Just now, whatsupdoc said:

Barnier is an excellent negotiator, knows all the relevant details, keeps calm and sticks to the rules.

So a very good candidate to take Junkers position in the future.

Just say non! Excellent!

Barnier is an excellent negotiator, knows all the relevant details, keeps calm and sticks to the rules.
So a very good candidate to take Junkers position in the future.

An excellent negotiator? Are you privy to the talks or have direct inside knowledge to back up that summary.

Both sides know all the details, there's more to negotiating then calmness and sticking to the rules.

If sticking to the rules ends up in failed talks then the summary isn't excellent, however compromise, thinking outside the box and originality is also key vital points.



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3 minutes ago, citybiker said:

An excellent negotiator? Are you privy to the talks or have direct inside knowledge to back up that summary.

Both sides know all the details, there's more to negotiating then calmness and sticking to the rules.

If sticking to the rules ends up in failed talks then the summary isn't excellent, however compromise, thinking outside the box and originality is also key vital points.



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Turning up for more than 4 hours in seven months, bringing your notes with you and arriving sober are probably better indications of competence.

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Exclusive: 1922 committee receives 48 letter and May could now face 'Vote of No Confidence'

 

"...multiple high level sources tell Politicalite that the required 48 letters... have been received."

Nothing on the news RR about this?

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

Nothing on the news RR about this?

I have seen nothing else on the topic other than multiple people tweeting the same link or variants of it, but if I learnt anything from watching The Thick of It, it's the incessent drip drip drip of negative comment that ultimately tips over the listing ship.

 

One potentially interesting opinion piece I found, but cannot read due to the paywall, is in the Telegraph: 'Is Theresa May guilty of treason? Pleanty of readers thinks so. Politicians would be wise to listen up.'

1 hour ago, citybiker said:

An excellent negotiator? Are you privy to the talks or have direct inside knowledge to back up that summary.

Both sides know all the details, there's more to negotiating then calmness and sticking to the rules.

If sticking to the rules ends up in failed talks then the summary isn't excellent, however compromise, thinking outside the box and originality is also key vital points.



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David Davis certainly wasn't good at details (nor much else).

Barnier has to keep 27 EU countries happy and in line. So far he has succeeded and that alone indicates he is doing a good job. That the UK still doesn't understand that you cannot have cake and eat it or cherry-pick (even after Barnier pointed it out many times) is not his fault. If the negotiations fail I would blame the UK for taking too long to get realistic and serious.

 

I honestly believe the EU was right to appoint Barnier as chief negotiator and would not be unhappy if he succeeded Junker.

David Davis certainly wasn't good at details (nor much else).
Barnier has to keep 27 EU countries happy and in line. So far he has succeeded and that alone indicates he is doing a good job. That the UK still doesn't understand that you cannot have cake and eat it or cherry-pick (even after Barnier pointed it out many times) is not his fault. If the negotiations fail I would blame the UK for taking too long to get realistic and serious.
 
I honestly believe the EU was right to appoint Barnier as chief negotiator and would not be unhappy if he succeeded Junker.

Perhaps you'd prefer a hard Brexit where it'll hurt the EU more than the UK....fine.

I agree HMG took to long, PMTM is quite rightly to blame, hence backlash & resignations. However, no skin off my nose if Brussels gets a hiding, harsh lesson learnt.

Barnier is also accountable for his actions, it's also well know that selective members of the 27 are also unhappy at his skills.

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9 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Perhaps you'd prefer a hard Brexit where it'll hurt the EU more than the UK....fine.

I agree HMG took to long, PMTM is quite rightly to blame, hence backlash & resignations. However, no skin off my nose if Brussels gets a hiding, harsh lesson learnt.

Barnier is also accountable for his actions, it's also well know that selective members of the 27 are also unhappy at his skills.

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The proof is in the pudding but I am sure the vast majority of economists think (a hard) Brexit will hurt the UK most. But sure, the EU (especially Ireland, The Netherlands, Belgium and France) will also suffer damage.

All the more reason why Brexit is such a stupid idea.

18 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Perhaps you'd prefer a hard Brexit where it'll hurt the EU more than the UK....fine.

I agree HMG took to long, PMTM is quite rightly to blame, hence backlash & resignations. However, no skin off my nose if Brussels gets a hiding, harsh lesson learnt.

Barnier is also accountable for his actions, it's also well know that selective members of the 27 are also unhappy at his skills.

