UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[BwindiBoy]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

It's a good job (for the Tories) that Labour went first or the Tories wouldn't have had any ideas at all.  Oh, there was the obligatory mention of tax cuts, and a vague promise of new housing.  I'm sure the tax cuts will materialise- for the already wealthy anyway!

 

We have even less clarity on Brexit than before, which is rather remarkable really.

 

"Dancing Queen'- 'Waterloo' more like.

 

She hasn't got a clue.  Embarrassing really.

[kwilco]

15 hours ago, aright said:

One of my requirements when I look for intercommunication with a person who is making a pitch to me is a form of intelligent critical thinking based on more than conjecture, guesstimate and insults. You fail miserably in this regard.

The more you post, the more I'm convinced you don't actually know what critical thinking is

[kwilco]

It ain't rocket science....in the event of a hard Brexit ALL of IT's motor industry will reconsider their situation or just leave.

BMW is the latest and the Japanese industries no longer view UK as their gateway to Europe..... What the hell Sunderland thought would happen to Nissan is Amy's guess.

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/paris-motor-show-no-deal-brexit-and-we-ll-have-to-leave-warns-bmw-9jf7sr5sr

 

 

[kwilco]

How is losing this good?

 

[melvinmelvin]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Not at all. It has nothing to do with that at all.

 

If you earn in your pensions more that the UK tax allowance then you pay income tax on the balance.

 

At the current rate of income tax in the I am in fact subsidising my state pension by some 20%.

 

For this magnanimous gesture on my part, and because I live in Thailand the generous UK government has actually FROZEN my pension at the rate that I EARNED it since 2009.

 

 I truly believe that gives me the right to vote in any election or referendum in the UK for life as I started paying income tax in 1959 and will continue to do so until I die.

 

yes, I am aware of that tax/freezing arrangement

but, how come you retain voting rights whilst others lose rights?

[BwindiBoy]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

The more you post, the more I'm convinced you don't actually know what critical thinking is

 

Says the man.

[tebee]

2 hours ago, BwindiBoy said:

 

She hasn't got a clue.  Embarrassing really.

This is the problem with Brexit - no one has a clue how to do it 

 

[kwilco]

4 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

yes, I am aware of that tax/freezing arrangement

but, how come you retain voting rights whilst others lose rights?

You realise that being a tax payer or property owner as an entitlement to enfranchisement was discarded in the 19th century. It may come as a further shock to you to realise that women too now have the vote....... It's all part of growing up and being democratic.

Edited October 4, 2018 by kwilco

[kwilco]

8 hours ago, mommysboy said:

It's a good job (for the Tories) that Labour went first or the Tories wouldn't have had any ideas at all.  Oh, there was the obligatory mention of tax cuts, and a vague promise of new housing.  I'm sure the tax cuts will materialise- for the already wealthy anyway!

 

We have even less clarity on Brexit than before, which is rather remarkable really.

 

"Dancing Queen'- 'Waterloo' more like.

Illustrates the problems she has with freedom of movement.....

[My Thai Life]

10 hours ago, mommysboy said:

We have even less clarity on Brexit than before, which is rather remarkable really.

 

But were you really expecting clarity, when the Tories are so split on this? We are in basically the same position as before:

 

> May wanting some form of Customs Union to preserve frictionless trade with the EU and avoid the "rules of origin" issue which has surfaced here in the last day or two, something which the remainers presumably support;

 

> Johnson, Rees-Mogg and co who want the UK to have the freedom to make Free Trade Deals.

 

I can see the benefits of both of these viewpoints.

 

And let's face it, Corbyn has no policy on this at all: his views as ever are oppositional - he has spent his life opposing his own party, it's the only game he knows - mixed with uncosted populist "promises".

 

Corbyn is a natural Leaver, May is a natural Remainer - bizarre that they have the positions they have!

 

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by My Thai Life

[tebee]

4 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

But were you really expecting clarity, when the Tories are so split on this? We are in basically the same position as before:

 

> May wanting some form of Customs Union to preserve frictionless trade with the EU and avoid the "rules of origin" which has surfaced here in the last day or two, something which the remainers presumably support;

 

> Johnson, Rees-Mogg and co who want the UK to have the freedom to make Free Trade Deals.

