UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[rixalex]

Ireland would setup the hard border, of course, to not risk getting fined for not controlling the EU external borders. So, before you’re telling someone to “get real”, you better do that yourself: As long as Ireland is an EU member, it is not just “two countries involved” but the EU (incl. Ireland) and the UK. And the EU, fortunately, takes protecting the single market seriously, as we can see with the EU fining the UK 2bn over letting in illegal Chinese goods ( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/08/uk-faces-2bn-fine-over-chinese-imports-scam-say-eu-anti-fraud-investigators). 
 
Of course, you can deny that, same as you denied that the UK would be worse and so many other things that everyone told you but you denying it. Your Brexit is a phantasy product built on phantasies. 

When faced with the choice of protecting the single market or maintaining the open border and the peace it has come to represent, you are the one living in cuckoo land if you think that out of fear of an EU fine, the Irish would erect and police a hard border. It's never going to happen. A solution would be found. It's marvellous the things that can be achieved when people put their minds to it. At the moment it suits remainers and the EU just nicely to pretend a solution doesn't exist. That's because they don't want it to. Why should they? Anything that makes Britain's exit easier or more comfortable is undesirable from their point of view. From yours too.

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[vogie]

A nice perspective from David Davis.

 

 

[bristolboy]

14 minutes ago, rixalex said:

When faced with the choice of protecting the single market or maintaining the open border and the peace it has come to represent, you are the one living in cuckoo land if you think that out of fear of an EU fine, the Irish would erect and police a hard border. It's never going to happen. A solution would be found. It's marvellous the things that can be achieved when people put their minds to it. At the moment it suits remainers and the EU just nicely to pretend a solution doesn't exist. That's because they don't want it to. Why should they? Anything that makes Britain's exit easier or more comfortable is undesirable from their point of view. From yours too.

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Yes, the irrationality of the EU clearly shows in that they don't want the uk to retain the privileges that come with being in the EU.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

On 11/17/2018 at 12:14 PM, melvinmelvin said:

have

don't fall into the trap of mixing long term policies and current short term leader

there are ways and means that Labour could be given the tiller without JC steering

 

Surely the alternative would be a Trotskyite nutter wrapped in the soviet flag? J M !? no thanks!!!

 

On 11/17/2018 at 12:45 PM, tebee said:

One quarter of young people will consider leaving Britain after brexit because of the reduced prospects there - the ones that go will be the ones that we need, those with the very same skills we need to rebuild the economy

Hilarity ensues once again, I see. Project Fear is alive and well on TVF as well as the MSM. ???? Quite a whopper, even by Tebee's standards though, is this one! Where will the youth of the UK emigrate to en-masse I wonder - will they try their luck in one of the wealth of economic miracles within the Eurozone perhaps!? ???? With varying rates of 'youth unemployment' ranging from 12% - 50% all I'd say is good luck to them. For those under 31 Australia might represent a better bet. ????

 

 

Looks like this draft deal isn't fit to be used as toilet paper. A 'Hard Brexit' never looked more appealing, if only to end this tiresome charade of Europhiles posing as dissidents. This premise was doomed to fail from day one with May in charge. Now her, Robbins and a few other traitorous wimps are apparently trying their best to stitch up the public. Here's to hoping there's someone with enough nuts to stand against Mrs. May and call for a confidence vote asap. 

 

Also, please correct me if I have misunderstood this article of parliament, but if the DUP (who are equally aggrieved by this draft-deal) remove their support for May / the Tories and side with Lab. with an understanding going forward - this could mean Cons would lose their majority in parliament - and so there wouldn't be any need for an election IF Labour can form a government backed by the DUP. This was the case in years gone by - there wouldn't be a call for an election if the opposition can form a new government - with a majority in parliament. That prospect is a little unsettling, but adds yet another dimension to proceedings. Would JC really renege on his promises that 'the people have spoken ' and 'Brexit should mean Brexit '? Would he call for a referendum or would he go ahead and attempt tp negotiate a better deal or go full HB? I don't think he could get away with anything but some form of Brexit at this point, but would a deal struck by his lot be any better? I doubt it. What poison might Comrade McDonnell et al pour into his ear, before the opportunity to remain is lost for good? Could that affect his decision? He seems to listen to these cretins far too much already.

