Western Buddhists

[camerata]

Or as Sayadaw U Pandita said: "If two people are stuck up to their necks in mud, can one help the other out?"

[banchang]

I think it means that the west in general (lets not include the Americans)are seeing through religion for the sham it is. Some people feel the need for a replacement for this crutch and cherry pick from the mystic east the more obscure the better, it goes down so well at dinner parties.

Why not include Americans?

I didnt include Americans as they seem to be heading into a pit of christian fundimentalism led by a man that belives the earth is only six thousand years old! Bush found time once a week to get spiritual gideance from Ted Haggard. This only ended when Ted was found out as a drug and rent boy user. God bless America.

[thaibebop]

I think it means that the west in general (lets not include the Americans)are seeing through religion for the sham it is. Some people feel the need for a replacement for this crutch and cherry pick from the mystic east the more obscure the better, it goes down so well at dinner parties.

Why not include Americans?

I didnt include Americans as they seem to be heading into a pit of christian fundimentalism led by a man that belives the earth is only six thousand years old! Bush found time once a week to get spiritual gideance from Ted Haggard. This only ended when Ted was found out as a drug and rent boy user. God bless America.

Well, I can say for sure that not all of us are ga-ga over god.

[banchang]

I think it means that the west in general (lets not include the Americans)are seeing through religion for the sham it is. Some people feel the need for a replacement for this crutch and cherry pick from the mystic east the more obscure the better, it goes down so well at dinner parties.

Why not include Americans?

I didnt include Americans as they seem to be heading into a pit of christian fundimentalism led by a man that belives the earth is only six thousand years old! Bush found time once a week to get spiritual gideance from Ted Haggard. This only ended when Ted was found out as a drug and rent boy user. God bless America.

Well, I can say for sure that not all of us are ga-ga over god.

Yes Thaibebob my rant was aimed at the system and thoes that control it I realy didnt mean to criticise any free thinking Americans sorry.

[thaibebop]

I think it means that the west in general (lets not include the Americans)are seeing through religion for the sham it is. Some people feel the need for a replacement for this crutch and cherry pick from the mystic east the more obscure the better, it goes down so well at dinner parties.

Why not include Americans?

I didnt include Americans as they seem to be heading into a pit of christian fundimentalism led by a man that belives the earth is only six thousand years old! Bush found time once a week to get spiritual gideance from Ted Haggard. This only ended when Ted was found out as a drug and rent boy user. God bless America.

Well, I can say for sure that not all of us are ga-ga over god.

Yes Thaibebob my rant was aimed at the system and thoes that control it I realy didnt mean to criticise any free thinking Americans sorry.

No offense. You do have something of a point though. People like myself seem to be far and few between or are just silent right now, when we should be making noise.

[thaibebop]

Okay I am wondering what you guys have found when encountering other western Buddhists or western buddhists if you are not western yourself. I am finding some to be way too touchy. Some very dogmatic and some very hippie dippie. I am wondering what Buddhism will become under western influence I can only see what western buddhists do and say as any indication of what changes might occur. Buddhism changed when it went east so what changes can we expect?

[sabaijai]

Seems like we've had a thread on this before. Not that that the topic doesn't deserve another one. If I can find the earlier thread, I'll post a link here, then we can build on the earlier discussion.

One general comment: I think you'll see the full range of human nature among Buddhists from every quarter.

[T_Dog]

This might be a bit of a tangent, but wanted to recommend the book "An Awakened Life" by Christopher Titmuss. He is a western guy that became a monk here in Thailand and India and is very respected. The book is great, and one of the best books I have ever read. No superstition included, and he relates to a lot of Thais very well.

[thaibebop]

Seems like we've had a thread on this before. Not that that the topic doesn't deserve another one. If I can find the earlier thread, I'll post a link here, then we can build on the earlier discussion.

One general comment: I think you'll see the full range of human nature among Buddhists from every quarter.