 

I can see the benefits of both of these viewpoints.

 

And let's face it, Corbyn has no policy on this at all: his views as ever are oppositional - he has spent his life opposing his own party, it's the only game he knows - mixed with uncosted populist "promises".

 

Corbyn is a natural Leaver, May is a natural Remainer - bizarre that they have the positions they have!

 

 

But the gov policy is still cake and eat it.

 

Faisal Islam reported last night 
‏
"PM is now defining her Brexit plan as an unwavering commitment to maintain frictionless trade with EU - at same time as an unwavering commitment to leaving free movement, and being able to sign trade deals with other countries, and not leaving Northern Ireland in Customs Union"

 

These don't seem to be compatible goals - we have not found a way to reconcile them in the last 2 years, how are we going to find one in the next few weeks?

 

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

16 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

You’re wrong. When you’re accusing someone of something, you have to prove it, not the other way round. 

 

Yes, I’m unable to prove your accusation that the EU is discriminating people when it comes to visa. I think it’s nonsense.  

 

- My ex, when I was working in Germany, used to visit me plenty times. Never had a problem getting a visa.

- Also, when I was working in Germany, I met a guy in the office who turned out to be Thai. He studied his masters in Germany and then joined the German office of our company. 

- Plenty of work colleagues and friends visit and have been visiting Europe plenty of times, for vacation as well as for business trips. Never had a problem getting a visa either. One group just returned from a two weeks trip; another group is about to go soon. One ex of mine just returned from traveling in Europe. She used to have a German boyfriend after me who she visited plenty of times as well. 

- A friend of mine met his now-wife at university in Germany. She was studying her masters there. 

- I used to hangout with an au pair girl in Germany as well. Pretty sure she had a valid work visa. Met her again in Bangkok where she’s preparing for her bachelor which she wants to study in Germany. 

- Met another Thai girl (who was dating a friend of mine working in Bangkok that time) in Berlin who was there for some sort of management seminar for a month. 

 

Is that enough?

 

 

 

 

'Yes I'm unable to prove your accusation that the EU is discriminating people when it comes to visa. I think it's nonsense.'

 

Right, just as I thought. Although this isn't quite what I said, it's close enough. And you're unable to prove anything because what I have said is simply THE TRUTH, admitted by Europhile Diane Abbott in the article I provided as one small piece of evidence.

If you did any kind of research into the subject whatsoever and removed yourself from your echo chamber, that you and others like you exist in, you'd see that my 'accusations' are consistent with

the truth. I notice you didn't contest (or probably even read) the information in the article I attached either. This is the problem with arguing with people such as yourself. The truth could smack you in the chops and you would still deny its existence.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/13/diane-abbott-to-announce-labour-plans-to-overhaul-visa-policy

 

- And this is coming from a Guardianista too! The reporter is, however, quoting D.Abbott, whilst neither source is particularly reliable or intelligent I'll concede, the key information being discussed is correct and is emanating from shadow Home Secretary briefings to the press about Labours planned changes to 'immigration policy' should they win a GE.

 

So, what you have engaged in again with the fresh drivel you've written above is simply distraction/misdirection to attempt to prove a point you know you can't.

 

When did I EVER at any point say anything about a bloody Schengen visa!?!? I couldn't care less about it, I was discussing the facts around the UK government issuing UK visas, and how they're biased towards EU citizens - giving them opportunities to study and work over non EU citizens. All 100% true. So if you think spouting some irrelevant rubbish about 5 or 6 individual cases of people that lived, traveled and worked in the Schengen area of Europe, has any bearing on what I have attested, well, you're even less equipped to make an argument than I previously thought. Perhaps you should work for one of the political parties, you seem to be rather adept at 'spin' and promoting BS.

 

Now, have a read of the article and then come back to me to admit that what I've said is correct. Take your time now. ???? 

