Rescue Diver Killed In Tham Luang Cave Complex

[monkfish]

What about a small oxygenated capsule and drag them through.
They could be half sedated to prevent panic.

[Mattd]

1 minute ago, Brewster67 said:

It is increasingly becoming one of their only options, and if the setup is handled right, there is no reason why it can't work.....

As I said, it MIGHT work in short stints, no way over the distance involved, logistically very difficult to set up, especially the compressors.

 

[pathologix]

What a horrific way to die – and while doing such a noble, selfless deed. 38 years old is way too young – the prime of his life. 

 

Maybe we should use this thread to express condolences and thanks to this brave man and his family instead of litigating the coach's culpability, drilling options, etc. which are well covered in other topics?

 

I think it's important to remember that every single person there – from the food stall owners to ditch diggers to divers – is sacrificing something. Income, time, comfort, the safety of their lives.

 

This man sacrificed everything to try and rescue 13 people he didn't even know. A hero deserving of national mourning and to be long remembered for his altruism.

[Joel23]

56 minutes ago, Brewster67 said:

Falling unconscious.... Sounds like he ran out of air, which means he was diving with a tank....

Might be the true story but sounds suspicious to me. He was about to deliver three tanks, didn't watch his air consumption and run out of air?

How many liter air is in one tank? At 200 bar ~2000 liter, right? A person needs between 10 to 50 liter/min, at 10 meters double as that. How would some be able to manage a one-way trek of 5-6 hours?

 

My first thought was: this happened because of bad (contaminated) air.  I saw photos were a guy was filling tanks sitting close to a compressor.  If the exhaust system of the compressor is to close to its air inlet it will suck the exhausts in (Carbon monoxide, Carbon dioxide, etc.) Diver will fall unconscious and drown especially when diving alone. 

[Eligius]

2 hours ago, darksidedog said:

Tragic that a brave man loses his life while trying to rescue others. It does clearly show that even fully trained divers have problems navigating this cave. The idea of bringing the kids out by diving seems to be far more dangerous than some have been suggesting.

RIP Samarn Kunan. You will be remembered.

Yes indeed. This is such tragic news. What a hero that guy was - deserving of the highest respect and appreciation.

 

But as you say, Darksidedog: this sheds a very, very worrying light on the entire notion of getting those 13 youngsters (not even familiar with swimming) to somehow navigate passageways which even highly skilled and trained military divers can find to be lethal.

 

I know we are all praying and/or hoping that somehow these courageous young footballers will be brought out into the sunshine once more. It is possible with all the modern technology. Hope is certainly not lost yet.

[Brewster67]

3 minutes ago, Mattd said:

Indeed, as they bash and scrape alongside the cave walls.................... impossible to control.

Hmmm.......  Anyone with intelligence wouldn't just drag them through on a rope from 100 meters away, there would be one man in front and one man behind as you bring them through one at a time....

 

That is what intelligent folks would figure out.... but who said anyone there was clever enough to figure out the logical way of carrying out an operation...

[Basil B]

4 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Quite possible Thai navy divers are underestimating how scary these dives are, breathing much faster and using too much air

I would assume the RTN never trained it's divers for diving in caves.

[Fex Bluse]

23 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's called adventure training, and he's done it before. The caves were not closed for rainy season when they went in.

You must admit that taking them there without the parents' or Park Management's knowledge was a lapse in judgement?

 

I don't care if they'd done it 500 times without problem. This logic of "it has not been a problem for me yet" is a central problem if Thai character. There is no way he should have taken them down there without people on notice in case something went wrong.

 

One would expect a guardian to be able to exercise better logic with or without signs.

[Brewster67]

2 minutes ago, Mattd said:

As I said, it MIGHT work in short stints, no way over the distance involved, logistically very difficult to set up, especially the compressors.

 

But that is the whole situation..... there isn't a mile of diving to get out.... the flooded sections are hundreds of feet at the longest and just a few feet at the shortest..... the entire rescue is going to have to be in stages....

 

Like I said in my original post

 

'one section at a time'

[thaibeachlovers]

12 minutes ago, Basil B said:

I think they used to call that keel hauling... 

That was a quote from a different poster, NOT me.

Edited July 6, 2018 by thaibeachlovers

[webfact]

Retired SEAL member dies in Tham Luang rescue operation

By Thai PBS

 

 

A retired member of the Navy SEAL unit died in Tham Luang cave in Chiang Rai’s Mae Sai district early Friday (July 6) while on a mission to rescue the 12 footballers and their coach stranded in the cave since June 23, Wassana Nanuam, a military beat reporter of the Bangkok Post newspaper, posted on the Facebook on Friday morning.

