I sold my condo so do I need a lawyer or a conveyancer?

[maigeng]

Woohoo I finally sold my condo in Pattaya after knocking the price down from 5.9m to 4.2m.  I'm not counting on it until I see the money in my foreign bank account so let's see what happens but in the meantime should I engage a lawyer? Some  have said a lawyer is only worth it if you're buying because the selling process is straight forward and there's no onus on me to check anything however the agent who found me a buyer doesn't seem experienced. 

 

Should I be concerned about any scams?  How does the settlement process work?  I will fly to Thailand for the sale.  Do I need to bring the title and blue book?  Any other paperwork I need?  Do they transfer the money into my account and then I give them the title and sign the transfer papers? 

 

Thanks for any advice about the process, I've never sold a condo in Thailand before so not sure of the procedure.  I believe I need to show someone the Tor Tor 3 documents to show I brought the money into the country to buy a condo.  Can they arrange transfer of the sale price to my bank account in Hong Kong or does it need to be deposited into a Thai bank account?

Edited July 19, 2018 by maigeng

[BobBKK]

I've bought and sold 22 and never had a lawyer BUT I did have a Thai friend go over the contract. You might need 2 contracts. One for tax purposes (At LO) and one real one.  Get a 10% deposit.  The agent should be doing 99% of the work for you to get their 3/55 commission.

[maigeng]

Thanks Bob. The agent says the buyer has paid a 100k deposit even though he hasn't signed a sales contract yet. Does that sound strange to you? I would've thought anyone serious about buying would sign a contract before handing over any money. Also, how much is the standard agent commission?  I thought it was 5% of the sale price?

[KittenKong]

There is nothing standard about commission, though many agents will try and give you the impression that it is written in stone.

 

It is entirely negotiable.

 

5% is clearly insane and totally unjustifiable anywhere in the world.

[KittenKong]

27 minutes ago, maigeng said:

Should I be concerned about any scams?  How does the settlement process work?  I will fly to Thailand for the sale.  Do I need to bring the title and blue book?  Any other paperwork I need?  Do they transfer the money into my account and then I give them the title and sign the transfer papers? 

Anyone doing anything with money in Thailand should be concerned about scams, as they are very frequent here.

 

You should bring the chanote and blue book.

 

The buyer should prepare a cashier's cheque in THB in your name for the amount of the sale. You should verify this with the bank in question before the sale. Get photocopies of the buyers ID. At the Land Office, when they are about to do the transfer, you should be given the cheque by the agent/buyer. Do not accept private cheques or promises of transfers. Dont accept promises of any kind in fact. They are meaningless here.

Cash is the other option (and yes, you really do see people with huge bags of cash at the Land Office - talk about living in the dark ages).

 

You will need cash to pay the transfer taxes and fees and your agent should be able to calculate these in advance. It is entirely negotiable how these costs are split between the two parties. A common split is 50/50 but this is actually more favourable to the vendor than the law indicates, as in theory the vendor is responsible for the taxes and the buyer for the fees. Find out what the Land Office assessment value of the condo is. The fees/taxes will be based on that unless you are declaring a higher price, which would be rare.

 

You also need to work out how the agent will be paid.

 

After the sale, pay the cheque into your bank account here. Once it has cleared you can arrange to export the money to your overseas account. You will need to show the bank your original incoming transfer certificate to facilitate this. Do not trust other people to do this for you.

 

If the sale price exceeds the original amount on the FET (or TT3 if the condo was bought some time ago) then you may have to send the difference in small amounts, but your bank should be able to advise you about this in advance. Go and talk to them.

 

[smutcakes]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

There is nothing standard about commission, though many agents will try and give you the impression that it is written in stone.

 

It is entirely negotiable.

 

5% is clearly insane and totally unjustifiable anywhere in the world.

6% is standard in the US. Not saying its not insane, but its not that uncommon.

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, smutcakes said:

6% is standard in the US.

I know. I think that's insane also.