 

All hypothetical, but what is for sure is that this deal - as understood properly once the fine-print has been read -has the unique distinction of enraging both sides of the HoC as well as both Remoaners and Brexiteers.

 

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-17/40-hidden-horrors-theresa-mays-brexit-deal

 

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

46 minutes ago, rixalex said:

A solution would be found. It's marvellous the things that can be achieved when people put their minds to it.

Sure, in cloud cuckoo land there’s a solution for everything, and cloud cuckoo land people can do everything. They can invent border technology that doesn’t exist yet,  they can negotiate the best deals in history, they don’t even need medicine or supplies when they can have some pills of sovereignty and a dose of take-back-control. Fortunately, no ones buys into phantasy products anymore; people get back to reality. 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Sure, in cloud cuckoo land there’s a solution for everything, and cloud cuckoo land people can do everything. They can invent border technology that doesn’t exist yet,  they can negotiate the best deals in history, they don’t even need medicine or supplies when they can have some pills of sovereignty and a dose of take-back-control. Fortunately, no ones buys into phantasy products anymore; people get back to reality. 

Necessity is the mother of invention.

[Chomper Higgot]

50 minutes ago, vogie said:

A nice perspective from David Davis.

 

 

David Davis has already been exposed as a liar.

[SheungWan]

20 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Surely the alternative would be a Trotskyite nutter wrapped in the soviet flag? J M !? no thanks!!!

This should concentrate some HB minds wonderfully.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

This should concentrate some HB minds wonderfully.

Glad to be of service. ???? However, I think most HB minds have already come to a (perhaps) similar conclusion. They, by and large, have the power of critical thought, unlike some. ????

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

David Davis has already been exposed as a liar.

Source?

[billd766]

15 hours ago, bomber said:

a poll did state something like 67% of leave voters were lets say not very bright,what did it for them was OAPs,benefit scroungers and the wetherspoons british is best brigade.folks like this 

Do you have any links to that poll so that we can all be as well informed as you seem to be? 

[Chelseafan]

7 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

Maybe other countries are not so warlike. Who says that 2% has to be delivered?
The UK should stop being the poodle of the United States. 
If Europe unites its defense budget, huge amounts of money could be saved. Generally only as much as necessary to defend yourself well.

The US. Why is it fair that countries like the US pay over 3% of GDP and yet Germany, with good growth only pay 1.2%.

Being warlike has nothing to do with it. In fact most of the spending is used outside Europe.

What Trump has said is that there was an agreement that each NATO nation would pay 2% of their GDP. Only 5 countries actually honour this agreement.

NATO is the near equivalent of EU uniting their defense budget - Whether the money is being used effectively is a different matter.

 

[tebee]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

A nice perspective from David Davis.

 

 

He's a lazy idiot but I actually sort of agree with him here.

 

But then one of the benefits of brexit is trashing the economy.

 

But the deal seems to encapsulate the worst aspect of EU membership and   EU non-membership - all to retain a few  benefits and end FOM - assuming we ever leave transition. 

[SheungWan]

29 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

David Davis has already been exposed as a liar.

 

19 minutes ago, vogie said:

Source?

David Davis.

[tebee]

 

[billd766]

14 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

A common European army would be good.
That would greatly prevent the danger of an intra-European war.
Thanks to the EU, since the end of World War II, there has been peace within Europe (except for the collapse of Yugoslavia).
EU member states could save a shitload of money by jointly developing and using the same defence systems.

Since the end of the war in 1945, long before the EU was conceived, peace in Europe was upheld by the countries in NATO, and in case you had not noticed NATO is still around.

 

IF it is decided to form a European Military, not just an Army, does that mean that the EU will abandon NATO?

[vogie]

Just now, SheungWan said:

 

David Davis.

Good to see your education has not been wasted.

[tebee]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

Since the end of the war in 1945, long before the EU was conceived, peace in Europe was upheld by the countries in NATO, and in case you had not noticed NATO is still around.

 

IF it is decided to form a European Military, not just an Army, does that mean that the EU will abandon NATO?