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[My Thai Life]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

hese don't seem to be compatible goals - we have not found a way to reconcile them in the last 2 years, how are we going to find one in the next few weeks?

I agree of course, they don't seem to be compatible goals, but at least she tried to do something for the Remain position. The clearest alternative is a Free Trade Deal, as suggested by Rees-Mogg & Johnson & co, and Barnier & Tusk. The Irish border issue is fixable. But I'm not going to have time for any more replies today, sorry. 

 

However, as for "cake and eat it", see my my quote yesterday from Norbert Röttgen, Germany’ s de facto leader in the EU. The EU will eat any kind of cake at all when the Germans are baking:

 

 

“In one of the first signs that Germany may be willing to take up at least part of Theresa May’s Chequers proposals, Röttgen said the EU should be prepared to give the UK access to the single market in relation to goods, but not services, in return for the UK accepting EU rules and the customs union for goods...The EU is wrong to claim there can be no division between goods and services to maintain the integrity of the internal market. It is a position on which the EU has to change to find compromise. Britain, in order to resolve the border question, has to accept a frictionless regime of free movement of goods but without having any say on how the rules apply to Britain".

 

If the Remainers here were serious about their concerns, they'd spend more time trying to be persuasive and less time insulting other posters.

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

23 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

But were you really expecting clarity, when the Tories are so split on this? We are in basically the same position as before:

 

> May wanting some form of Customs Union to preserve frictionless trade with the EU and avoid the "rules of origin" issue which has surfaced here in the last day or two, something which the remainers presumably support;

 

> Johnson, Rees-Mogg and co who want the UK to have the freedom to make Free Trade Deals.

 

I can see the benefits of both of these viewpoints.

 

And let's face it, Corbyn has no policy on this at all: his views as ever are oppositional - he has spent his life opposing his own party, it's the only game he knows - mixed with uncosted populist "promises".

 

Corbyn is a natural Leaver, May is a natural Remainer - bizarre that they have the positions they have!

 

 

 

re Corbyn and no policy,

didn't he say that he would support a 2nd ref if that became an issue in parliament ?

[tebee]

58 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

I agree of course, they don't seem to be compatible goals, but at least she tried to do something for the Remain position. The clearest alternative is a Free Trade Deal, as suggested by Rees-Mogg & Johnson & co, and Barnier & Tusk. The Irish border issue is fixable. But I'm not going to have time for any more replies today, sorry. 

 

However, as for "cake and eat it", see my my quote yesterday from Norbert Röttgen, Germany’ s de facto leader in the EU. The EU will eat any kind of cake at all when the Germans are baking:

 

 

“In one of the first signs that Germany may be willing to take up at least part of Theresa May’s Chequers proposals, Röttgen said the EU should be prepared to give the UK access to the single market in relation to goods, but not services, in return for the UK accepting EU rules and the customs union for goods...The EU is wrong to claim there can be no division between goods and services to maintain the integrity of the internal market. It is a position on which the EU has to change to find compromise. Britain, in order to resolve the border question, has to accept a frictionless regime of free movement of goods but without having any say on how the rules apply to Britain".

 

If the Remainers here were serious about their concerns, they'd spend more time trying to be persuasive and less time insulting other posters.

 

 

But the price for free goods movement as he is suggesting seems to be more than she is willing to pay.

 

 Röttgen said the EU should be prepared to give the UK access to the single market in relation to goods, but not services, in return for the UK accepting EU rules and the customs union for goods...

 

PM is now defining her Brexit plan... being able to sign trade deals with other countries, and not leaving Northern Ireland in Customs Union"

[My Thai Life]

18 minutes ago, tebee said:

But the price for free goods movement as he is suggesting seems to be more than she is willing to pay.

Tebee, it's a negotiation.

It's a step towards a possible solution; it is not the end-solution.

 

My initial post was to counter the remain cliche reiterated on this thread countless times that the EU doesn't negotiate. Barnier and the other bureaucrats don't negotiate, they don't have the authority to do so. The Germans are the cake-bakers.

