UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm obviously missing something here as this seems to support the brexit viewpoint?

 

Not that it matters as it's just a 'blog'.  Even more pointless than 'expert opinion'......

"A leavers view of the UK gov position". Right again!

[melvinmelvin]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm obviously missing something here as this seems to support the brexit viewpoint?

 

Not that it matters as it's just a 'blog'.  Even more pointless than 'expert opinion'......

hehe

I also noticed that

 

thought that tebee was probably suffering from an overdose of last week's BN

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Grouse said:

"I think I'm corrrect in saying that most leave constituencies voted leave?" For once you are definitely correct there!

 

Corbyn is a Brexiter as he intends more state support for industry. If he was strongly for remain, as he should be, Brexit would be dead by now. I suppose a big bus might come at exactly the right time!

Sorry, I corrected my post about the same time that you responded - desperately trying to make a point by my obvious mistake.

Edited November 23, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

Spot on.  By 2050 the world population reaches 10billion

and food becomes a problem.   One child per family,

like the Chinese did, leading to self sufficiency economy,

recommended by Rama 9. 

I expect the Americans will handle most of the population

culling, it is they that made the Georgia Stones.  

 

 

I think a Malthusian catastrophe is unlikely. Birth rate drops as economies improve. 

[adammike]

1 hour ago, transam said:

1939-1945....About the same, we moved on and prospered..

We prospered when we joined the EEC that became the EU.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, adammike said:

We prospered when we joined the EEC that became the EU.

Except the lowest paid didn't prosper....

[tebee]

11 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm obviously missing something here as this seems to support the brexit viewpoint?

 

Not that it matters as it's just a 'blog'.  Even more pointless than 'expert opinion'......

He does support brexit - I don't wholly agree with him, but at least he provides logical arguments for brexit as opposed to most of the nefarious waffling about sovereignty.

 

However I agree with him that the current deal is a steaming pile of you know what which satisfies no one. It's simply the only possible solution to ending FOM without completely wrecking the British economy -  and by not  completely wrecking the British economy I mean only wrecking half the British economy - our profitable services sector still gets thrown under the bus.

 

But I completely agree with him that most of our politicians and living in a world that has passed some years ago, and our current systems and goverment are unfit for purpose.

 

    This is especially problematic for the UK. We really did pick an inopportune time to go into a deep political slumber. Rather a lot has happened in the last twenty years which rewrites to book on most of what we know about trade, economics and the world in general. We have been to the brink of financial collapse, we have seen the mass adoption of internet, media has changed, work has changed and we have seen a massive expansion of global governance. Our politics isn't remotely equipped for these challenges.

 

Hence we get brexit, when we have really no idea how to deal with it. We are heading into a bad compromise, paying lip service to the vote without addressing what is wrong with our society and making everyone's lives worse   

[tebee]

23 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

hehe

I also noticed that

 

thought that tebee was probably suffering from an overdose of last week's BN

 

 

I'm happy to listen to leavers that provide coherent arguments for their case, him and his father are amongst the few that do.

 

I mostly don't agree with his conclusions, but I find many of his arguments are valid points.  

[melvinmelvin]

6 minutes ago, tebee said:

He does support brexit - I don't wholly agree with him, but at least he provides logical arguments for brexit as opposed to most of the nefarious waffling about sovereignty.

 

However I agree with him that the current deal is a steaming pile of you know what which satisfies no one. It's simply the only possible solution to ending FOM without completely wrecking the British economy -  and by not  completely wrecking the British economy I mean only wrecking half the British economy - our profitable services sector still gets thrown under the bus.

 

But I completely agree with him that most of our politicians and living in a world that has passed some years ago, and our current systems and goverment are unfit for purpose.

 

    This is especially problematic for the UK. We really did pick an inopportune time to go into a deep political slumber. Rather a lot has happened in the last twenty years which rewrites to book on most of what we know about trade, economics and the world in general. We have been to the brink of financial collapse, we have seen the mass adoption of internet, media has changed, work has changed and we have seen a massive expansion of global governance. Our politics isn't remotely equipped for these challenges.

 

Hence we get brexit, when we have really no idea how to deal with it. We are heading into a bad compromise, paying lip service to the vote without addressing what is wrong with our society and making everyone's lives worse   

 

that last paragraph of yours;

will not become easier to sort this after Brexit -- quite a challenge

 

 

[vogie]

41 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Can one country,in this instance Spain block an agreement?

