UK demands Russia explain nerve attack after two more people struck down

[Morch]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Posted previously, I don't know how the recent case relates to the first."

 

Really??

 

Once again, what is your point (assuming that you got one)?

[Peasandmash]

Ahh, the Russians what a great country and culture.

[ChouDoufu]

On 7/6/2018 at 9:18 AM, Orac said:

Good job Porton Down is close by, about midway between the two incidents which are only 7 miles apart according to thd OP - at least they can be on the scene quickly.

not quite.  the alleged incident is alleged to have allegedly taken plane, the location where they allegedly handled an alleged contaminated item, in queen elizabeth park. 

 

that just happens to be about 500 meters driving, or 300 meters direct thru

properties, to the park bench at the maltings shopping center where the skripals were found.....and far, far away from the front door of the skripal's house that, allegedly again, was swabbed with a toxic substance.

 

but yes...porton down IS close by. 

 

 

 

[ChouDoufu]

22 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

They assassinate Russian expats on foreign soil using radiation poisoning or nerve agents without central government consent? Really.....

 

And, separately since you seem to want to compare the U.S. and Russia, when was the last time the U.S. government was accused of assassinating one of its own citizens anywhere? ......<snip>

 

is one incident enough?  how about two?  there are others.  awlaki, and later his teenage son, both assassinated by drone in separate incidents, under order of constitutional scholar obama, both without trial.

Edited July 7, 2018 by ChouDoufu

[ChouDoufu]

20 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Right. The Skripals just stumbled on the stuff by accident.

well, this second pair are said to have stumbled upon and handled some contaminated item by accident.  strange that the most lethal nerve agent in history, 10x more lethal than vx, affected the skripals (healthy young woman, elderly man) at exactly the same moment, four hours after alleged exposure.

 

and in the second case, whatever the object was, it must have been protected and tightly sealed for four months, as novichok variants degrade quickly when exposed to moisture.  and reports are that one was affected in the morning, the second later in the evening? 

 

if occam were a shaving man, he'd likely mention the close proximity

of the porton down chemical warfare research facility to these events.

 

simplest explanation?  oops.

[Odysseus123]

Jeez..it's terrible..how about the West unleash it's mighty arsenal and just bombard everyone..

 

Failing that..nobody has ever enjoyed a bad case of salmonella..

 

Come on Theresa May..invade the Falklands..the Canary Islands...Queen Adelaide Island..anywhere where the BREXIT banner (tawdry,dishevelled and..really,really dumb thing that it is..) is still flying..

 

I have an Airfix collection of Spitfires if you need them.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, ChouDoufu said:

is one incident enough?  how about two?  there are others.  awlaki, and later his teenage son, both assassinated by drone in separate incidents, under order of constitutional scholar obama, both without trial.

 

You got me on that one (or two). Indeed, the U.S. did kill a senior member of Al-Qaeda who advocated violent jihad against his "native" country and who advocated for and participated in the planning for various acts of terrorism against U.S. targets.  Why the U.S. chose that route instead of trying to arrest and prosecute him, I don't know and thus can't express any opinion on that point.

 

However, Awlaki's situation and his activities and role are not even remotely comparable to Putin persecuting and prosecuting his "political" opponents at  home and Russia assassinating a Russian expat in the UK, and then later attempting to assassinate two others in the UK -- none of whom were involved in war crimes, violent extremism, terrorism or anything remotely resembling that.

 

[ChouDoufu]

you got me, not remotely comparable.

 

the murder of awlaki without trial, an exjudical assassination, is a documented fact. 

 

there was no trial, no chance to refute the charges, and given the number of "senior" leaders that we claim to have killed, it would seem the terrorists have more leaders than footsoldiers.  the only actual facts with evidence shown is that he was involved in various forms of propaganda, so basically a "motivational speaker."

 

skripal was a traitor to his country, responsible for revealing the identities of hundreds of agents.  he was arrested, given a fair trial, and sentenced to much less than the maximum sentence for treason, whereas is some countries he could have been executed with minimal formalities.  he was later pardoned and given to britain in a spy exchange.