Oh sure, sure. I might have started it and forgot, I do that sort of thing. Yes, a wide range of people who are Buddhist. I just wonder about certain attitudes and view points and wonder if this only things western buddhists say and do.

I am also wondering what western buddhists might end up doing to impact Buddhism in Asia as well as in the west.

[garro]

I think it has a lot to do with where your introduction to Buddhism first occurred.

I became interested in Buddhism in my early teens while practicing martial arts.

I came at Buddhism using a hodgepodge of approaches and just labeled it all Buddhism.

I probably absorbed quite a few Mahayana tendencies which stay with me today.

The thing I like about Western Buddhism is its willingness to try new things.

Most Western Buddhists are probably more serious about their belief than the average person who has been brought up with it.

I would imagine that Western Buddhists, who became attracted to Buddhism through staying in Thailand, would be mostly influenced by Thai Theravadin. So are they Western Buddhists?

The Buddhist path has adapted to every country it took root. Despite organisations such as the FWBO, I think the most exciting things in Buddhism are occurring in the west. I however tend to just be interested in the Theravadin approach these days.

Edited November 19, 2007 by garro

[thaibebop]

This might be a bit of a tangent, but wanted to recommend the book "An Awakened Life" by Christopher Titmuss. He is a western guy that became a monk here in Thailand and India and is very respected. The book is great, and one of the best books I have ever read. No superstition included, and he relates to a lot of Thais very well.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[sabaijai]

I am also wondering what western buddhists might end up doing to impact Buddhism in Asia as well as in the west.

Interesting question, one I pondered myself while on bindabat with western monks from Wat Pa Nanachat in Beung Wai, Ubon. Or listening to Aj Sumedho, an American monk, giving a dhamma talk, in Thai, to Thai Buddhists.

[sabaijai]

Thaibebop, you were right, you did inititate this topic once before, so I'm merging it with the older thread to link earlier comments, all worth reading!

[camerata]

A year or two ago the Post had an article about a farang monk who was popular with urban middle-class Thais because he had more in common with them than the average upcountry Thai monk. I think it was Ajahn Jayasaro. Ajahn Brahm's talks in Bangkok are popular too.

Overall, though, I don't see Western Buddhism having much influence here. If we are talking about Buddhism without superstition and an emphasis on core teachings we just need to look at what influence the Forest Tradition and Suan Mokkh Tradition had on the average Thai. Ven Buddhadasa was a real reformer, but it seems Thais don't want reform. Modern urban Thais who are serious about Buddhism seem to end up getting involved with Dhammakaya these days.

[chutai]

Overall, though, I don't see Western Buddhism having much influence here.

To be honest I'm not sure what Western Buddhism is ? In the west there are those that are eclectic (FWBO, for instance) others whose lineage can be traced to specific Mahayana or Theravadan traditions.

The impotant thing to remember I think, is that Buddhism is always - or should be - respectful of the culture in which it's practiced. Therfore, there may be slightly different decorations on the cake depending on the culture - but the ingredients remain the same

[jamesc2000]

I really don't understand any of this my buddhism is better than your buddhism posts.

Btw can I just ask if your buddhism better than Buddha's buddhism?

[Brucenkhamen]

Well, yes, that was the point I was making. That many are treating Buddhism as a new age movement rather than the respected philosophy it is.

I think your observation has a lot of truth in it. Whether it's good or bad I'm not sure.

My world view is pretty much minimalist Theravadin Buddhist. I've been to a lot of different retreat centres around the world and in contact with different Insight meditation groups and I often feel in the minority. I often feel the new age world view is dominant and there is an expectation that I because I'm on the retreat I should see things the same.

As somebody pointed out when Buddhism travelled to different countries in Asia it mixed with the local belief systems, that could be it's strength, though when you look at the state of Buddhism in Thailand you can see it is also a weakness. This appears to be what is now happening in the West.

At the end of the day if something is skillful and leads to awakening, use it, if not then discard it. Everybody has to walk their own path to travel towards enlightenment, if they want to take the scenic route I don't begrudge them that.

