temporary foriegn 'ownership' of property when thai wife dies

[huawei]

^^^ yes he can register himself if he is the administrator of the estate. I was the administrator of my wife’s estate, house cash etc..

 

Why are you going on about the 1 year as if it is absolute, it is not..

 

The key to this is being the administrator and in control and a good lawyer

 

i was show great compassion by the court and the land department I also had a good lawyer who I had known for 10 plus years. I got 661/3rd..

 

 

[trd]

No No No - you cant sell - period. You have no ownership 'rights'.
The title has to be transferred within a year (sooner better), but you cannot do that.
See a lawyer.
I am out of here.
 
 

Elvis has left the building.

[musiclover]

4 hours ago, Muhendis said:

I suggest you read this musiclover and perhaps review and tell us about your "personal experience".

www.samuiforsale.com/knowledge/inheritance-laws-thailand.html

Foreign land ownership by succession

Section 93 of the Land Code Act: "A foreigner who acquires land by inheritance as statutory heir can have an ownership in such land upon a permission of the Minister of Interior. However, the total plots of land shall not be exceeding of those specified in Section 87".

Any foreigner who is married to a Thai national is under section 1629 Civil and Commercial Code a statutory heir (i.e heirs who are so entitled by Thai law) and it seems that he can apply for permission of ownership of inherited land from his Thai spouse pursuant to section 93 of the Land Code Act. But ownership will not be given to the foreign spouse. The over fifty year old Section 93 of the Land Code Act is written for inheritance of land by foreigners under a treaty (section 86 of the Land Code Act) and does not apply to foreigners acquiring land by inheritance from a Thai spouse. There is currently no treaty with any country allowing any foreigners to own land therefore no Minister of Interior will or can give permission to any foreigner to own land in Thailand. Note that it is only since 1999 that Thai nationals married to a foreigner are legally allowed to acquire land (read up).

The answer to the question 'can a foreigner inherit land in Thailand' is yes, as a statutory heir, but he cannot register ownership of the land because he will not be given permission. Under present law he must dispose of the land within a reasonable period (meaning up to 1 year) to a Thai national. If the foreigner fails to dispose of the land the Director-General of the Land Department is authorized to dispose of the land and retain a fee of 5% of the sale price before any deductions or taxes.

I don't have to read about this as I have personal experience!    

   

            I can tell you that I did register ownership of the land personall(on chanote) and was under no legal pressure to dispose of such....though I did eventually transfer it to a company....albeit with heavy taxes based on Land office value!

 

 

[huawei]

Just to add another fact to this thread. In my case the house was gifted to a minor. 

[musiclover]

44 minutes ago, huawei said:

^^^ yes he can register himself if he is the administrator of the estate. I was the administrator of my wife’s estate, house cash etc..

 

Why are you going on about the 1 year as if it is absolute, it is not..

 

The key to this is being the administrator and in control and a good lawyer

 

i was show great compassion by the court and the land department I also had a good lawyer who I had known for 10 plus years. I got 661/3rd..

 

 

Absolutely true. I can confirm this as I had the same result....only I never had to go to any court except the one in BKK to confirm my being executor. I DID have hassle with family members but being executor I was able to deal with them.....and I still live in my house which was in my wife's name.   No court though...only negotiation.

[tutsiwarrior]

looks like now I have 50% of the property and the MiL has the other 50% as there was no will...if I can confirm this at the probate court then nothing further is required as I intend to gift my share to the daughter anyway and I only need to confirm that I can do this with the adjudication...16% here or there won't make any difference...

 

I'll talk to the daughter to have her pursue a prenuptial agreement as then everyone's concerns regarding any issues down the line with a divorce shall then be addressed...she is a reasonable young woman and could easily see the benefit of this arrangement...she is now 'the lady of the house' and we already discuss household expenses together in a reasonable manner: 'tutsi, the AC in the pickup is not working again...' 'whaddaya mean it's not working? when's the last time we had a problem?' 'about a year ago to my reckoning, you want me to take it to the dealer or to the cousin's husband's garage? the dealer is much more expensive...' 'just make sure wherever ye take it that they do a pressure test to check fer leaks before they re - charge the system...' 'agreed...gonna need 800baht'...

