SURVEY: Is Russia the enemy?

[zydeco]

3 hours ago, Aussieroaming said:

I dont trust America or Russia and you can add the UK to my list. All of these country's and the other biggies lie and feed us false information to garnish whatever support they need or to make us believe that they are holding firm in a dangerous world on our behalf. 

Who do you trust?

[Kiwiken]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Russia promoting democracy and openness? Do tell.

Nothing in your post actually supports the premise of the opening line. Other countries being this or that is not necessarily relevant to the question of whether Russia is a threat, as far as the West is concerned.

So you say

[manarak]

The questions of the poll are not well written.

Either an "enemy of the West" or "doing nothing more than most countries". lol

 

reminds me of "if you are not with us, you are against us"

 

[Kiwiken]

3 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Russia never promotes democracy and openness, does that not make them worse than those who sometimes do?

 

I suggest you read up on the Franco-Russian alliance, the threat was very much real, France was obviously a threat, I am sure you at least aware of that, and they was doing their utmost to form an allegiance with Russia, they failed to do so and France went on to confront the British in North Africa alone, very nearly leading to the first World War, if Russia had of joined forces with France we wouldn't have had a chance.

I have never said or inferred that Russia promotes Democracy and openness anymore than China does. On the whole neither do many in the west. The Tabloids may say otherwise but the truth on the ground has never been that great

[Thingamabob]

No.

[NotEinstein]

Everybody by now should realize that every person at the highest levels of politics, the military and corporate business is, as best, a sociopath and more likely a psychopath.

 

When it comes to geopolitics, what I see is a playground of kids with all the nastiness that they develop unsupervised, except with armies, mayhem and potential genocide at their disposal.

 

Is Russia a threat to any other nation - sure, if that nation disagrees with it or covets what it has enough to want to start a fight, otherwise, no more than any other.

 

[wabothai]

One may not like folks, but to call other country folk an enemy is totally ridiculous, especially when it comes from heresay.

[dick dasterdly]

10 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I voted YES, but with the caveat that I consider that a YES for the current Russian government under Putin.

 

I don't think Russia by nature or de facto has to be an enemy of the West or democracies. But under Putin, that's clearly been the case.

 

If the country and its citizens were allowed to freely choose their leaders, the outcome might well be different, or maybe not.  But I always judge countries and governments on what they do, not who they are.

 

 

BTW, that's also not saying Russia is the only or worse threat/enemy to the West and democracies. There certainly are others out there, and I'd probably put Trump into the same basket as Putin when it comes to threatening the West and democracy in general. Not to mention Muslim extremism and perhaps China as well.

 

 

I voted YES, but with the caveat that I consider that a YES for the current Russian government under Putin.

 

So you had no 'problem' with russia before putin?

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, Aussieroaming said:

I dont trust America or Russia and you can add the UK to my list. All of these country's and the other biggies lie and feed us false information to garnish whatever support they need or to make us believe that they are holding firm in a dangerous world on our behalf. 

 

14 minutes ago, zydeco said:

Who do you trust?

Sorry to 'jump in' -  but certainly not politicians and those that 'feed' off their backs!

 

Aussieroaming is right IMO - "All of these country's and the other biggies lie and feed us false information to garnish whatever support they need or to make us believe that they are holding firm in a dangerous world on our behalf."

 

It's depressingly true ☹️.

 

Again IMO.

Edited July 8, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[Jdiddy]

Poll seems to have been edited going by some of the posts in here, i went with: 

 

• They may be guilty of some allegations, but nothing more than most countries do.

[Chomper Higgot]

16 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

Sorry to 'jump in' -  but certainly not politicians and those that 'feed' off their backs!

 

Aussieroaming is right IMO - "All of these country's and the other biggies lie and feed us false information to garnish whatever support they need or to make us believe that they are holding firm in a dangerous world on our behalf."

 

It's depressingly true - again IMO.

I would encourage you to spend some time thinking about how you came to such entrenched distrust of your own government.

 

Politics is all about balancing multiple needs, concerns, interests it is inevitable that horse trading takes place and that nobody gets everything they wish or delivers on every promise.

 

That has always been the reality of politics.

 

We can observe this occurring in the Brexit negotiations or in any other complex issue with multiple parties having a wide spectrum of interests/concerns.

 

To observe this and then declare politics and politicians untrustworthy is either a complete misunderstanding of what politics is and how it works or is a ‘believable’ received message.

 

Chomsky put it well when he observed that democratic governments have a fatal flaw, they ocassionally do what ordinary people want them to do.

 

It is no accident that the rightwing press and media spend so much time pumping out the message ‘don’t trust the government’.

 

Without government, you, me and every ordinary person is at the complete mercy of big busines.

 

Your oft repeated ‘don’t trust government/politicians’ is playing right into the hands of people who want zero government - And they don’t want that for your good.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[Morch]

37 minutes ago, Kiwiken said:

So you say

 

Actually, it was you who said the bit about promoting democracy and openness. Wasn't really expecting any meaningful comment on this part.

