UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

10 minutes ago, aright said:

Can you point to the business communities world wide who will stop dealing with the EU because of these costs and can you point out why a Union which depends heavily on exports would want to make access to their market so costly and difficult their suppliers would be forced to play quid pro quo?    

Thank you.

 

#1 reason why Project Fear is all a load of bluster and b**shit. Concocted in the first place by a bunch of people who have never had an iota of experience in business or the real world outside of a public school, parliamentary research office or the house of commons.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 minute ago, transam said:

I never wrote the post you have replied too...?

Yes, you're right, that was written by oilinki. Technical glitch in the TVF matrix? 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

Well that information has got the rest of the world shaking in its boots! ? Baguettes and berets to the ready monsieurs!

 

Whats more, you just know the French would hate having English as the official language of an EU military, which would be quite hilarious and perhaps a good enough reason to form such a group all by itself.

 

Seriously though, the whole idea of a United States of Europe is an unsavoury one and an EU military unworkable and ill advised to put it mildly. If you're a native of a smaller, less capable country I can understand why this might be more appealing, but the idea of a supranational army is a different ball game. NATO is in place already. The EU described by a few of its more radical supporters here is starting to sound increasing like a successor to the USSR. No thanks, I think not just us Brits, but the majority of continental Europeans don't want this, definitely didn't vote for it (as naturally enough for the EU - they were never asked) and wouldn't have done so if they were asked.

French president speaks decent English, would you agree?

 

I think the idea of French hating English language belongs to past generations. Younger generations are happy to communicate in English. At least with us, non native English speakers. I never had a communication problems when traveling in France (20 years ago), even if I knew only few French phrases. 

 

We'll probably have some sort of common border forces first. United States of Europe comes second and common military comes after that. These changes takes decades to realise. How the world looks at that point, might be different how it looks today. It will also define how integrated EU forces and NATO will be. 

 

 

[aright]

3 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Thank you.

 

#1 reason why Project Fear is all a load of bluster and b**shit. Concocted in the first place by a bunch of people who have never had an iota of experience in business or the real world outside of a public school, parliamentary research office or the house of commons.

And can I add bars on Soi Buakhao and LK Metro.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Yes, you're right, that was written by oilinki. Technical glitch in the TVF matrix? 

Blaming the system for one's own mistakes. That's the definition of Brexit ?

 

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

13 minutes ago, oilinki said:

French president speaks decent English, would you agree?

 

I think the idea of French hating English language belongs to past generations. Younger generations are happy to communicate in English. At least with us, non native English speakers. I never had a communication problems when traveling in France (20 years ago), even if I knew only few French phrases. 

 

We'll probably have some sort of common border forces first. United States of Europe comes second and common military comes after that. These changes takes decades to realise. How the world looks at that point, might be different how it looks today. It will also define how integrated EU forces and NATO will be. 

 

 

Macron is a smart enough fella, he speaks good English yes. But you might expect someone in his position and of his less advanced age, to speak English fairly well.

 

The French, for all their admirable qualities in certain other areas, are not renowned for their love of either the English or our English language. For different reasons that vary from person to person, I suspect. They have laws (see Toubon law - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toubon_Law) within France that actually mandate the use of French only and are seen as a blockade against English. The radio in France is another good example, that might be covered by the Toubon law, but I'm not sure, again it's mandated that a certain percentage of French radio stations only broadcast in French and play French music after a certain time of day. I know from experience (albeit minimal) and much anecdotal evidence from friends, family and acquaintances that they can be a bit prickly towards foreign language speakers and English speakers in particular, possibly due to the global hegemony of the English language? You might be right in that this is a somewhat outdated view and that younger French people are happy to converse in English when necessary. Possibly, but I can't confirm it.

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

11 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Blaming the system for one's own mistakes. That's the definition of Brexit ?

 

 

If you say so mate. ?

 

I can only copy and paste, the rest is up to the network.

 

It seems clear though that your view of Brexit and those who voted for it is as warped and misguided as your view of the future of the EU. ? 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CG1 Blue]

11 hours ago, adammike said:

And when TM called an election and asked the electorate to give her a majority to push through brexit they didn't give her a majority,they learned from their mistake in voting for brexit in the referendum.