 

sorta like that, we understand each other...it helps that I've been around for 15 years and am 'part of the woodwork'...we were all damaged (MiL included; just like everywhere else people don't like to see their children die before they do) when my wife died and share a tragedy...

 

thanks to everyone for their input especially those with knowledge of the property code...the way forward is now a lot clearer...

 

 

Edited July 30, 2018 by tutsiwarrior

[orchidfan]

On 7/29/2018 at 1:59 PM, tutsiwarrior said:

a respected and knowledgeable TVF member advised that the 'permission to stay based upon marriage' should remain effective until expiry which in my case is in Dec...then I would have to make a different arrangement, ie, season some money in the bank in advance and switch to a retirement extension...

 

 

Thanks. . Suspect you are quite correct. So if wife passes away..it's goodbye unless changing to the retirement "extension" route.

Ubonjoe. .your thoughts?

[tutsiwarrior]

as a follow up the court lawyer advised that as I was gonna give the property to the daughter that it would be better if the MiL give her 50% share to me and at the provincial court she was 'put on the stand' to declare her intention in this regard...I was standing by but my input was not required as my name appeared on the documentation (voluminous)...thus with the  court disposition in hand we shall proceed to the land office for the transfer of ownership but not before a pre nuptial agreement is in hand as the daughter's unofficial 'village' wedding is going ahead in a couple of months...

 

the court was a distressingly unpleasant affair with shuffling barefoot prisoners in leg chains and many other frightened attendees and etc...and the judge was a bombastic stentorian <deleted> and my MiL is a frail 75 y.o. woman and I was about stand up and yell: 'hey! take it easy, she's a sick old woman!' but discretion won out as the better part of valor...there were many unpleasant looking uniformed guards at hand with handguns strapped to their hips...best to avoid court business if possible...

 

later we got breakfast downstairs outside of the provincial lock up with the howling of those incarcerated therein a few feet away...but the kweiteo with muu daeng was quite nice I hadta admit...

 

 

 

[anyone]

On 7/29/2018 at 1:23 PM, orchidfan said:

Slightly off topic..but apart from the house and contents..what happens to a farang 's "Permission to stay based on marriage " if one 's Thai wife passes away?

I'm interested too. Is foreigner will become just "tourist" with 1-month visa?.. No "special" status?

[Arkady]

I don't have direct experience of the OP's specific case but my understanding is that the property can be technically owned by your wife's estate, until the estate is settled. The estate of a Thai citizen is also regarded as Thai, regardless of the nationalities of the heirs.  You do not actually own it during this period but you can effectively manage the estate as executor or appoint someone to do this. If you inherit land as a statutory heir you will be given a year to dispose of, during which time the land remains owned by the estate. You will need to get the estate settled and pass the ownership of the land to your daughter before she registers her marriage.  A marriage ceremony and reception has no legal standing and doesn't create conjugal property.  Only registration of marriage does that.

 

You might find that the Land Office will refuse to transfer ownership without you canceling the usufruct agreement.  There is no specific law requiring this but this is what happened to me.  Our house was in the missus' name when I got Thai citizenship and I decided to pay a bit of tax to get it registered in our joint names.  Since I already had the usufruct which had cost me B20k, I told them I wanted to keep it and Mrs A told them she had no objection.  The officers said that was "mai suay".  So I asked them if it was illegal because we didn't mind it being "mai suay".  They couldn't cite any regulation against it but just point blank refused to do it in typical civil servant style and told me to choose between co-ownership and usufruct (Mrs A was not keen on surrendering complete ownership and I wasn't ready for a divorce).. No big deal, since I now own 50% of it but, if I could have kept the life long usufruct at no additional cost I would have.  It might be OK in this case with your daughter's consent because you will not be one of the owners.  However, you might be told you have to cancel the usufruct and set up a new one.  Hopefully that could be done by copying the wording of the existing one without having to pay a lawyer but there would be fees at the Land Office.