 

As for the rest, what you're on about isn't the issue of whether Russia is an enemy of the West, but rather how the West (or other countries) is "also" bad. Plus the usual bit of collective self-flagellation.

[williet98248]

Russia is 12th largest economy in terms of GDP, but it has an outsized influence in the west and, yes, an enemy of the west.  But the biggest threat to the West is China.  

[Kieran00001]

42 minutes ago, Kiwiken said:

I have never said or inferred that Russia promotes Democracy and openness anymore than China does. On the whole neither do many in the west. The Tabloids may say otherwise but the truth on the ground has never been that great

 

You said this.

Quote

All of these Countries project their vision for the World through different means.

When it suits they promote Democracy and openness. Other times they too undermine Democratic Countries and topple Leaders they do not see as Sympathetic to their views.

Russia is no worse than many others.

And what I am saying is that Russia does not promote democracy and openness, they only do the undermining of democratic countries, so they are worse than the countries who do the undermining of democratic countries but also do promote democracy and openness. 

 

And to be fair, there are not many countries that undermine democratic countries, that is mainly just the USA, whereas all of Europe just do the promoting of democracy and openness without every undermining democratic countries, so surely by using your own measures; promotion of democracy and the undermining of democracy; Russia are amongst the worst.

[Curt1591]

"Insidious" pretty much describes most governments. 

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Not only that, the organised thugs that rampaged through Europe have been told in no uncertain terms not to show up at this tournament ... so English fans are safe because Putin wants a propaganda victory. 

I thought English soccer fans were the organised thugs that rampaged through Europe.

Plenty of evidence that British soccer hooligans are not nice people.

Edited July 8, 2018 by thaibeachlovers

[AlexRich]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I thought English soccer fans were the organised thugs that rampaged through Europe.

Plenty of evidence that British soccer hooligans are not nice people.

Eh? The point flew right over your head?

[puipuitom]

When the West-WWEuropeans asked the US to stay with a military presence, they did, withotu much interfearance in these coutnries. The Soviets invited themselves and did one after another coupe d'etat in Eastern Europe.

When France asked NATO and the US to leave… they did. When Poland, DDR, Czechoslovakia, Hungary asked the Soviets to leave, they send tanks.

When The US and the Soviets signed an agreement the Soviets witdrew their military and the US promised NEVER to invade Cuba. Till today, that agreement holds.

When the North-Koreans had a military manouvre, in 1950, they suddenly invaded the South

[nontabury]

10 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Which according to the referendum would mean that 48 percent of UK citizens are traitors. The UK is doomed.

Not at all. 48% did in fact vote to remain,this was after a prolonged bout of Project Fear, that we now know was completely false. Now in 2018 many of those remain voters realise how the media establishment mislead them, and accept that the democratic decision should be followed. Unfortunately there are still many remain voters wearing blinkers,while others wish to remain inside the hated E.U for their own selfish reasons.

 

 What is a fact,is that democracy has now been consigned to the side line in British politics.

 

 

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, LomSak27 said:

So the EU has poisoned and killed more than three people ( the Polonium 210, used to murder spy Alexander Litvinenko in 06, included here) and poisoned but not killed, more than the two, who remain in the hospital fighting for there life, like RUSSIA has.

Wow! I am  always the last to know.. Those evil Euros
.

At the present time we do not know with 100% certainty that the Russian State was responsible for these actions. However,even if it is,I also know that Russia is not a friend of the E.U. And therefore I take the veiw,that the enemy of my enemy(E.U.) is my friend.

[Becker]

48 minutes ago, weri said:

stupidity at it's best, are people so brainwashed that they believe the lies of the deceitful west?? we should thank Putin for keeping his cool and not getting provoked by the likes of May. Trump, Turnbull who are hell bent to start a nuclear war, for what?? Just be thankful that the big bear hasn't wiped the earth with you ?

Hello Ivan.

[Oziex1]

The biggest threats to our freedom I see, are from our our own governments,. 

 

The psychopathic war mongers, that are the leaders of the west with their military industrial complexes, led by the home of the brave and the land of the free.

 

I will of course include Russia and China in this club of war mongering psychos.

 

So yeah, we all have to share the blame for the hostile world we live in.

[Chomper Higgot]

33 minutes ago, nontabury said:

At the present time we do not know with 100% certainty that the Russian State was responsible for these actions. However,even if it is,I also know that Russia is not a friend of the E.U. And therefore I take the veiw,that the enemy of my enemy(E.U.) is my friend.

You sir don’t know who your enemy is.

[Kieran00001]

Quite worrying that there are 20 posters who think Russia are innocent, a bona fide dictator who has put hundreds of his political opponents in labour camps and had hundreds more murdered while turning his friends into billionaires at the expense of his people, 13% of which live in extreme poverty, innocent of what exactly?