Both major parties were committed to delivering Brexit in their manifestos for the GE. Only the Lib Dems promised to reverse it.  How did they get on in the election?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

If you say so mate. ?

 

I can only copy and paste, the rest is up to the network.

 

It seems clear though that your view of Brexit and those who voted for it is as warped and misguided as your view of the future of the EU. ? 

Just don't take it personally. I just saw a perfect opportunity and took it. ?

 

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 minute ago, oilinki said:

Just don't take it personally. I just saw a perfect opportunity and took it. ?

 

 

No, not taken personally at all. It wasn't a personal attack, after all.

 

I just didn't find it very funny. ? 

[Jip99]

3 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

If you say so mate. ?

 

I can only copy and paste, the rest is up to the network.

 

It seems clear though that your view of Brexit and those who voted for it is as warped and misguided as your view of the future of the EU. ? 

 

 

 

 

I suppose it is too simple to guess the response to the question...

 

”Do you think that the EU will fare better without the UK being a member”.

 

 

I am guessing that the “No” vote would be over 52%.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Macron is a smart enough fella, he speaks good English yes. But you might expect someone in his position and of his less advanced age, to speak English fairly well.

 

The French, for all their admirable qualities in certain other areas, are not renowned for their love of either the English or our English language. For different reasons that vary from person to person, I suspect. They have laws (see Toubon law - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toubon_Law) within France that actually mandate the use of French only and are seen as a blockade against English. The radio in France is another good example, that might be covered by the Toubon law, but I'm not sure, again it's mandated that a certain percentage of French radio stations only broadcast in French and play French music after a certain time of day. I know from experience (albeit minimal) and much anecdotal evidence from friends, family and acquaintances that they can be a bit prickly towards foreign language speakers and English speakers in particular, possibly due to the global hegemony of the English language? You might be right in that this is a somewhat outdated view and that younger French people are happy to converse in English when necessary. Possibly, but I can't confirm it.

 

I think the French are equally proud (and stubborn) of their heritage as the Brits are. This creates love/hate relation between these two nations. That's an outsiders view, which might be wrong as well.

 

French are proud of the Lingua Franca and how French used to be the language of diplomat community. Now even they know that they have lost the language war to English. 

 

That Toubon law is generation old already. It probably would not be made today, but it's also difficult to admit that it's actually rather outdated. Stubborn folks in France.

[sandyf]

24 minutes ago, aright said:

Clueless! The decision, as it has always been, is made on affordability and the cost to benefit ratio not on your demonstrated fear of everything. In my local C of C  no one is expressing your concerns, thank goodness.  Can you point to the business communities world wide who will stop dealing with the EU because of these costs and can you point out why a Union which depends heavily on exports would want to make access to their market so costly and difficult their suppliers would be forced to play quid pro quo?    

Wrong again. It is not a question of decision, manufacturers will be forced into significant expense to maintain the same certification that has already been paid for. Those that do not require certification are oblivious to the problem and dismiss it as irrelevant. Many smaller companies are living in the hope that the government will pull the rabbit and the UK notified bodies get a reprieve.

In the absence of a rabbit many may see the expense as a step too far, discontinue exporting and downsize the operation. You and the other brexiteers can then explain to those heading for the dole office how project fear became reality.

 

"Can you point to the business communities world wide who will stop dealing with the EU because of these costs"

You obviously fail to comprehend the whole concept of CE marking. The costs to business communities world wide are not going to change only for the UK. The EU is going to benefit a great deal from Non EU countries having their product tested and certified within the EU rather than in the UK. The UK's historical reputation gave a certain amount of prestige to a CE mark issued in the UK, that has now been shot to pieces.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

14 minutes ago, oilinki said:

I think the French are equally proud (and stubborn) of their heritage as the Brits are. This creates love/hate relation between these two nations. That's an outsiders view, which might be wrong as well.

 

French are proud of the Lingua Franca and how French used to be the language of diplomat community. Now even they know that they have lost the language war to English. 

 

That Toubon law is generation old already. It probably would not be made today, but it's also difficult to admit that it's actually rather outdated. Stubborn folks in France.

Sure, I agree with the majority of this, they're very stubborn as can the English be and we have 'history' together lets say. As far as I know the Toubon law is still in place, but experiencing more pushback. They remain a proud people.