[tutsiwarrior]

4 hours ago, Arkady said:

I don't have direct experience of the OP's specific case but my understanding is that the property can be technically owned by your wife's estate, until the estate is settled. The estate of a Thai citizen is also regarded as Thai, regardless of the nationalities of the heirs.  You do not actually own it during this period but you can effectively manage the estate as executor or appoint someone to do this. If you inherit land as a statutory heir you will be given a year to dispose of, during which time the land remains owned by the estate. You will need to get the estate settled and pass the ownership of the land to your daughter before she registers her marriage.  A marriage ceremony and reception has no legal standing and doesn't create conjugal property.  Only registration of marriage does that.

 

You might find that the Land Office will refuse to transfer ownership without you canceling the usufruct agreement.  There is no specific law requiring this but this is what happened to me.  Our house was in the missus' name when I got Thai citizenship and I decided to pay a bit of tax to get it registered in our joint names.  Since I already had the usufruct which had cost me B20k, I told them I wanted to keep it and Mrs A told them she had no objection.  The officers said that was "mai suay".  So I asked them if it was illegal because we didn't mind it being "mai suay".  They couldn't cite any regulation against it but just point blank refused to do it in typical civil servant style and told me to choose between co-ownership and usufruct (Mrs A was not keen on surrendering complete ownership and I wasn't ready for a divorce).. No big deal, since I now own 50% of it but, if I could have kept the life long usufruct at no additional cost I would have.  It might be OK in this case with your daughter's consent because you will not be one of the owners.  However, you might be told you have to cancel the usufruct and set up a new one.  Hopefully that could be done by copying the wording of the existing one without having to pay a lawyer but there would be fees at the Land Office.

thanks for this advice regarding the refusal by the land office to cooperate with the usufruct...as I said earlier in this thread we had trouble with them when we went to register the usufruct 10 years ago but the lawyer I hired (I wasn't present) got in their faces and successfully forced the issue...

 

presently the court probate disposition document refers explicitly to the usufruct and my rights there under including the right to live at the property and control it until I die...and I'm presuming that some xenophobic clerk in a local land office ain't gonna attempt to mess with that...and I won't be transferring ownership to the step daughter, the MiL will in her capacity as the estate executor...

 

 

 

[tutsiwarrior]

5 hours ago, anyone said:

I'm interested too. Is foreigner will become just "tourist" with 1-month visa?.. No "special" status?

like I said earlier in this thread I've been reliably advised that my extension of stay based upon marriage is good until expiry which is in December at which time I plan to switch to a retirement extension...already got money seasoning in the bank...

 

unless of course le monsieur Big Joke has other plans for us in this regard between now and then...

 

'hey look out! yer epaulets are gettin' stuck in yer suspenders...'

 

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by tutsiwarrior

[Arkady]

11 hours ago, tutsiwarrior said:

thanks for this advice regarding the refusal by the land office to cooperate with the usufruct...as I said earlier in this thread we had trouble with them when we went to register the usufruct 10 years ago but the lawyer I hired (I wasn't present) got in their faces and successfully forced the issue...

 

presently the court probate disposition document refers explicitly to the usufruct and my rights there under including the right to live at the property and control it until I die...and I'm presuming that some xenophobic clerk in a local land office ain't gonna attempt to mess with that...and I won't be transferring ownership to the step daughter, the MiL will in her capacity as the estate executor...

 

Hopefully they won't mess with it.  But the head of registrations has a lot of discretion over transfers.  There is a mandatory interview with the transferor and transferee and, if they permit transfer with usufruct attached, the transferee will be quizzed to ensure she understands the implications of taking possession of land with a usufruct encumbrance. 

 

My own usufruct experience was a bit easier.  The head of registrations just said to the missus, "I know that you have bought the land with the farang's money but I still have to ask you, if you fully understand the implications of giving him a lifetime usufruct."  LOL. But I have varying experiences with heads of registration in different land offices, since getting Thai nationality, which further emphasises how little consistency there is and how much power the individuals have.  One head tried to block me from registering land and told me to put it in the wife's name because she didn't regard me as real Thai but I argued fiercely with her for my rights under the constitution (they are not used to people talking back particularly upcountry) and she was shocked and backed down.  Another in the same province couldn't have been nicer.  Asked for minimal documentation from me and gave me some really valuable advice about a road planned adjacent to the land.  

 

So, if you have a problem, it might be worth getting the lawyer to come and argue with them again.  Since the new owner will not be paying anything for the land, there won't be any reasonable grounds for objection.