 

He was identified as Warrant Office (First Class) Saman Kunan, 38, a who finished a  SEAL training course in the 30th batch. After retiring from the Navy, he worked in a security patrol unit of the Suvarnabhumi airport under the Airports of Thailand Plc.

 

Saman was recalled to join the Navy SEAL team in the search and rescue operation at Tham Luang cave in the Tham Luang – Khun Nam Nang Non National Park in Chiang Rai’s Mae Sai district.

 

Full story: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/retired-seal-member-dies-tham-luang-rescue-operation/

 

-- © Copyright Thai PBS 2018-07-06

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, Fex Bluse said:

You must admit that taking them there without the parents' or Park Management's knowledge was a lapse in judgement?

 

I don't care if they'd done it 500 times without problem. This logic of "it has not been a problem for me yet" is a central problem if Thai character. There is no way he should have taken them down there without people on notice in case something went wrong.

 

One would expect a guardian to be able to exercise better logic with or without signs.

Who said he did it without notifying the parents? They knew where the kids were when they didn't return home.

[Brewster67]

Look, as far as i have read the details of this system is that the longest stretch of flooded section is a couple of hundred feet, and the shortest is literally a few feet, the umbilical method is probably the safest...

 

the biggest problem i am seeing is that since the brits found the kids, the thais have said 'thank you very much, we will handle it from here'..... and we could well have a keystone cops scenario unfolding in an attempt for the thais themselves to salvage dignity by trying to put the whole thing to bed.

 

I have a horrible feeling that international experts may well be feeling quite frustrated.... I have lived here long enough to know how the thais think... I hope I am wrong, but I am certainly not surprised to have woken up to this news this morning.

[R123]

May I know if the Thais are seeking the guidance of (world class) divers from the UK and USA?

 

Or do the Thais consider they have the necessary expertise to do the rescue without foreigners?!

[thaibeachlovers]

9 minutes ago, Brewster67 said:

Hmmm.......  Anyone with intelligence wouldn't just drag them through on a rope from 100 meters away, there would be one man in front and one man behind as you bring them through one at a time....

 

That is what intelligent folks would figure out.... but who said anyone there was clever enough to figure out the logical way of carrying out an operation...

If it were that easy, don't you think they would already have done it? They have dozens of experts on site, from different countries.

[Brewster67]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If it were that easy, don't you think they would already have done it? They have dozens of experts on site, from different countries.

Are you totally sure that the Thais have not completely taken over the operation now that they have been found?... 'Thanks for finding them guys.... we can take over from here'... I didn't claim it would be easy, but it is certainly doable... And left with no choice under the circumstances, might be the ONLY option available to them.....

 

Anyway, isn't the idea of drilling to them totally absurd?... it may have worked in Chile but the rig was on flat ground and not the side of a mountain.... Lol

Edited July 6, 2018 by Brewster67

[josephbloggs]

9 minutes ago, Brewster67 said:

Are you totally sure that the Thais have not completely taken over the operation now that they have been found?... 'Thanks for finding them guys.... we can take over from here'...

No, they haven't - they are not as narrow minded as you think.  There are still experts on site from many countries.

[maximillian]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

This has got to have a very negative effect on the other divers and their own confidence in getting the job done.

Agreed about the other divers, but imagine what effect the news will have on the boys. I'd say they will be too terrified to even contemplate diving now. They'll also be extremely upset that someone died trying to rescue them, and I'm thinking the coach will be a psychological mess now. 

 

 

It would be the craziest thing to tell the boys about this incident.

Keep it from them even when they are all outside. They must feel guilty already.

Even more so the young coach.

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, Brewster67 said:

isn't the idea of drilling to them totally absurd?..

Depends on the ground above the cave, doesn't it? I'm not the only one suggesting it.

Certainly safer than trying to take panicked small boys through a flooded tunnel. Nowadays they can drill oil wells in a short time. Certainly less than 4 months. Even if it was only possible for supplying food, air and electricity etc, far preferable to taking everything through water.

[BEVUP]

38 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I doubt the air supply option would be viable over the distance they are diving. I believe it's around a mile. No way they could drag a line that long anyway.

Way out of the situation

So what do they do - Drag 13 lines through & they get tangled up in them even if it was doable 

Or by the time they dragged 1 in & got 1 child back out (12 hr round trip ) the place would be entirely flooded 

[greenchair]

2 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

Sad piece of news. Condolence to the family. Hope this sad news don't dampen the spirit of the rescue personnel. I don't see the logic of transferring the Governor at this crucial period after he has lead and coordinating the operation in the last 13 days. Really not the time for politics at this crucial stage. 

Yes, really sad that he was moved. 

And maybe he was going too slowly for some that want this wrapped up quickly. 

Such a sad sad day. 

[BobbyL]

Terrible, and now it certainly becomes real.