 

I have to be honest and say that I don't know what the average attitude of a younger Frenchman or woman would be, having not been to France for a long time nor met enough Frenchies out here in Asia or back in UK to gauge well.

 

The few I have met usually have something of a chip on one shoulder (and a belt of onions over the other ? ). French was never a global or continental 'lingua franca' though to be fair, formerly the diplomatic lingua franca and language of the olympics though, yes. English unquestionably being the lingua franca of the world is undoubtedly what has annoyed the French, in that they've had to confront the fact that they lost both global imperial, military and trade hegemony along with linguistic hegemony too. Still there are some downsides (admittedly few) to being a native English speaker, especially if you aren't fluent in another language.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CG1 Blue]

5 hours ago, oilinki said:

I personally want EU to become United States of Europe. One country with multiple states.  Common border, military, general services, with states being able to have partial autonomy. It would strengthen EU's place in the world and we wouldn't have to waste money on each states own defence etc. Instead we could put the money on better use in education, healthcare, infrastructure and other general projects. Now that UK is leaving EU, new changes might be possible to plan and execute. 

 

My country leaders are listening to the people. They have to, or else they'll see a shorter career in politics. Today we can even communicate (two way) with some of the ministers on twitter ?

My country's benefit is that we have real multiparty parliament. No party can behave in ugly bipartisan way, as they know, the next election cycle, they might have to work together. 

 

EU also listens to the people. EU is a larger entity, but it's principles changes in time. Social immigration is often complained about EU. Well, now EU has getting a lot tougher to the social immigration. That's a step forward. This also reduces power from the extremist political groups. 

 

Anyway. I'm happy we have EU and I will support it as long as EU supports my freedoms and values.

 

I can understand why you would be in favour of a United States of Europe, being from Finland.  I can also understand the same with our Belgian friend on this forum. With respect, people from smaller less prominent countries are more likely to favour joining together, and being looked after by those running the EU.

 

Most Brits have a different mentality.  And I can confidently say that if your sentiments here were conveyed to the British people prior to the referendum, the Leave vote would have been considerably higher. Perhaps this is why the EU were virtually silent during the referendum campaign.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I can understand why you would be in favour of a United States of Europe, being from Finland.  I can also understand the same with our Belgian friend on this forum. With respect, people from smaller less prominent countries are more likely to favour joining together, and being looked after by those running the EU.

 

Most Brits have a different mentality.  And I can confidently say that if your sentiments here were conveyed to the British people prior to the referendum, the Leave vote would have been considerably higher. Perhaps this is why the EU were virtually silent during the referendum campaign.

Not being looked after, but being part of the larger union. UK is made of 4 different states, with England being the largest power. I'm sure Scotch etc would not be happy to be called as mia nois of England ? In the smaller countries we might not have so much international power by ourselves, but as individuals we are as proud and strong people as in the larger countries. 

 

In today's world, where power is concentrated to different poles around the world, we smaller players need to find our own groups to belong to. Fennoscandia has it's own 'block' with only 25 million people. That's not enough. EU is large enough to combat the forces of China, USA and later on the rest of the Asia and furthermore Africa. 

 

The referendum was UK's internal issue. Quite like Scotland's independence vote or what happened in Barcelona. I think that was the reason EU didn't interfere what happened in UK prior the referendum. 

 

Anyway it's interesting to learn how people in different parts of the world are thinking about themselves and the people around them. That's the best part of these discussions for me. 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Guest

[Jip99]

5 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Not being looked after, but being part of the larger union. UK is made of 4 different states, with England being the largest power. I'm sure Scotch etc would not be happy to be called as mia nois of England ? 

I think that they would prefer being called mia nois rather than “Scotch” ?.

 

 

(Jack Charlton could never get that one right).

[aright]

52 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Wrong again. It is not a question of decision, manufacturers will be forced into significant expense to maintain the same certification that has already been paid for. Those that do not require certification are oblivious to the problem and dismiss it as irrelevant. Many smaller companies are living in the hope that the government will pull the rabbit and the UK notified bodies get a reprieve.

In the absence of a rabbit many may see the expense as a step too far, discontinue exporting and downsize the operation. You and the other brexiteers can then explain to those heading for the dole office how project fear became reality.

