigration department looks at the imcome before deduction for employees (this is called assessable income), so there's a big chance they might do the same with self-employed people. Employees get a 40% deduction not exceeding 60K.

Edited February 16, 2007 by kriswillems

[ozzydom]

I am very curious about the outcome.

The 80% deduction (80% of 250K) is the deduction for your expenses in the farm.

The 60K is not a deduction but it's a tax-free allowance for your wife (30K) and her spouce (30K)(you).

Because your wife wouldn't have to pay income tax following the normal rules (250K*0.2 -100K - 60K <0) and your wife is self-employed the tax will be 0.5% of your wifes income (0,5% of 250K).

Sunbelt ever explained to me on this forum that the actual income that will be used by the immigration department is the income AFTER the deduction. So, in your case that would be only 50000 B/year or 4167 B/month. But that was a while ago and at that moment I suspect it was still not very clear how immigration would look at the income of self-employed people.

Apparently the immigration department looks at the imcome before deduction for employees (this is called assessable income), so there's a big chance they might do the same with self-employed people. Employees get a 40% deduction not exceeding 60K.

I,m completely in the dark with this one Kris, The wife tells me that the last guy we spoke to said they had done this for farangs before in relation to visa,s ,maybe Sunbelt can advise me if they read these posts.

[kriswillems]

I,m completely in the dark with this one Kris, The wife tells me that the last guy we spoke to said they had done this for farangs before in relation to visa,s ,maybe Sunbelt can advise me if they read these posts.

I went to the tax-department in january and they've also told me that other farangs that have self-employed wifes did the same and that immigration would look at the income before deduction, so I guess we're safe.

Maybe the reason they let you pay the tax upfront (1 year) is that you need prove of 3 months tax-paying at the immigration department.

I think you'll be ok.

I'll be applying for my 1 year extention in august.

[ozzydom]

I,m completely in the dark with this one Kris, The wife tells me that the last guy we spoke to said they had done this for farangs before in relation to visa,s ,maybe Sunbelt can advise me if they read these posts.

I went to the tax-department in january and they've also told me that other farangs that have self-employed wifes did the same and that immigration would look at the income before deduction, so I guess we're safe.

Maybe the reason they let you pay the tax upfront (1 year) is that you need prove of 3 months tax-paying at the immigration department.

I think you'll be ok.

I'll be applying for my 1 year extention in august.

My understanding was/is that you declare your taxable income, (verified by the restruanter at the tax office)monthly but they were most adament that they would not do one or three month for us so I got fed up and said do what you want as long as I get a receipt for earnings of 14k per month for Immigration and thats how we got to where we are.

[ozzydom]

I,m completely in the dark with this one Kris, The wife tells me that the last guy we spoke to said they had done this for farangs before in relation to visa,s ,maybe Sunbelt can advise me if they read these posts.

I went to the tax-department in january and they've also told me that other farangs that have self-employed wifes did the same and that immigration would look at the income before deduction, so I guess we're safe.

Maybe the reason they let you pay the tax upfront (1 year) is that you need prove of 3 months tax-paying at the immigration department.

I think you'll be ok.

I'll be applying for my 1 year extention in august.

My understanding was/is that you declare your taxable income, (verified by the restruanter at the tax office)monthly but they were most adament that they would not do one or three month for us so I got fed up and said do what you want as long as I get a receipt for earnings of 14k per month for Immigration and thats how we got to where we are.

And the saga continues, today we took the wifes tax declaration and payment receipt to Nong Khai Imm ,after getting through to the bloke that we wanted him to check whether the tax papers were to his satisfaction,he wanted to know where the business registration for the farm was,well thats the first we had heard of that one. maybe Lopburi can enlighten me about it.

I asked him apart from that do the tax papers meet their requirements,he says I will look at them when you bring business papers.

Then blow me down he said why dont you do visa today ,I said I have to go to my Embassy and have pension certified yet, and it not due for a few weeks yet.

He asked me how much pension I get ,I says 30k per month thats why we have to put in some of my wifes income ,to make up the 40k.

He then said do you have 420k in bank ? I says yes ! so he says show me bankbook and I do 1 yr Retirement visa now.I replied "I want a supporting Thai wife visa" So he says go get business paper first for that and when you bring everything I will send to big boss and see if he OK it.

So thats where we are at ,another day wasted.

[kriswillems]

Thanks for the update. I also don't know what a business registration paper is. But my guess is that your wife doesn't have a business and thus no business registration. She is self-employed.

I think the immigration officer is confused.

Business registration papers are only necessarry when applying for a non-immigrant-B visa and you would be working in the business.

Edited February 27, 2007 by kriswillems

[kratindaeng]

I cant help but think if you had avoided the 'heated discussion' and lost face, maybe he would have been a little bit more persuasive in your circumastances?

Just a thought, but anyway good luck hope it works out for you.

KD

[ozzydom]

I cant help but think if you had avoided the 'heated discussion' and lost face, maybe he would have been a little bit more persuasive in your circumastances?

Just a thought, but anyway good luck hope it works out for you.

KD

Are you reading a different posting,kratindaeng, I was there and dont recall any heated discussion or anybody losing face.

As I said in my post, we went solely to have them check if the tax papers we had obtained as per their previous instructions were suitable and met approval.

For a farmer selling fish to have to have a business name was a new one on me and was not on they list of documents they provided us.

[kratindaeng]

QUOTE OP...."any-way after a heated discussion during which I lost the plot and told him my predicament was his fault for being to lazy to change my visa"....

KD