 

the "facts" surrounding the "event" leading to the death of skripal have not been proven, mostly baseless allegations, and there is still no evidence at all linking his death to russia.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

23 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

 

the "facts" surrounding the "event" leading to the death of skripal have not been proven, mostly baseless allegations, and there is still no evidence at all linking his death to russia.

 

I'm not sure whom you're talking about. Skripal isn't dead, so there's nothing to link to his death. He was the victim of an attempted assassination by a Soviet created nerve agent, but unfortunately for his Russian assassins, he ended up recovering.

 

If your account of his history is correct, then he went thru the legal process in Russia, ended up ultimately being pardoned and was turned over to the UK as part of a formal exchange agreement between the two countries. And if Russia was following protocols, that should have been the end of it. But obviously, it wasn't.

 

Skripal wasn't a terrorist advocating the violent defeat of his home country and its system of government, but Awlaki was.

 

[ChouDoufu]

6 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I'm not sure whom you're talking about. Skripal isn't dead, so there's nothing to link to his death. He was the victim of an attempted assassination by a Soviet created nerve agent, but unfortunately for his Russian assassins, he ended up recovering.

 

If your account of his history is correct, then he went thru the legal process in Russia, ended up ultimately being pardoned and was turned over to the UK as part of a formal exchange agreement between the two countries. And if Russia was following protocols, that should have been the end of it. But obviously, it wasn't.

 

Skripal wasn't a terrorist advocating the violent defeat of his home country and its system of government, but Awlaki was.

 

oops....i was concentrating so much on documenting the assassinations ordered by obama, that i mis-typed, forgetting how putin pardoned the traitor after he barely served half his sentence.

 

how is the skripal affair "obvious?"  there is no proof of any russian involvement, nor any gain to be made by them other than in conspiracy theory terms.

 

as i mentioned before, occam's razor tells us the simplest solution with the fewest assumptions is probably the correct choice.

 

porton down is less than 10 miles away.  accidents happen.  dirty test tubes sometimes get thrown in the wrong bin.  people responsible for misteaks prefer not to be held to account.  likely just an "oopsie."

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

21 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

oops....i was concentrating so much on documenting the assassinations ordered by obama, that i mis-typed, forgetting how putin pardoned the traitor after he barely served half his sentence.

 

 

Russia got the Russians they wanted back (10 of them) in the Skripal exchange in 2010, with Skripal's prosecution, imprisonment and release/exchange all occurring when Putin was either president or prime minister of Russia

 

Quote

 

After spending more than four years in prison, Skripal and three other Russian nationals were pardoned and released from custody in a high-profile spy exchange with the U.S. and its ally the U.K. Their release was in exchange for ten deep-cover Russian operatives living in America, who made up a infamous spy ring the U.S. Department of Justice called the “Illegals Program.”
 

The so-called illegals were found to be working for Russia’s foreign intelligence services while embedded in normal American society. Nearly all the deep-cover agents lived in the suburbs, worked white-collar jobs, supported American sports teams, went by Anglicized names. Some went on to have children. The most high-profile of the group was scarlet-haired New York socialite Anna Chapman, a diplomat’s daughter formerly known as Anna Kuschenko, who once worked at Barclay’s Bank and gained a British passport after marrying ex-husband Alex Chapman.

 

 

http://time.com/5187431/sergei-skripal-russia-spy-salisbury/

 

and

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/10564994

 

Kind of sounds like Vlad was trying to welch on the prior deal -- by attempting to kill one of the people his Russian government had previously released as part of the exchange. As they say, no honor among thieves and corrupt dictators.

 

 

[ChouDoufu]

so still no proof of russian involvement?

thought not.

i'm off to youtube.

if you come up with something valid, do post it.

thanks for playing.

[Scott]

Troll post removed.  

[Morch]

5 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

well, this second pair are said to have stumbled upon and handled some contaminated item by accident.  strange that the most lethal nerve agent in history, 10x more lethal than vx, affected the skripals (healthy young woman, elderly man) at exactly the same moment, four hours after alleged exposure.

 

and in the second case, whatever the object was, it must have been protected and tightly sealed for four months, as novichok variants degrade quickly when exposed to moisture.  and reports are that one was affected in the morning, the second later in the evening? 

 

if occam were a shaving man, he'd likely mention the close proximity

of the porton down chemical warfare research facility to these events.

 

simplest explanation?  oops.