That probably rather depends if the US abandons Nato or not 

[welovesundaysatspace]

23 minutes ago, vogie said:

Necessity is the mother of invention.

I actually wouldn’t be surprised if the Brexiteers suggested to run the country based on fortune cookie wisdoms. 

[billd766]

14 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Yup! Labour's fault. Eu's fault, Remainer's fault.  Never just a bad job by Leavers, is it?  They have really mucked things up.

How so? The Brexit campaign is led by Teresa May who is a remainer, the majority of the cabinet ministers who have resigned were on the side of Brexit leaving the Brexit negotiations to the Remainers who are actually the ones who are screwing things up. 

[rixalex]

Yes, the irrationality of the EU clearly shows in that they don't want the uk to retain the privileges that come with being in the EU.

The EU isn't wrong to fight for the best deal it can. So should it.

The problem is, we aren't doing the same, thanks to this weak, capitulation-type mentality droned out on a daily basis by all those on the remain side.

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[transam]

10 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

I actually wouldn’t be surprised if the Brexiteers suggested to run the country based on fortune cookie wisdoms. 

Ah, a Chinese food kinda guy.....

[SheungWan]

15 minutes ago, billd766 said:

How so? The Brexit campaign is led by Teresa May who is a remainer, the majority of the cabinet ministers who have resigned were on the side of Brexit leaving the Brexit negotiations to the Remainers who are actually the ones who are screwing things up. 

So there we have it. Now add the Tory Cabinet to the High Courts, the Supreme Court, the House of Lords. All Enemies Of The People.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Chelseafan said:

The US. Why is it fair that countries like the US pay over 3% of GDP and yet Germany, with good growth only pay 1.2%.

Being warlike has nothing to do with it. In fact most of the spending is used outside Europe.

What Trump has said is that there was an agreement that each NATO nation would pay 2% of their GDP. Only 5 countries actually honour this agreement.

NATO is the near equivalent of EU uniting their defense budget - Whether the money is being used effectively is a different matter.

 

What is included to the 2%? Buying expensive fighters and other equipment from USA, making a nice profit for the US military contractors?

 

How about aftermath of the wars. Refugee management, rebuilding? Should those be included with the 2% defence budgets as well?

 

[transam]

1 minute ago, oilinki said:

What is included to the 2%? Buying expensive fighters and other equipment from USA, making a nice profit for the US military contractors?

 

How about aftermath of the wars. Refugee management, rebuilding? Should those be included with the 2% defence budgets as well?

 

Gawd....The UK got nothing back from you know who after 1945 helping folk out...Well did they.?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

So there we have it. Now add the Tory Cabinet to the High Courts, the Supreme Court, the House of Lords. All Enemies Of The People.

It's great that there are fair, strong and honest leaders who fight for the people! Farage, Mogg and Johnsson. They are the true backbone of British society currently. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, transam said:

Gawd....The UK got nothing back from you know who after 1945 helping folk out...Well did they.?

UK got to be part of the EU, which made UK prosperous, didn't it?

 

[transam]

Just now, oilinki said:

UK got to be part of the EU, which made UK prosperous, didn't it?

 

The UK was already prosperous, you didn't know that..?

 

If we were not we would not be paying huge amounts into the "club", would we..?

[tebee]

17 minutes ago, rixalex said:

The EU isn't wrong to fight for the best deal it can. So should it.

The problem is, we aren't doing the same, thanks to this weak, capitulation-type mentality droned out on a daily basis by all those on the remain side.

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The problem is the brexit that was promised in the referendum and the brexit that the leavers were trying to negotiate does not exist.

 

The only leverage we have over the EU is the collateral damage that will be caused to their industries if we crash out. They can pretty much dictate the terms they want, the " they need us more than we need them" narrative  was a colossal miscalculation.

 

Bad faith has been shown by so many actors on the UK side - Raub being the latest - that they have dictated a deal that ties us down - losing trust has it's price.

[vogie]

7 minutes ago, oilinki said:

It's great that there are fair, strong and honest leaders who fight for the people! Farage, Mogg and Johnsson. They are the true backbone of British society currently. 

I would pick them anytime over Juncker, Verhofstadt et al.