 

Quote

“I can eat one loaf of bread per week. In our neighbourhood the cats and dogs have gone missing, because meat is such a rarity. We may even start eating ourselves, just like the peasants did under Stalin’s purges,” Anatoly Kuznetsov, 45, an unemployed doctor from Tomsk

Quote

“In Soviet times, it was better because we queued for hours but there was usually some food guaranteed. Now, if you do not have the money, they don’t even look your way. You have to go hungry, your children starve, you are stuck in the hell that Putin has built for you. Yes, many love Putin, but all I see is hungry people who live in horrible grey blocks and have no hope,” Irina Mikhailov, 58, who works as a nurse at her local hospital in Norilsk.

 

[Kieran00001]

22 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You sir don’t know who your enemy is.

 

It really is quite odd that there are currently people who trust the KGB over their own government.

[munchlet]

Though I accept that the US under Trump is making retrograde steps, the  fact of the matter is that Russia is a bad egg, but there is a worse egg out there, China. They will be the cause of the Third World War. Just look at what they are doing in the South China Sea, and the belt and road initiative. If ASEAN does not get its act together defensively, China will pick the ASEAN nations off one by one. They've done it with Cambodia and Laos. They tried with the Burmese, but the army there saw through the ruse. The Chinese have the most fascistic, murderous and totalitarian police state on the face of the planet, with the possible exception of North Korea. NO amount of political freedom with ever be willingly allowed by the communist party. The sooner the world wakes up to the threat of the Chinese and their desire for world hegemony, the better. Trump maybe an idiot when it comes to trade wars, but he is right that the EU and NATO allies do not spend enough on defence, they should step up to the plate, ASEAN needs to do the same so that we can all face up the the Chinese menace. The Russians are just an inconvenient side show by comparison to the Chinese.

[Kieran00001]

Quite worrying that there are 20 posters who think Russia are innocent, a bona fide dictator who has put hundreds of his political opponents in labour camps and had hundreds more murdered while turning his friends into billionaires at the expense of his people, 13% of which live in extreme poverty, innocent of what exactly?

 

Quote

“I can eat one loaf of bread per week. In our neighbourhood the cats and dogs have gone missing, because meat is such a rarity. We may even start eating ourselves, just like the peasants did under Stalin’s purges,” Anatoly Kuznetsov, 45, an unemployed doctor from Tomsk

Quote

“In Soviet times, it was better because we queued for hours but there was usually some food guaranteed. Now, if you do not have the money, they don’t even look your way. You have to go hungry, your children starve, you are stuck in the hell that Putin has built for you. Yes, many love Putin, but all I see is hungry people who live in horrible grey blocks and have no hope,” Irina Mikhailov, 58, who works as a nurse at her local hospital in Norilsk.

 

[Kieran00001]

2 minutes ago, munchlet said:

Though I accept that the US under Trump is making retrograde steps, the  fact of the matter is that Russia is a bad egg, but there is a worse egg out there, China. They will be the cause of the Third World War. Just look at what they are doing in the South China Sea, and the belt and road initiative. If ASEAN does not get its act together defensively, China will pick the ASEAN nations off one by one. They've done it with Cambodia and Laos. They tried with the Burmese, but the army there saw through the ruse. The Chinese have the most fascistic, murderous and totalitarian police state on the face of the planet, with the possible exception of North Korea. NO amount of political freedom with ever be willingly allowed by the communist party. The sooner the world wakes up to the threat of the Chinese and their desire for world hegemony, the better. Trump maybe an idiot when it comes to trade wars, but he is right that the EU and NATO allies do not spend enough on defence, they should step up to the plate, ASEAN needs to do the same so that we can all face up the the Chinese menace. The Russians are just an inconvenient side show by comparison to the Chinese.

 

Don't believe the hype.  China occupied that island in the Spratly's and started construction, and the US started watching with fear as they have a number of interests in the area, they saw from their spy-planes a large round building being constructed and it hit the headlines that China was building a missile silo, the US started buzzing them with bombers, China sent war ships and installed anti aircraft guns on the beach, the US backed off, China finished their construction of their round building, it was a light house, its quite nice, isn't it?  It also helps all the worlds ships not run aground on the Spartly's, wasn't that considerate of them?  Unfortunately the US are too desperate not to lose face to admit that they were wrong.

 

[Morch]

 

@Kieran00001

 

Lighthouses hold some significance with regard to sovereignty:

 

China’s Lighthouses in the Spratlys

https://thediplomat.com/2015/10/chinas-lighthouses-in-the-spratlys/

 

And anyway, this poll is about Russia.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

53 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You sir don’t know who your enemy is.

My enemy probably ISN'T the people that my so called leaders are telling me are my enemy. My leaders don't have my best interests at heart.

Interesting that the EU leaders are sucking up to China and Iran, which probably are not my friends.