 

Said earlier, no strong assertions as to the second case - not enough details.

 

As for the Skripal case, you're simply rehashing the same old nonsense from previous topics. Nothing new there. Hyping how lethal the substance is, while ignoring dosage/potency/delivery variations on the one hand, while bringing up the very same issues on the other. Not particularly compelling or convincing.

 

Accepting Skripal was a victim of an "oops" thing, considering all facts and factors is a bit of a stretch.

[BestB]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Said earlier, no strong assertions as to the second case - not enough details.

 

As for the Skripal case, you're simply rehashing the same old nonsense from previous topics. Nothing new there. Hyping how lethal the substance is, while ignoring dosage/potency/delivery variations on the one hand, while bringing up the very same issues on the other. Not particularly compelling or convincing.

 

Accepting Skripal was a victim of an "oops" thing, considering all facts and factors is a bit of a stretch.

 I believe Guardian is a long standing UK based media outlet.

 

If the novichok was planted by Russia, where’s the evidence?https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/05/novichok-wiltshire-poisoning-russia-putin-world-cup

 

But why wait so long after he has fled, and why during the build-up to so highly politicised an event as a World Cup in Russia?

Four months on from the crime, the Skripals have been incommunicado in a “secure location”. Barely a word has been heard from them. Theresa May has persistently blamed Russia. She has called the incident “brazen and despicable”, and MI5 condemned “flagrant breaches of international rules”. But I cannot see the diplomatic or other purchase in prejudging the case, when no one can offer a clue.

 

 

[LomSak27]

11 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

how is the skripal affair "obvious?"  there is no proof of any russian involvement, nor any gain to be made by them other than in conspiracy theory terms.

Because are the only ones who manufacture Novichok for starts and they have a past history of killing people in the UK.

 

Poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko

"n 1 November 2006, Litvinenko suddenly fell ill and was hospitalized. He died three weeks later, becoming the first confirmed victim of lethal polonium-210-induced acute radiation syndrome.[1] Litvinenko's allegations about the misdeeds of the FSB and his public deathbed accusations that Russian president Vladimir Putin was behind his unusual malady resulted in worldwide media coverage"

"witness stated that Dmitry Kovtun had been speaking openly about the plan to kill Litvinenko that was intended to "set an example" as a punishment for a "traitor".[5] The main suspect in the case, a former officer of the Russian Federal Protective Service (FSO), Andrey Lugovoy, remains in Russia."

 

Now they have poisoned innocent UK nationals in the United Kingdom. One wonders how many more Salisbury innocents will be killed by the Russian poison? 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by LomSak27

[BestB]

1 hour ago, LomSak27 said:

Because are the only ones who manufacture Novichok for starts and they have a past history of killing people in the UK.

 

Poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko

"n 1 November 2006, Litvinenko suddenly fell ill and was hospitalized. He died three weeks later, becoming the first confirmed victim of lethal polonium-210-induced acute radiation syndrome.[1] Litvinenko's allegations about the misdeeds of the FSB and his public deathbed accusations that Russian president Vladimir Putin was behind his unusual malady resulted in worldwide media coverage"

"witness stated that Dmitry Kovtun had been speaking openly about the plan to kill Litvinenko that was intended to "set an example" as a punishment for a "traitor".[5] The main suspect in the case, a former officer of the Russian Federal Protective Service (FSO), Andrey Lugovoy, remains in Russia."

 

Now they have poisoned innocent UK nationals in the United Kingdom. One wonders how many more Salisbury innocents will be killed by the Russian poison? 

 

 

 

Have not you heard? Russians are coming to invade UK. ???

 

Not only novichok composition was publically published but is produced just around the corner just to name a few places.

 

 

[Morch]

 

@BestB

 

Oh look, you're quoting an opinion column. Thanks for sharing. Must be comfy in that echo chamber.

[Chomper Higgot]

15 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Russia got the Russians they wanted back (10 of them) in the Skripal exchange in 2010, with Skripal's prosecution, imprisonment and release/exchange all occurring when Putin was either president or prime minister of Russia

 

 

http://time.com/5187431/sergei-skripal-russia-spy-salisbury/

 

and

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/10564994

 

Kind of sounds like Vlad was trying to welch on the prior deal -- by attempting to kill one of the people his Russian government had previously released as part of the exchange. As they say, no honor among thieves and corrupt dictators.