Well no say the experts, unless your country is led by Angela Merkel.

I read it where it will take 8 countries (35% of the EU countries/states) to block Mays divorce paper and of of course as you stated Merkel just will not allow that. So not going to happen.

 

The difficult bit for May will be Parliament, but what MPs say and what MPs do are two different things.

[dick dasterdly]

If it only needs a majority vote from the eu to approve May's 'leave in name only deal' - then Spain is screwed re. Gibraltar.

 

Not sure why we are discussing this?

Edited November 23, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[talahtnut]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I think a Malthusian catastrophe is unlikely. Birth rate drops as economies improve. 

Economic improvement will not affect the majority.

Perhaps you've heard of the UK austerity, in the 5th.

or 6th of the richest countries in the world.

 

The world birth rate is approx 2.4 per family.

Birth rate drops when food is scarce.

 

A simple example: When bugs on an isolated petri dish

have consumed the nutrients, reproduced millions

and, oops, reached the edge of the dish.

What happens?   Answer: They are b=ggered.

 

 

[tebee]

 

[melvinmelvin]

27 minutes ago, vogie said:

I read it where it will take 8 countries (35% of the EU countries/states) to block Mays divorce paper and of of course as you stated Merkel just will not allow that. So not going to happen.

 

The difficult bit for May will be Parliament, but what MPs say and what MPs do are two different things.

 

do MPs do? I thought they were limited to say

 

[dick dasterdly]

Oilinki posted something many pages ago about much of the electorate not being happy about the 'open doors' policy - that allows poor eu citizens into the uK. 

 

Quite right when it comes to eu citizens from poor countries being allowed to automatically enter the country, and keep wages for the poorest as low as possible for uk companies....

 

He tried to twist this into 'uk people hating/feeling superior' to other nations....

 

[talahtnut]

37 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

The Tory minister is a twit.

The art in negotiation should be to convince everyone

thinks that they have the biggest portion of the pie.

so everyone wins. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by talahtnut
addition

[tebee]

May government’s Brexit aims were never achievable – we’ve been hunting a fantastical beast all along

 

https://theconversation.com/may-governments-brexit-aims-were-never-achievable-weve-been-hunting-a-fantastical-beast-all-along-107067

[melvinmelvin]

29 minutes ago, vogie said:

I read it where it will take 8 countries (35% of the EU countries/states) to block Mays divorce paper and of of course as you stated Merkel just will not allow that. So not going to happen.

 

The difficult bit for May will be Parliament, but what MPs say and what MPs do are two different things.

don't fall into that hate Germany Merkel trap

 

EU members are sovereign

Italy Sweden Finland Hungary Poland Bulgaria and more couldn't care less what Merkel says

she might scare the <deleted> out of Cyprus, Malta  and rest-Yugoslavia.

 

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, talahtnut said:

The Tory minister is a twit.

The art in negotiation should be to convince everyone

that they have the biggest portion of the pie.

so everyone wins. 

At the moment, only the uk loses....

[talahtnut]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

May government’s Brexit aims were never achievable – we’ve been hunting a fantastical beast all along

 

https://theconversation.com/may-governments-brexit-aims-were-never-achievable-weve-been-hunting-a-fantastical-beast-all-along-107067

May's aim is to produce a illusion for the electorate,

in the same way its been done all through history.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

40 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

that last paragraph of yours;

will not become easier to sort this after Brexit -- quite a challenge

 

 

As long as May is pursuing the leave in name only cause - brexit is screwed.

[tebee]

47 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

The Tory minister is a twit.

The art in negotiation should be to convince everyone

that they have the biggest portion of the pie.

so everyone wins. 

Yes, it seems a bit of a strange argument doesn't it ?

 

You're going to lose because of brexit, but that's fine, because everyone else is too....

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, JAG said:

 

I'm not sure what it has to do with the discussion at hand, other than a frankly rather pathetic attempt to continue your groundless crusade to try and establish that I am suffering from some sort of paranoia as regards foreigners. 

Remind me again, in a widespread taxi problem who was it that picked on drivers from a particular part of Europe.

[vogie]

49 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

don't fall into that hate Germany Merkel trap

 

EU members are sovereign

Italy Sweden Finland Hungary Poland Bulgaria and more couldn't care less what Merkel says

she might scare the <deleted> out of Cyprus, Malta  and rest-Yugoslavia.