Edited October 4, 2018 by My Thai Life

[billd766]

8 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

yes, I am aware of that tax/freezing arrangement

but, how come you retain voting rights whilst others lose rights?

 

Because at this time I am still within the 15 year limit which was supposed to be scrapped by the government. They have not yet done so.

[dick dasterdly]

13 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Not at all. It has nothing to do with that at all.

 

If you earn in your pensions more that the UK tax allowance then you pay income tax on the balance.

 

At the current rate of income tax in the I am in fact subsidising my state pension by some 20%.

 

For this magnanimous gesture on my part, and because I live in Thailand the generous UK government has actually FROZEN my pension at the rate that I EARNED it since 2009.

 

 I truly believe that gives me the right to vote in any election or referendum in the UK for life as I started paying income tax in 1959 and will continue to do so until I die.

I previously thought that it was reasonable for us 'expats' to lose our votes once we left the uk, but as a result of your post (and another poster who mentioned 'no taxation without representation') - my opinion has changed.

[tebee]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Tebee, it's a negotiation.

It's a step towards a possible solution; it is not the end-solution.

 

My initial post was to counter the remain cliche reiterated on this thread countless times that the EU doesn't negotiate. Barnier and the other bureaucrats don't negotiate, they don't have the authority to do so. The Germans are the cake-bakers.

 

They can negotiate, but only within the parameters given to them by the European parliament.  Hence they suggested Canada + as meeting May's red lines.

 

Our side's not exactly good at negotiating either is it - 18 months to come up with a plan that half her own party's rejection. 

 

Someone far cleverer than I likened invoking art 50 without a plan to jumping out of a plane whille intending to design a parachute on the way down. 

 

[mommysboy]

Brexit in whatever form it takes is of course rather salient at the moment, but the over-riding concern for me is the Government: more precisely that it is incompetent in most respects.

 

I wonder too whether their plan for more housing, scant and vague admittedly, will attract the same fierce criticism of impracticality as if Labour had suggested it?  When Labour announces a new plan for investment, the media pounces with calculators in hand.

 

Austerity is far from over.  Local authorities will have their budgets slashed next year.  Cuts in benefits will continue.

 

 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

Because at this time I am still within the 15 year limit which was supposed to be scrapped by the government. They have not yet done so.

right, ta

I do find it weird though that citizens lose their voting rights

 

[tebee]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Tebee, it's a negotiation.

It's a step towards a possible solution; it is not the end-solution.

 

My initial post was to counter the remain cliche reiterated on this thread countless times that the EU doesn't negotiate. Barnier and the other bureaucrats don't negotiate, they don't have the authority to do so. The Germans are the cake-bakers.

 

 

You could be right, in spite of what she said yesterday at the conference, The FT is reporting today that she is suggesting the whole of the UK stays in the CU.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/a4770b92-c721-11e8-ba8f-ee390057b8c9

[dick dasterdly]

5 hours ago, kwilco said:

You realise that being a tax payer or property owner as an entitlement to enfranchisement was discarded in the 19th century. It may come as a further shock to you to realise that women too now have the vote....... It's all part of growing up and being democratic.

I must be missing something here?

 

So you think there's nothing wrong with individual, british citizen tax payers losing their vote - even though they're still paying tax on their income?

 

Trying to shift the subject to the way things worked in the 19th century/women's right to vote, is far from a good counter-argument.....

 

I'd suggest that you stop digging your hole, and try a new approach.  i.e. 'arguing' in a sensible fashion.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Brexit in whatever form it takes is of course rather salient at the moment, but the over-riding concern for me is the Government: more precisely that it is incompetent in most respects.

 

I wonder too whether their plan for more housing, scant and vague admittedly, will attract the same fierce criticism of impracticality as if Labour had suggested it?  When Labour announces a new plan for investment, the media pounces with calculators in hand.

 

Austerity is far from over.  Local authorities will have their budgets slashed next year.  Cuts in benefits will continue.

 

 

Certainly this morning's headlines seem to suggest that, with the exception of the Mirror, the Fourth Estate continues to follow instructions.