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Are there any members of the EU that send  more  than 44 percent of their exports to the UK? If not, how would a hard Brexit hurt an EU member more than the UK?

The proof is in the pudding but I am sure the vast majority of economists think (a hard) Brexit will hurt the UK most. But sure, the EU (especially Ireland, The Netherlands, Belgium and France) will also suffer damage.

All the more reason why Brexit is such a stupid idea.

Would these be the same economists scaremongering project fear and we're proved wrong.

 

Proof in the pudding is the EU desperate for continued city of London access, due to the domino affect of talent, investment and infrastructur.

 

LAstly, Europe's business & industries don't want a hard Brexit either, for example just ask Germany.....

 

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A hard Brexit is not something either side should be aspiring too.

 

But there seems to be a lot of people on here who want one.

 

And a soft brexit will involve accepting we play by the single market's rules  

On 7/10/2018 at 7:28 AM, tebee said:

Ok if he was so clever why did he  never come up with a workable brexit plan?

Just for you tebee

 

It must be true because it comes from the remainers Bible.

 

Quote

Hardline Tory Brexiters plan to try to force Theresa May to publish a rival draft of the white paper drawn up by David Davis in the run-up to last week’s Chequers summit, which Downing Street ditched.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/11/brexiters-bid-to-force-release-of-david-davis-rival-white-paper

 

So your multiple posts on this thread, castigating Davis for being planless, clueless and an all round lazy b@st@rd appear to be well wide of the mark.

 

So easy to be critical sitting behind a keyboard.

5 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Just for you tebee

 

It must be true because it comes from the remainers Bible.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/11/brexiters-bid-to-force-release-of-david-davis-rival-white-paper

 

So your multiple posts on this thread, castigating Davis for being planless, clueless and an all round lazy b@st@rd appear to be well wide of the mark.

 

So easy to be critical sitting behind a keyboard.

Given the quality of Davis' other efforts in this direction, what are the odds that his draft is anything but clueless?

13 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I have seen nothing else on the topic other than multiple people tweeting the same link or variants of it, but if I learnt anything from watching The Thick of It, it's the incessent drip drip drip of negative comment that ultimately tips over the listing ship.

 

One potentially interesting opinion piece I found, but cannot read due to the paywall, is in the Telegraph: 'Is Theresa May guilty of treason? Pleanty of readers thinks so. Politicians would be wise to listen up.'

Brexit zealot makes a statement he can’t back up, gets challenged on his fiction so resorts to hearsay.

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

Just for you tebee

 

It must be true because it comes from the remainers Bible.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/11/brexiters-bid-to-force-release-of-david-davis-rival-white-paper

 

So your multiple posts on this thread, castigating Davis for being planless, clueless and an all round lazy b@st@rd appear to be well wide of the mark.

 

So easy to be critical sitting behind a keyboard.

From the linked article:

 

“One source suggested the earlier draft was “locked in a safe” in the Department for Exiting the EU, and neither Davis nor his close aide Stewart Jackson appear to have retained a copy.”

 

If Davis has any intention at all of fighting for ‘his version of Brexit’ why didn’t he keep a copy of his ‘magnum opus’?

 

Rather he chose to make only one draft copy and then left that locked in a safe at his office as he ‘flounced’ out the door.

 

Are these the actions of a man fighting for what he believes or of a man who could not get away from the whole mess quick enough?

 

Before releasing Davis’ plan have a word with Davis himself and ask if he still wants anything to do with it.

 

And don’t take unintelligible mumbles as a yes.

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Given the quality of Davis' other efforts in this direction, what are the odds that his draft is anything but clueless?

Given that we don't really know the true extent and quality (or do you really mean quantity?) of Davis' other efforts in this direction, what are the odds that your comment is anything but clueless?

A hard Brexit is not something either side should be aspiring too.
 
But there seems to be a lot of people on here who want one.
 
And a soft brexit will involve accepting we play by the single market's rules  

Want & forced into is the key factor here.

If the EU want to cut off its own face then it shows just out of touch, arrogant and autocratic it really is.

The UK will have its own rules to, it's aptly named independence which others will have to abide by, it works both ways

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3 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Want & forced into is the key factor here.

If the EU want to cut off its own face then it shows just out of touch, arrogant and autocratic it really is.

The UK will have its own rules to, it's aptly named independence which others will have to abide by, it works both ways

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Right now the UK is getting BINO.

Right now the UK is getting BINO.

I disagree.

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4 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Just for you tebee

 

It must be true because it comes from the remainers Bible.