 

 

 

 

Would it be fair to say that A Merkel makes decisions without consulting her other EU partners, if so what conclusions should we take from that?

[sandyf]

No doubt democracy will whip into action.

 

More than 80 Tories have criticised the package, pointing to a heavy defeat and a constitutional crisis, unless most can be talked around in the next few weeks of frantic arm-twisting.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-brexit-deal-eu-mps-blindfold-questions-future-unanswered-a8647511.html

[tebee]

43 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

As long as May is pursuing the leave in name only cause - brexit is screwed.

Brexit was screwed as soon as leave were able to promise the undeliverable "we'll be better off afterwards brexit"  in the referendum campaign.

 

No possible brexit is going to live up to those promises - It's just a case of how soon people realize this. Whatever sort of brexit happens people are going to be disappointed in it.

 

Just look now at the number of leavers who now say - we always said brexit would be painful and you'd end up worse off - they didn't. Those who say that have very selective memories.

[melvinmelvin]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Would it be fair to say that A Merkel makes decisions without consulting her other EU partners, if so what conclusions should we take from that?

well,

decisions re  Germany and German policy and doings  - yes

re EU or Commissions doings/policy - no    EU doesn't work that way

 

Merkel is an influential lady but she can not commandeer  the Commission or the EU

she has clout but zilch power

 

[JAG]

28 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Remind me again, in a widespread taxi problem who was it that picked on drivers from a particular part of Europe.

I give up, if you want to make an utter fool of yourself with this obsession, who am I to object. Fill your boots.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

How will the electorate react?  This is a very difficult one to answer.  Ordinarily Tories would be crucified at the next GE, but Labour are simply un-electable at present imo.  Corbyn et al delight socialists like me, and so are popular with true Labour supporters, and with the young, but in order to get elected Labour must gain the trust of the centre right; that just isn't going to happen. 

 

I think ennui may win the day: the working class could just turn their backs on politics, for the same reason most of us would like to.

 

Things could get tasty if another populist emerges.  I see a recipe for a far right nationalist government the like of which the UK has never seen.

I tend to agree MB.

 

A good summation of the current situation, IMHO.

 

I would argue that any ennui experienced by the electorate is totally understandable, as the sh*t show of the last 2 years has been enough to induce this in any voter, with the last 6 months being particularly toxic, I'd say. 

If the government are willing to say one thing and do another, and so blatantly & publicly as they have done of late, then the public will, justifiably, abstain from voting altogether at the next GE as both a protest and out of despair of the system - possibly in equal measure. It has never been clearer to most that one's vote really does count for nought! If it can be so easily ignored by the elite political class in power who are able to weasel their way out of abiding by the democratic will of the people, then what's the point of it all?

 

'- on voting; well do it if makes you feel better, but if it meant anything, they wouldn't let us do it in the first place' - Mark Twain. He always did have a point. 

 

 

This whole debacle could irrevocably damage the Tories, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the rise of a party like UKIP, but not necessarily them, that has actually been founded on and represents traditional conservative views. This whole labeling of the centre right - which is what most traditional Tory and UKIP voters are, in reality, as some kind of nationalist villainy just goes to show that we in the UK have not experienced REAL far-right politics or politicians in a position of power for a very long time. I don't really think far right parties are something the British abide anyway, as is shown by the woeful results of the BNP / NF every GE. However, with politics as fractured and the two main parties as weak as they currently stand, and while the electorate feels as cheated and disillusioned as they do, the time could be ripe for a more right-wing party to come to the fore to represent those voters who would like to vote for a real conservative party, which we don't have in the UK at the moment and haven't done for some years. If the betrayal of 17.4m people continues to play out as it is, then I'd imagine there will be either a mass abstention from voting in the next GE or there will be a rise in the anti-establishment movements that we saw with the likes of UKIP, who fomented the EU referendum in the first place through their rise in popularity and their threat to both Cons and Lab parties, a few years back. 

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Orac]

If it only needs a majority vote from the eu to approve May's 'leave in name only deal' - then Spain is screwed re. Gibraltar.
 
Not sure why we are discussing this?

The Withdrawl Agreement just requires QMV, our future trading arrangement requires all members to ratify it which is a problem because the political declaration is such a fudge at present. Potentially the issue would now be that Spain block any future trading agreement triggering a backstop, agreed by treaty, we cannot unilaterally remove.

Though the negotiations so far to get to the current point have been tough they are just a starter compared to what is to come.




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