 

"Can you point to the business communities world wide who will stop dealing with the EU because of these costs"

You obviously fail to comprehend the whole concept of CE marking. The costs to business communities world wide are not going to change only for the UK. The EU is going to benefit a great deal from Non EU countries having their product tested and certified within the EU rather than in the UK. The UK's historical reputation gave a certain amount of prestige to a CE mark issued in the UK, that has now been shot to pieces.

More of your misguided commercial.nonsense.

Of course it's a question of decision! Mine! I own the business . If I decide to proceed with certification its down to me, nothing to do with you or the EU, and as I said my decision will be based on affordability and cost benefit and I should add sometimes for personal non commercial reasons.

Why would my employees or myself be headed for the dole office you couldn't possibly know what decision I would make confronted with to certify or not to certify and why would I want to destroy my own business , most of my widgets don't require certification . As for significant expense, before I developed my businesses into  profitable propositions  I had an idea for a product which required finance, research and accreditation which I could ill afford so I sold a part of the idea to a company who could afford it. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

  You and the other brexiteers can then explain to those heading for the dole office how project fear became reality.

You have now upped "Project Fear" to "King Size Project Fear"

 

"Can you point to the business communities world wide who will stop dealing with the EU because of these costs"

 

As requested Specific Countries and Businesses who claim they will no longer trade with the EU because of onerous certification costs please with links? If you can't address the answer head on don't bother replying we recognize your nannie and your project. 

 

 

[BwindiBoy]

3 hours ago, oilinki said:

Just don't take it personally. I just saw a perfect opportunity and took it. ?

 

 

Now that IS Brexit! ? 

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, oilinki said:

Everything can be done without the EU. But if EU helps to make things easier, I'll take it. I'm so lazy and I absolutely hate all paperwork and bureaucracy , that I prefer an easy solution if that's available. With EU it's all in one package. 

 

Philosophically I prefere world without locks and keys while I know it's not possible in reality.

But da EU just love bureaucracy innit?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

But da EU just love bureaucracy innit?

EU loves to do specs, but one of it's benefits is that it should reduce the paperwork from us ordinary folks. 

 

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Yes, you're right, that was written by oilinki. Technical glitch in the TVF matrix? 

Probably due to Brexit. ?

[melvinmelvin]

7 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Macron is a smart enough fella, he speaks good English yes. But you might expect someone in his position and of his less advanced age, to speak English fairly well.

 

The French, for all their admirable qualities in certain other areas, are not renowned for their love of either the English or our English language. For different reasons that vary from person to person, I suspect. They have laws (see Toubon law - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toubon_Law) within France that actually mandate the use of French only and are seen as a blockade against English. The radio in France is another good example, that might be covered by the Toubon law, but I'm not sure, again it's mandated that a certain percentage of French radio stations only broadcast in French and play French music after a certain time of day. I know from experience (albeit minimal) and much anecdotal evidence from friends, family and acquaintances that they can be a bit prickly towards foreign language speakers and English speakers in particular, possibly due to the global hegemony of the English language? You might be right in that this is a somewhat outdated view and that younger French people are happy to converse in English when necessary. Possibly, but I can't confirm it.

 

 

France is deadly serious about keeping Francophonie alive and kicking, easy to understand.

 

[tebee]

So why do us remainers not trust brexiers .

 

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-trade-britain/liam-fox-planning-to-scrap-eu-food-standards-business-insider-idUKKCN1M0128

 

https://www.businessinsider.nl/liam-fox-trade-deal-scrap-european-union-food-standards-after-brexit-2018-9/?international=true&r=US

 

 

 

[tomacht8]

44 minutes ago, tebee said:

So why do us remainers not trust brexiers .

 

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-trade-britain/liam-fox-planning-to-scrap-eu-food-standards-business-insider-idUKKCN1M0128

 

https://www.businessinsider.nl/liam-fox-trade-deal-scrap-european-union-food-standards-after-brexit-2018-9/?international=true&r=US

 

 

 

What a coincidence.
Just yesterday we discussed this scenario here. Hopefully the US chlor chicken will not be introduced with a new label, as a uk quality chicken and will so exported into the EU.
The same applies to US hormone beef and pork as well as genetically modified cereals and vegetables.