Edited November 19, 2007 by Brucenkhamen

[chutai]

I really don't understand any of this my buddhism is better than your buddhism posts.

Btw can I just ask if your buddhism better than Buddha's buddhism?

James, you may enjoy this talk by my favourite Theravadan chappie.

[thaibebop]

Thaibebop, you were right, you did inititate this topic once before, so I'm merging it with the older thread to link earlier comments, all worth reading!

I am not surpirsed! My wife wonders that I don't forget my way home sometimes!

[thaibebop]

A year or two ago the Post had an article about a farang monk who was popular with urban middle-class Thais because he had more in common with them than the average upcountry Thai monk. I think it was Ajahn Jayasaro. Ajahn Brahm's talks in Bangkok are popular too.

Overall, though, I don't see Western Buddhism having much influence here. If we are talking about Buddhism without superstition and an emphasis on core teachings we just need to look at what influence the Forest Tradition and Suan Mokkh Tradition had on the average Thai. Ven Buddhadasa was a real reformer, but it seems Thais don't want reform. Modern urban Thais who are serious about Buddhism seem to end up getting involved with Dhammakaya these days.

What did he have in common with the middle class Thais?

Yes, I don't think right now western Buddhists will have a major impact within Thailand, or any Theravadian country, but what about the impact on the religion as a whole? Are western Buddhists making in imprint at all in East Asia?

[thaibebop]

I really don't understand any of this my buddhism is better than your buddhism posts.

Btw can I just ask if your buddhism better than Buddha's buddhism?

I think I see what you are getting at, but my post earlier were making the point of people professing Buddhism, teaching or sharing with others Buddhism, yet they are so not close to practicing any of the teachings. Is this bad or good for Buddhism as a whole?

[thaibebop]

I think it has a lot to do with where your introduction to Buddhism first occurred.

I became interested in Buddhism in my early teens while practicing martial arts.

I came at Buddhism using a hodgepodge of approaches and just labeled it all Buddhism.

I probably absorbed quite a few Mahayana tendencies which stay with me today.

The thing I like about Western Buddhism is its willingness to try new things.

Most Western Buddhists are probably more serious about their belief than the average person who has been brought up with it.

I would imagine that Western Buddhists, who became attracted to Buddhism through staying in Thailand, would be mostly influenced by Thai Theravadin. So are they Western Buddhists? Oh, Great point!! When does the east/west distinction drop? Many religions look for such wide reaching unity, will Buddhism have this? Why do you think, or why if you don't think so?

The Buddhist path has adapted to every country it took root. Despite organisations such as the FWBO, I think the most exciting things in Buddhism are occurring in the west. I however tend to just be interested in the Theravadin approach these days.

FWBO? I am sorry, but I don't believe I have ever heard of this. What is it?

[chutai]

Friends of the Western Buddhist Order (FWBO) was formed by an Englishman who goes by the name of Sangharakshita, himself once an ordained Theravadan Bhikkhu. Although he also claims to have also studied under different Tibetan Mahayana Rinpoches. The sister organisation, Trailokya Bauddha Mahasangha Sahayaka Gana (TBMSG) has a huge membership in India.

Some years ago there were scandals of a sexual nature and accusations of acting like a cult, which lead the organisation to close their Croydon, London branch as I remember.

However, they have by all accounts sorted themselves out now on that score. They put emphasis on the eclectic ("ecumenicity") and I think that they may incorporate things like yoga and Buddhist psychotherapy.

Despite having a somewhat contentious reputation in mainstream Buddhism, I have read non members saying that they provide a good general grounding in Buddhist thought ?

They're the second fastest growing Buddhist group in Europe. In the West more generally, I'm not sure.

[camerata]

What did he have in common with the middle class Thais?

An urban upbringing and university education.

Yes, I don't think right now western Buddhists will have a major impact within Thailand, or any Theravadian country, but what about the impact on the religion as a whole? Are western Buddhists making in imprint at all in East Asia?