 

Quote

Hardline Tory Brexiters plan to try to force Theresa May to publish a rival draft of the white paper drawn up by David Davis in the run-up to last week’s Chequers summit, which Downing Street ditched.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/11/brexiters-bid-to-force-release-of-david-davis-rival-white-paper

 

So your multiple posts on this thread, castigating Davis for being planless, clueless and an all round lazy b@st@rd appear to be well wide of the mark.

 

So easy to be critical sitting behind a keyboard.

Can I also remind the honorable gentleman that David Davis was the man that said  to MPs that sectoral reports existed in “excruciating detail” but 6 months later denied they ever existed.

 

When forced to produce them they seemed to have been copied from children's books by the intern.

 

 

 

The dog ate my homework doesn't work so well at ministerial level.

 

 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/8ca38822-da75-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b482

 

 

  

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

Given that we don't really know the true extent and quality (or do you really mean quantity?) of Davis' other efforts in this direction, what are the odds that your comment is anything but clueless?

For clueless no need to go any further than prior forum uber hard Brexiteers' defence of false statements put out by both Davis and Johnson. Its a routine habit.

4 hours ago, citybiker said:

I disagree.

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Davis, Johnson and Rees-Mogg don't.

Davis, Johnson and Rees-Mogg don't.

The paper (12 principles compacted into 100+ pages) has yet too be voted/passes by parliament(inc any amendments) and be accepted and passed by the remaining 27 MS.

 

What do you think it’s chances of survival in its current form are?

 

 

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5 minutes ago, citybiker said:

The paper (12 principles compacted into 100+ pages) has yet too be voted/passes by parliament(inc any amendments) and be accepted and passed by the remaining 27 MS.

 

What do you think it’s chances of survival in its current form are?

 

 

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The PM has telegraphed the UK’s position.

 

The EU negotiating team will understand she has considered wider concerns than those of the Brexiteers, very specifically the risks to the economy and the concerns of businesses.

 

As the actress said to the Bishop, when you start off soft, it doesn’t get any harder.

1 minute ago, citybiker said:

The paper (12 principles compacted into 100+ pages) has yet too be voted/passes by parliament(inc any amendments) and be accepted and passed by the remaining 27 MS.

What do you think it’s chancres of survival in its current form are?


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I would guess about zero percent. Even if the UK parliament could pass it, it would probably contain too many proposals that the EU has said from the beginning are unacceptable. On top of that, the EU will also ask the EEA countries and Switzerland for their opinion. Cannot imagine the white paper to survive all that scrutiny.

I would guess about zero percent. Even if the UK parliament could pass it, it would probably contain too many proposals that the EU has said from the beginning are unacceptable. On top of that, the EU will also ask the EEA countries and Switzerland for their opinion. Cannot imagine the white paper to survive all that scrutiny.

That’s a fair summary, There was always going to Brussels v Westminster conflicts irrespective how you spin it.


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4 hours ago, SheungWan said:

For clueless no need to go any further than prior forum uber hard Brexiteers' defence of false statements put out by both Davis and Johnson. Its a routine habit.

Perhaps you can show some examples because I don't remember these. 

3 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

I would guess about zero percent. Even if the UK parliament could pass it, it would probably contain too many proposals that the EU has said from the beginning are unacceptable. On top of that, the EU will also ask the EEA countries and Switzerland for their opinion. Cannot imagine the white paper to survive all that scrutiny.

Of course it won’t survive as it is.

 

It will only get softer.

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Of course it won’t survive as it is.

 

It will only get softer.

Either it will be no better than the deal Norway has (which is logical because the EU certainly would not want to upset Norway or any other associate member) or there will be no deal, probably because time runs out.

 

Since the white paper still tries to split the four freedoms and is not very clear about paying into the EU budget for single market access, a lot of softening still needs to be done to reach a final Brexit deal.

But with the UK government (and parliament) so divided on the issue it seems likely the chaotic circus will go on until the clock stops ticking.

24 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Either it will be no better than the deal Norway has (which is logical because the EU certainly would not want to upset Norway or any other associate member) or there will be no deal, probably because time runs out.

 

Since the white paper still tries to split the four freedoms and is not very clear about paying into the EU budget for single market access, a lot of softening still needs to be done to reach a final Brexit deal.

But with the UK government (and parliament) so divided on the issue it seems likely the chaotic circus will go on until the clock stops ticking.

They’ll go to extra time.

 

(But that’s not good news for the ‘home team’)