 

I hope this is a massive wake up for the likes of the governor saying they will be out in days, the TAT already organising it as a tourist site and all the people praising a monk for a wild guess.

 

Finding them was always going to happen if they were quick enough. The big bit was without a doubt getting them out. 

[Sheryl]

You must admit that taking them there without the parents' or Park Management's knowledge was a lapse in judgement?
 
I don't care if they'd done it 500 times without problem. This logic of "it has not been a problem for me yet" is a central problem if Thai character. There is no way he should have taken them down there without people on notice in case something went wrong.
 
One would expect a guardian to be able to exercise better logic with or without signs.

We don't know that it was without parents knowkedge. One of the 2 group members who did not go along, was because his mother said he had too much homework, so at least one parent did know.


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[steve73]

18 minutes ago, Brewster67 said:

Are you totally sure that the Thais have not completely taken over the operation now that they have been found?... 'Thanks for finding them guys.... we can take over from here'... I didn't claim it would be easy, but it is certainly doable... And left with no choice under the circumstances, might be the ONLY option available to them.....

 

Anyway, isn't the idea of drilling to them totally absurd?... it may have worked in Chile but the rig was on flat ground and not the side of a mountain.... Lol

2 of the original 3 UK Cave Rescue Divers are still around.  Another 2 UK CD's are arriving soon (or may already be here), and another 3 will be coming out shortly... And that's in addition to the many other nationalities that I'm not keeping up with.

[Ks45672]

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Depends on the ground above the cave, doesn't it? I'm not the only one suggesting it.

Certainly safer than trying to take panicked small boys through a flooded tunnel. Nowadays they can drill oil wells in a short time. Certainly less than 4 months. Even if it was only possible for supplying food, air and electricity etc, far preferable to taking everything through water.

To get a big drill up there, they need to build a strong road first which is not going to be easy or quick as the rainy season is about to start and you can't build  roads in rainstorms very well

 

Teaching them to swim out would be a lot cheaper but seems too risky imo because of the distance 

[JAZZDOG]

1 hour ago, Just1Voice said:

I was a military trained diver, but even in my prime, which was a long time ago, I would have serious doubts about this dive. Cave diving of this nature is not even similar to open water diving.  

 

Given your background would you even consider extracting the kids underwater. What would you consider the % risk taking out 13, one at a time.

[chrisinth]

49 minutes ago, Brewster67 said:

It is increasingly becoming one of their only options, and if the setup is handled right, there is no reason why it can't work.....

 

When the monsoon arrives and reality sets in that all could die, they may have no choice.

 

Diving with tanks in very constricted conditions is just as risky and i will throw my hat into the ring here and say the reason this hero died is because he was snagged because of his bulky equipment and ran out of air.

 

'became unconscious'... to me, means suffocated through lack of air.

How would you suggest they get the compressors to site so that the umbilical is short enough for the diver to manage? One of the main reasons for the delay in extracting the kids is due to space restrictions, if the space is questionable for a child, there wouldn't be much chance of getting a compressor in. Do they have power that far into the system; as stated before a diesel compressor couldn't be used in a confined space. 

 

As for the last part about the casualty, I think I read that he was in one of the chambers when he went unconscious, ie, not wearing gear at the time.

[BEVUP]

53 minutes ago, Joel23 said:

My first thought was: this happened because of bad (contaminated) air.  I saw photos were a guy was filling tanks sitting close to a compressor.  If the exhaust system of the compressor is to close to its air inlet it will suck the exhausts in (Carbon monoxide, Carbon dioxide, etc.) Diver will fall unconscious and drown especially when diving alone. 

This would be my thought as well 

I couldn't imagine a navy seal running out of air, & I'm sure they would be trained to swap bottles in that event 

 

How long had he been diving on/off without a proper break - Would this of had some affect (not sure of leading to unconsciousness )

 

[Sheryl]

Absolute tragedy. It was perhaps optimistic to hope this would end with 0 casualties but we all hoped so nonethrless.

A true hero.

Falling unconscious could have been any number of things...cardiac arryhtmia, heart attack, burst aneurysm etc. In all instances brought on by extreme exertion. We certainly can't assume equipment failure (and I hope that will not turn out to have been the case). At this point we don't even know if he was unpder water when it happened. There is a dry hike on that route which is f at a steep slope and i itself far from easy especially after 6+hours of hard physical effort and laden down with gear.

What is certain is that he put in days of unimaginably tough exertion (worse even than most as he was lugging in heavy supplies) in the interest of saving innocent children and died a hero.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Lampang2]

No, they haven't - they are not as narrow minded as you think.  There are still experts on site from many countries.

Yes.

But do they speak Thai?

IMHO, if you don't speak Thai, you are treated like air.