 

 

Another credible explanation is Putin had already suffered a number of embarrassing Intelligence leaks.

 

Much of the Steel Dossier was derived from Russians and or concerned Russia’s attack on the US and other elections - No part of the Steel Dossier has been proven false, many parts have been proven correct.

 

The attempt to kill Skripal was very likely a message to anyone who might offer information to Mueller - including Americans such as Manafort.

 

The message is very clear, Putin is willing to kill any opponents/‘people disloyal to him’ any where and at any time.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[dick dasterdly]

20 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

well, this second pair are said to have stumbled upon and handled some contaminated item by accident.  strange that the most lethal nerve agent in history, 10x more lethal than vx, affected the skripals (healthy young woman, elderly man) at exactly the same moment, four hours after alleged exposure.

 

and in the second case, whatever the object was, it must have been protected and tightly sealed for four months, as novichok variants degrade quickly when exposed to moisture.  and reports are that one was affected in the morning, the second later in the evening? 

 

if occam were a shaving man, he'd likely mention the close proximity

of the porton down chemical warfare research facility to these events.

 

simplest explanation?  oops.

 

14 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Said earlier, no strong assertions as to the second case - not enough details.

 

As for the Skripal case, you're simply rehashing the same old nonsense from previous topics. Nothing new there. Hyping how lethal the substance is, while ignoring dosage/potency/delivery variations on the one hand, while bringing up the very same issues on the other. Not particularly compelling or convincing.

 

Accepting Skripal was a victim of an "oops" thing, considering all facts and factors is a bit of a stretch.

After the first contamination that harmed the Skripals (russian dissidents), I'm sure most of us assumed the russians were likely responsible - despite the lack of evidence.

 

This second case (again non-lethal, despite the lethality of the poison involved....) has resulted in some of us with more doubts and questions.

 

The uk becoming even more strident after this latest contamination (demanding 'russia explain nerve attack') - just strikes some of us as very odd, and increases the likelihood of it being an attempt at deflection by the uk govt.

 

(Edit - by those of us who aren't immediately convinced by everything spouted by the uk govt. and media...)

Edited July 8, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[Morch]

51 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

After the first contamination that harmed the Skripals (russian dissidents), I'm sure most of us assumed the russians were likely responsible - despite the lack of evidence.

 

This second case (again non-lethal, despite the lethality of the poison involved....) has resulted in some of us with more doubts and questions.

 

The uk becoming even more strident after this latest contamination (demanding 'russia explain nerve attack') - just strikes some of us as very odd, and increases the likelihood of it being an attempt at deflection by the uk govt.

 

(Edit - by those of us who aren't immediately convinced by everything spouted by the uk govt. and media...)

 

You keep doing this "most of us" bit. The way I recall things, and having participated and followed them topics, there were actually many post denying any Russian connection. As for the "lack of evidence" bit - no credible alternative  is on offer.

 

Going on about "dissident" is all very well. In reality, both were naturalized, and the attack was carried out on UK soil. Spin away.

 

And citing "an attempt at deflection" isn't an answer as to what, exactly, is being "deflected". Nothing coherent on this front either.

 

 

[ChouDoufu]

there are any number of "possible" explanations, and quite a few might even be considered "probable".....all based on the same very thin set of facts.

 

one must be careful not to be baited into posting most of the possible scenarios, as the posts are likely to be deleted as conspiracy theories.

 

we know the formula for the named variety of novichok has been published, and is currently available in book form on amazon. we know it has been synthesized and studied by numerous state entities.  we know any reasonably funded university laboratory could synthesize the named substance, although perhaps not safely, and not necessarily in the purity as reported by the ocpw.

 

we know porton down is located nearby, and we know they perform exotic weapons research.  given the speed at which they identified the substance, it is likely they had research samples on hand for comparison purposes.  at the very least, they needed detailed information in order to trace back the degraded  compounds in the blood and environmental samples to the original compound.

 

have we considered the possibility of an accidental release of a stored agent?  testing vial misplaced?  mislabeled sample?

 

or perhaps a willful release for personal reasons, such as occurred with anthrax at the fort detrick facility in the united states?