 

[baansgr]

5 hours ago, maigeng said:

Thanks Bob. The agent says the buyer has paid a 100k deposit even though he hasn't signed a sales contract yet. Does that sound strange to you? I would've thought anyone serious about buying would sign a contract before handing over any money. Also, how much is the standard agent commission?  I thought it was 5% of the sale price?

The agent has the deposit? You have no real commitment of a sale, dont go booking flights etc just quite yet

[maigeng]

 

5 hours ago, KittenKong said:

There is nothing standard about commission, though many agents will try and give you the impression that it is written in stone.

 

It is entirely negotiable.

 

5% is clearly insane and totally unjustifiable anywhere in the world.

 

I managed to get him down to 4%

[maigeng]

3 minutes ago, baansgr said:

The agent has the deposit? You have no real commitment of a sale, dont go booking flights etc just quite yet

Should I be asking the 10% deposit is deposited into my Thai bank account?

[dotpoom]

Bought and sold many properties here, never had a Lawyer, either the agent or the wife took care of the paperwork from contract to Land Office.

[scorecard]

And make sure there is some plan of action for the fast transfer of the electricity, telephone, internet, cable TV, etc., accounts from your name to the buyers' name. I always pushed the agent to take care of this insting that it must be done within 24 hours (except where Sat / Sun is involved). Always gave the agent copies of very recent bills so there is no confusion about names and account numbers etc., when the agent goes to the actual offices of each utility. some calculations will be needed so that you make final payments up to the date of sale. If the agent seems inexperienced I would go with the agent to the utility offices to ensure final payments (your responsibility for payments) are  made and name is transferred. 

 

If you don't take care of this there is the possibility the new owner doesn't pay subsequent bills (which are ongoing in your name and the utilities start legal action against you to recover the O/S balances. 

 

 

[Lucky mike]

You need someone to oversee sale though to exchange and settlement,  why would you not use a lawyer...maybe you should speak to principal of real estate and tell him your concerns....saving money great but not at the expense of sale falling over.....

[BobBKK]

7 hours ago, maigeng said:

Thanks Bob. The agent says the buyer has paid a 100k deposit even though he hasn't signed a sales contract yet. Does that sound strange to you? I would've thought anyone serious about buying would sign a contract before handing over any money. Also, how much is the standard agent commission?  I thought it was 5% of the sale price?

In Pattaya, unfortunately, it is 5% but 3% almost everywhere else. I'd like you to see that 100k and I'd have thought it impossible anyone would pay it without a signed contract as you suggest.

 

BTW please do read carefully about the 2 contract it will save you BIG money. One for 'standard assessment' by LO and one for the real amount which will be substantially more. Don't just sign the lesser one or you could be in lots of doggy poo. Good luck.

Edited July 19, 2018 by BobBKK

[newnative]

31 minutes ago, Lucky mike said:

You need someone to oversee sale though to exchange and settlement,  why would you not use a lawyer...maybe you should speak to principal of real estate and tell him your concerns....saving money great but not at the expense of sale falling over.....

     I agree.  The agent should normally produce the sales contract and you and your lawyer should look it over carefully.  Make sure there are clauses dealing with what happens should either the buyer or seller back out of the contract.  The buyer should forfeit the deposit if he backs out after the contract signing.  And, clauses dealing with how the deposit will be held and  how closing costs will be split. 

     I think it's worth it to have the attorney with you at the Land Office to see that everything goes ok, verify the cashiers check, deal with any problems that might come up, and make sure you get all the correct paperwork,  but that's up to you.  Don't forget the debt-free letter you will need from your condo juristic; it can sometimes take up to a week to get it.

[watcharacters]

3 hours ago, KittenKong said:

I know. I think that's insane also.

 

 

Yeah but that 6% commission   comes with a fair amount of legal protection for BOTH the buyer as well as the seller.

 

Thailand has the perfect way around that. 

 

Both buyer AND seller are at risk.

 

 

[Peterw42]

25 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

In Pattaya, unfortunately, it is 5% but 3% almost everywhere else. I'd like you to see that 100k and I'd have thought it impossible anyone would pay it without a signed contract as you suggest.