Well, western Buddhists sure made a big impact on Sri Lanka in the past but if by East Asia you mean China/Korea/Japan I doubt there is any impact at all.

[camerata]

Well, yes, that was the point I was making. That many are treating Buddhism as a new age movement rather than the respected philosophy it is.

I think some people are just confused about what is "Western Buddhism" and what is New Age. To me, Western Buddhism is Buddhism with most of the cultural baggage stripped away, but incorporating other stuff (yoga, psychotherapy, other religious teachings, etc) as long as they don't go against the core Buddhist teachings. The Insight Meditation Centre and FWBO are examples.

New Age seems to be a hodge-podge of just about everything that can be considered spiritual as opposed to materialistic, from Indigo Children to Shirley I-was-Cleopatra-in-a-former-life Maclaine.

[thaibebop]

Friends of the Western Buddhist Order (FWBO) was formed by an Englishman who goes by the name of Sangharakshita, himself once an ordained Theravadan Bhikkhu. Although he also claims to have also studied under different Tibetan Mahayana Rinpoches. The sister organisation, Trailokya Bauddha Mahasangha Sahayaka Gana (TBMSG) has a huge membership in India.

Some years ago there were scandals of a sexual nature and accusations of acting like a cult, which lead the organisation to close their Croydon, London branch as I remember.

However, they have by all accounts sorted themselves out now on that score. They put emphasis on the eclectic ("ecumenicity") and I think that they may incorporate things like yoga and Buddhist psychotherapy.

Despite having a somewhat contentious reputation in mainstream Buddhism, I have read non members saying that they provide a good general grounding in Buddhist thought ?

They're the second fastest growing Buddhist group in Europe. In the West more generally, I'm not sure.

Wow, I was completely unaware of them. Maybe they haven't reached America yet.

[thaibebop]

What did he have in common with the middle class Thais?

An urban upbringing and university education.

Yes, I don't think right now western Buddhists will have a major impact within Thailand, or any Theravadian country, but what about the impact on the religion as a whole? Are western Buddhists making in imprint at all in East Asia?

Well, western Buddhists sure made a big impact on Sri Lanka in the past but if by East Asia you mean China/Korea/Japan I doubt there is any impact at all.

Tell me about Sri Lanka if you can, please? I haven't heard anything about this.

[thaibebop]

Well, yes, that was the point I was making. That many are treating Buddhism as a new age movement rather than the respected philosophy it is.

I think some people are just confused about what is "Western Buddhism" and what is New Age. To me, Western Buddhism is Buddhism with most of the cultural baggage stripped away, but incorporating other stuff (yoga, psychotherapy, other religious teachings, etc) as long as they don't go against the core Buddhist teachings. The Insight Meditation Centre and FWBO are examples.

New Age seems to be a hodge-podge of just about everything that can be considered spiritual as opposed to materialistic, from Indigo Children to Shirley I-was-Cleopatra-in-a-former-life Maclaine.

I like your definition of western Buddhism, I feel that is what I take away most from Buddhism. Leave the ghost stuff alone, it doesn't help. I have never really found anything of value in the New Age movement. Nothing concrete that one can even began working from. Just think happy thoughts, that really doesn't help at all.

[sabaijai]

What did he have in common with the middle class Thais?

An urban upbringing and university education.

Yes, I don't think right now western Buddhists will have a major impact within Thailand, or any Theravadian country, but what about the impact on the religion as a whole? Are western Buddhists making in imprint at all in East Asia?

Well, western Buddhists sure made a big impact on Sri Lanka in the past but if by East Asia you mean China/Korea/Japan I doubt there is any impact at all.

Tell me about Sri Lanka if you can, please? I haven't heard anything about this.

This thread should answer your question. It also contains other comments relative to the topic of Westerners and Buddhism.

[wudangtiger]

I went to regular sessions with the FWBO and theravada buddhists in Brighton. Both were illuminating. The FWBO had a very nice, simple, non-traditional approach. The Theravada monks had to deal with feminists outraged by the idea of bowing to men!