[BestB]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@BestB

 

Oh look, you're quoting an opinion column. Thanks for sharing. Must be comfy in that echo chamber.

Just because you do not like it it does not make it less of an opinion than yours 

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, BestB said:

Just because you do not like it it does not make it less of an opinion than yours 

 

It also doesn't make it into "proof", "evidence" or any sort of "ace" argument making your case. Which was the point made. Work on them deflections.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Morch

[BestB]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

It also doesn't make it into "proof", "evidence" or any sort of "ace" argument making your case. Which was the point made. Work on them deflections.

Can not make amything into a proof  when there is no proof 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, BestB said:

Can not make amything into a proof  when there is no proof 

Keep working on them deflections.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Morch

[Scott]

Troll posts removed.   Continue with the personal commentary and face a suspension. 

 

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.  

[dick dasterdly]

4 hours ago, BestB said:

Can not make amything into a proof  when there is no proof 

 

4 hours ago, Morch said:

Keep working on them deflections.

How is a poster pointing out that there is no proof - a deflection?

 

Hopefully I'm not falling foul of the moderators by pointing this out.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, BestB said:

Can not make amything into a proof  when there is no proof 

What's this obsession with 'proof'?

 

Above all else the British Government have a duty to defend the UK, the nation, the people and the economy. 

 

In enacting this duty the British Government (as a sovereign government) are under no burden of proof. 

 

The accused is not a defendant in a court case, it is a foreign power with access to all the powers of a state to act and hide its actions.

 

Further, the UK itself has at its disposal one of the worlds most advanced security and intelligence agencies, the advice and information the UK government receives from these agencies is by definition 'state secrets'.

 

As a sovereign nation acting to defend itself the UK is under absolutely no obligation to provide proof. 

 

Moreover the burden the government carries is not one of 'proof' but that of the 'precautionary principal' one of 'probability' and consensus amongst the intelligence and security services. 

 

Clearly, if the UK government were only ever to act to foreign threats when there is 'proof' the aggressor would be marching down Oxford Street before the proof came in.

 

 

Again: The UK Government is under no obligation of Burden of Proof when acting in defence of the nation. 

 

------

A few points of note:

 

• UK a sovereign nation.
• UK acting as a sovereign nation
• The UK's world leading security and intelligence services. 

 

All issues that those arguing against the UK and in favour (or obfuscating in favour of) Russia are bringing up in other discussions regarding the UK and its relationship to the EU.
 

The correlation between those supporting (or obfuscating in favour of ) Russia and support for Brexit is no accident. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[BestB]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

What's this obsession with 'proof'?

 

Above all else the British Government have a duty to defend the UK, the nation, the people and the economy. 

 

In enacting this duty the British Government (as a sovereign government) are under no burden of proof. 

 

The accused is not a defendant in a court case, it is a foreign power with access to all the powers of a state to act and hide its actions.

 

Further, the UK itself has at its disposal one of the worlds most advanced security and intelligence agencies, the advice and information the UK government receives from these agencies is by definition 'state secrets'.

 

As a sovereign nation acting to defend itself the UK is under absolutely no obligation to provide proof. 

 

Moreover the burden the government carries is not one of 'proof' but that of the 'precautionary principal' one of 'probability' and consensus amongst the intelligence and security services. 

 

Clearly, if the UK government were only ever to act to foreign threats when there is 'proof' the aggressor would be marching down Oxford Street before the proof came in.

 

 

Again: The UK Government is under no obligation of Burden of Proof when acting in defence of the nation. 

 

------

A few points of note:

 

• UK a sovereign nation.
• UK acting as a sovereign nation
• The UK's world leading security and intelligence services. 

 

All issues that those arguing against the UK and in favour (or obfuscating in favour of) Russia are bringing up in other discussions regarding the UK and its relationship to the EU.
 

The correlation between those supporting (or obfuscating in favour of ) Russia and support for Brexit is no accident. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So following your logic, any nation can start laying blame on any nation they like or dislike on pure speculations?

 

Probability? So if i kill someone in Thailand using American  brand  weapon, probability would be that American government is responsible?What about if weapon was modified and its origin could not be determined with certainty? does the blame still lay with American government?