 

BTW please do read carefully about the 2 contract it will save you BIG money. One for 'standard assessment' by LO and one for the real amount which will be substantially more. Don't just sign the lesser one or you could be in lots of doggy poo. Good luck.

Nowadays the land office has there own realistic valuations that you cannot go under, last 2 condos I have bought, the land office valuation was around the same as the contract/sale price, Often if its a discounted sale, the land office valuation can be higher than the sale price.

[watcharacters]

6 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Nowadays the land office has there own realistic valuations that you cannot go under, last 2 condos I have bought, the land office valuation was around the same as the contract/sale price, Often if its a discounted sale, the land office valuation can be higher than the sale price.

 

Thank you Peter.

 

You are one of the absolute  smartest members of TVF.

 

If OK for you, please expect a nomination for "Poster of the Year"  next  chance.

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by watcharacters

[smutcakes]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

     I agree.  The agent should normally produce the sales contract and you and your lawyer should look it over carefully.  Make sure there are clauses dealing with what happens should either the buyer or seller back out of the contract.  The buyer should forfeit the deposit if he backs out after the contract signing.  And, clauses dealing with how the deposit will be held and  how closing costs will be split. 

     I think it's worth it to have the attorney with you at the Land Office to see that everything goes ok, verify the cashiers check, deal with any problems that might come up, and make sure you get all the correct paperwork,  but that's up to you.  Don't forget the debt-free letter you will need from your condo juristic; it can sometimes take up to a week to get it.

100% agree, for such a nominal amount at the very least it gives peace of mind. When i purchased i ran all correspondence with the developer through the lawyer, including SPA and when i transferred i had them there to oversee  and advise if necessary.  When i sell it would be handled by them as well. I think all told for the acquisition it was about 50K. 

[inThailand]

If the op bought the condo how can he be so clueless about selling it?

 

The process of selling a condo is the easiest of them all but you still need to understand the process, the risks and the environment your in to avoid the multitude of pitfalls. 

[sexyman]

That is a significant discount on the original asking price.. Just wondering if you got any profit or was it money back from this deal. I certainly hope you didn't lose money. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by sexyman

[scorecard]

23 hours ago, scorecard said:

And make sure there is some plan of action for the fast transfer of the electricity, telephone, internet, cable TV, etc., accounts from your name to the buyers' name. I always pushed the agent to take care of this insting that it must be done within 24 hours (except where Sat / Sun is involved). Always gave the agent copies of very recent bills so there is no confusion about names and account numbers etc., when the agent goes to the actual offices of each utility. some calculations will be needed so that you make final payments up to the date of sale. If the agent seems inexperienced I would go with the agent to the utility offices to ensure final payments (your responsibility for payments) are  made and name is transferred. 

 

If you don't take care of this there is the possibility the new owner doesn't pay subsequent bills (which are ongoing in your name and the utilities start legal action against you to recover the O/S balances. 

 

 

 

Also need to ensure the buyer is well aware / fully understands that he/she will have to prove (by bank letter / document) when the money came into Thailand and prove that it entered Thailand with a 'label' for condo purchase or very similar.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by scorecard

[BobBKK]

22 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Nowadays the land office has there own realistic valuations that you cannot go under, last 2 condos I have bought, the land office valuation was around the same as the contract/sale price, Often if its a discounted sale, the land office valuation can be higher than the sale price.

Not in Chiang Mai at least Peter. I just sold another condo last month for 4.7m and paid tax on the standard 2.4m for that building.  Anyway he needs to find out (his agent should do that).

[helloagain]

Where shall i start. Need an agent NO. Lawyer i would so easy to get screwed and they will tell you how to save a bit of money that all do. This is thailand

[alex tiny]

What about paying off THAI bank mortgage. My wife has been told by her bank she has to pay off mortgage now before sale of her shop otherwise it will take the bank about one month to process paper work. I assumed that paying mortgage would be part of closing process day of sale closing.