For this reason safe EU borders and strict border controls are necessary.

Nobody wants to eat this shit here.

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by tomacht8

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, aright said:

More of your misguided commercial.nonsense.

Of course it's a question of decision! Mine! I own the business . If I decide to proceed with certification its down to me, nothing to do with you or the EU, and as I said my decision will be based on affordability and cost benefit and I should add sometimes for personal non commercial reasons.

Why would my employees or myself be headed for the dole office you couldn't possibly know what decision I would make confronted with to certify or not to certify and why would I want to destroy my own business , most of my widgets don't require certification . As for significant expense, before I developed my businesses into  profitable propositions  I had an idea for a product which required finance, research and accreditation which I could ill afford so I sold a part of the idea to a company who could afford it. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

  You and the other brexiteers can then explain to those heading for the dole office how project fear became reality.

You have now upped "Project Fear" to "King Size Project Fear"

 

"Can you point to the business communities world wide who will stop dealing with the EU because of these costs"

 

As requested Specific Countries and Businesses who claim they will no longer trade with the EU because of onerous certification costs please with links? If you can't address the answer head on don't bother replying we recognize your nannie and your project. 

 

 

So in your business mind removing tarrif free access to the UKs largest trading partner is not goin to cost jobs?

[CG1 Blue]

13 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

What a coincidence.
Just yesterday we discussed this scenario here. Hopefully the US chlor chicken will not be introduced with a new label, as a uk quality chicken and will so exported into the EU.
The same applies to US hormone beef and pork as well as genetically modified cereals and vegetables.

For this reason safe EU borders and strict border controls are necessary.

Nobody wants to eat this shit here.

 

If chlorinated chickens from the US started appearing in UK supermarkets, they will be clearly labeled as such, and the customer will have a choice. I suspect not many would be sold.

And If you honestly think the UK will import chickens from the US, re-label them as UK chickens, then sell them on to the EU, I think you have a distorted view of UK food and trading standards.

[tomacht8]

12 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

If chlorinated chickens from the US started appearing in UK supermarkets, they will be clearly labeled as such, and the customer will have a choice. I suspect not many would be sold.

And If you honestly think the UK will import chickens from the US, re-label them as UK chickens, then sell them on to the EU, I think you have a distorted view of UK food and trading standards.

U said UK.

I think more of criminals who then buy cheap chlorine chicken, then label them in the garage new, and try to sell them with much profit as quality produkts.

[Chomper Higgot]

10 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

If chlorinated chickens from the US started appearing in UK supermarkets, they will be clearly labeled as such, and the customer will have a choice. I suspect not many would be sold.

And If you honestly think the UK will import chickens from the US, re-label them as UK chickens, then sell them on to the EU, I think you have a distorted view of UK food and trading standards.

Not so fast with your assurances.

 

One of the big battles with the US during the now ‘on hold’ TTIP was on the matter of food labelling.

 

The US vehemently arguing against EU requirements on food standards, food safety, food content labelling and the identification/labelling of food origin(s).

 

You May wish to believe that the UK will be able to dictate standards to the US in a post Brexit UK/US trade deal but you would have to completely disregard the imbalance of power between the US and UK and especially the very weak position of a UK desperate for a deal.

 

The UK will lose control over food standards in any UK/US post Brexit trade agreement.

 

The British will eat whatever the Americans tell them to eat.

 

How’s that for sovereignty?!

 

 

https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2016/05/06/TTIP-leaks-Five-points-of-interest-for-the-food-industry

[nauseus]

48 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Not so fast with your assurances.

 

One of the big battles with the US during the now ‘on hold’ TTIP was on the matter of food labelling.

 

The US vehemently arguing against EU requirements on food standards, food safety, food content labelling and the identification/labelling of food origin(s).

 

You May wish to believe that the UK will be able to dictate standards to the US in a post Brexit UK/US trade deal but you would have to completely disregard the imbalance of power between the US and UK and especially the very weak position of a UK desperate for a deal.

 

The UK will lose control over food standards in any UK/US post Brexit trade agreement.

 

The British will eat whatever the Americans tell them to eat.

 

How’s that for sovereignty?!

 

 

https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2016/05/06/TTIP-leaks-Five-points-of-interest-for-the-food-industry

How's that for drivel of the day?