[dick dasterdly]

5 hours ago, kwilco said:

Illustrates the problems she has with freedom of movement.....

I'm not at all sure that May has a problem with 'freedom of movement' - but I'm pretty sure that a large percentage of leave voters do have a problem with this 'eu pillar' of the SM.

 

Edit - And May is sensible enough to realise this.

Edited October 4, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[mommysboy]

27 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I previously thought that it was reasonable for us 'expats' to lose our votes once we left the uk, but as a result of your post (and another poster who mentioned 'no taxation without representation') - my opinion has changed.

 

For me it's altogether much simpler: if you are British you get to vote.

 

I decry the notion that benefits should in some way be PAYE when it comes to ordinary rights and access to services, unless means tested of course .  Take the NHS for example, people pay inordinately high tax and use the service far less during the prime years of life.  That, it seems, counts for nothing later in life.  I don't think that's right.

 

I'm not completely sure, however, one is born British and remains so for the rest of life, come what may.  That being the case, one simply can't apply one set of rights to one group, and not to the rest.

Edited October 4, 2018 by mommysboy

[billd766]

19 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

right, ta

I do find it weird though that citizens lose their voting rights

 

 

While we lose the right to vote after 15 years the government retains the right to tax us until death.

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Tebee, it's a negotiation.

It's a step towards a possible solution; it is not the end-solution.

 

My initial post was to counter the remain cliche reiterated on this thread countless times that the EU doesn't negotiate. Barnier and the other bureaucrats don't negotiate, they don't have the authority to do so. The Germans are the cake-bakers.

 

I think that comment deserves the price as this week's most stupid comment.

If that is how UK understand EU, just cut the moorings and let the foggy islands

drift into the Atlantic and eventually sink.

There is no place in Europe for such lack of understanding.

 

no authority to negotiate? germans make cakes?

bah!

 

[tebee]

Another prediction 

   

     So, either in January, or within weeks of no-deal causing havoc from March 29 2019, they would probably send whoever is prime minister back to Brussels to “renegotiate” — a euphemism for accepting any deal the EU is willing to offer, in short, no-deal should lead to a rapid deal.

 

...

 

    Most European decision makers want Britain out, but they don’t want it going rogue under no-deal, their nightmare is a post-Brexit Britain undermining the EU as a low-regulation haven for sweatshops, opaque derivatives and chlorinated chickens. Since the UK has no plan for Brexit, the EU could end up imposing its plan: a soft Brexit or Brino, in which Britain becomes a poorer Norway, accepting all European rules including freedom of movement so as to keep trade and travel flowing.
 

From :-

https://www.ft.com/content/dc36f2f2-c697-11e8-ba8f-ee390057b8c9

Edited October 4, 2018 by tebee

[dick dasterdly]

13 minutes ago, tebee said:

Another prediction 

   

     So, either in January, or within weeks of no-deal causing havoc from March 29 2019, they would probably send whoever is prime minister back to Brussels to “renegotiate” — a euphemism for accepting any deal the EU is willing to offer, in short, no-deal should lead to a rapid deal.

 

...

 

    Most European decision makers want Britain out, but they don’t want it going rogue under no-deal, their nightmare is a post-Brexit Britain undermining the EU as a low-regulation haven for sweatshops, opaque derivatives and chlorinated chickens. Since the UK has no plan for Brexit, the EU could end up imposing its plan: a soft Brexit or Brino, in which Britain becomes a poorer Norway, accepting all European rules including freedom of movement so as to keep trade and travel flowing.
 

From :-

https://www.ft.com/content/dc36f2f2-c697-11e8-ba8f-ee390057b8c9

It will be interesting to see how uk voters react - if the FT's prediction proves to be correct.

 

But of course, the ft has no idea about the ordinary voters that voted brexit - and assumes they would be entirely happy with this scenario/accept it, and keep voting the tories into power ????.

 

Not even remainers would be happy if their predicted scenario was enacted by the tories!  And the ft will be even more unhappy at the next GE when (as a result of their predicted scenario) the Labour party is voted into power!