UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[whatsupdoc]

1 minute ago, transam said:

What country are you from..?

An EU country that greatly benefits from the EU, the Euro and Schengen.

[aright]

4 minutes ago, candide said:

Why should being in the EU be an indicator of weak national identity?

And this is even more irrelevant for countries such as Finland, Estonia, Poland, etc... Their national identity surely blossoms better inside the EU than under Russian influence.

I would have thought national identity is more about knowing who you are, not who you belong to.

[Guest]

Just now, whatsupdoc said:

An EU country that greatly benefits from the EU, the Euro and Schengen.

I think you just broke our resident stalker ????

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, candide said:

Why should being in the EU be an indicator of weak national identity?

And this is even more irrelevant for countries such as Finland, Estonia, Poland, etc... Their national identity surely blossoms better inside the EU than under Russian influence.

Some people might associate the EU akin to communism, 'all countries are equal, it's just that some countries are more equal than others.' 

[transam]

1 minute ago, whatsupdoc said:

An EU country that greatly benefits from the EU, the Euro and Schengen.

So you fear to tell or have no respect for the country you were born in...?

[whatsupdoc]

1 minute ago, transam said:

So you fear to tell or have no respect for the country you were born in...?

It is irrelevant. First of all I feel European.

[transam]

1 minute ago, whatsupdoc said:

It is irrelevant. First of all I feel European.

Cop-out....????

[aright]

3 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

It is irrelevant. First of all I feel European.

In what way is feeling European different from the feelings of your formative country. What's the plus plus?

[whatsupdoc]

4 minutes ago, aright said:

In what way is feeling European different from the feelings of your formative country. What's the plus plus?

My country has a rich cultural heritage but Europe as a whole has more.

[transam]

1 minute ago, whatsupdoc said:

My country has a rich cultural heritage but Europe as a whole has more.

Buses...?

[aright]

1 minute ago, whatsupdoc said:

My country has a rich cultural heritage but Europe as a whole has more.

What a strange answer. My country has a rich cultural heritage and I agree so does Europe and how you would gauge one as being better than the other is beyond me . I accept both without taking sides. All you can say about them is they are different. The question remains unanswered please be specific.

As a result of my business I travel throughout Europe and anecdotally can say Germans are Germans, French are French, etc. Being European never sees the light of day. They are all proud of their nationality, distrust each other, in a nice way, and they all blame the Dutch.

[vogie]

7 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

My country has a rich cultural heritage but Europe as a whole has more.

And I'm sure we are all very happy for you, but we all don't see the EU as you do. But more important why do you and your peers feel it is appropiate to deride the UK with your snide remarks just because we have decided to leave, surely you can conduct yourself in a more mature manner.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, Jip99 said:

The UK voted to join the EEC - an economic alliance of similar nations. We never voted to be part of a federal Europe comprising 28 countries.

 

More Brexiteer ignorance.

 

The EU is not a federal state.

 

Some may wish it to become so; but that would require unanimous agreement from all member states.

 

Despite Brexiteer propaganda, all decisions and regulations made by the EU are made by democratic representatives from all member states. Some by the European parliament, other, more important ones by the Council of Ministers. Many such require unanimity.

 

 

 

 

[BwindiBoy]

24 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

My country has a rich cultural heritage but Europe as a whole has more.

 

Translation:  My country has limited resources and Europe subsidises us.

[whatsupdoc]

8 minutes ago, BwindiBoy said:

 

Translation:  My country has limited resources and Europe subsidises us.

You are very wrong but why are some posters here so obsessed with my nationality?? It is not relevant to this Brexit thread. Let's go back on topic.

[candide]

57 minutes ago, aright said:

I would have thought national identity is more about knowing who you are, not who you belong to.

Somehow you are right. For example the Polish identity has been forged also in reaction to the German or Russian occupation.

 

Now if I understand you well, it does not matter for their national identity to be inside or outside the EU. It seems to contradict the Brexiters' assumption that their national identity would be better kept outside the EU. ????

[whatsupdoc]

27 minutes ago, vogie said:

And I'm sure we are all very happy for you, but we all don't see the EU as you do. But more important why do you and your peers feel it is appropiate to deride the UK with your snide remarks just because we have decided to leave, surely you can conduct yourself in a more mature manner.

If you saw the EU as me you obviously wouldn't have voted for Brexit.

And about acting mature; that is what the UK should do. If you want to leave, leave (and accept the consequences). If you want to keep the benefits of the EU and SM, either do not leave at all or accept the rules as set by the EU (which the UK agreed with and even helped making) and be willing to pay for it.

The arrogance and sense of entitlement of the UK is like that of a spoilt child.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

If you saw the EU as me you obviously wouldn't have voted for Brexit.

And about acting mature; that is what the UK should do. If you want to leave, leave (and accept the consequences). If you want to keep the benefits of the EU and SM, either do not leave at all or accept the rules as set by the EU (which the UK agreed with and even helped making) and be willing to pay for it.

The arrogance and sense of entitlement of the UK is like that of a spoilt child.

I suppose many Brexiteers were expecting EU members to come begging UK to stay in the Union. Nobody came and it must hurt the ego quite a lot.

 

[aright]

7 minutes ago, candide said:

Somehow you are right. For example the Polish identity has been forged also in reaction to the German or Russian occupation.

 

Now if I understand you well, it does not matter for their national identity to be inside or outside the EU. It seems to contradict the Brexiters' assumption that their national identity would be better kept outside the EU. ????

It depends what aspects of your national identity you identify with.

If your national identity reflects an elected parliament, the non  introduction of an EU army, a requirement for secure borders, making trade terms globally for mutual benefit, not being responsible for other countries debts making our own laws etc etc we are better off outside the EU and that's what we voted for. 

 

 

 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

If you saw the EU as me you obviously wouldn't have voted for Brexit.

And about acting mature; that is what the UK should do. If you want to leave, leave (and accept the consequences). If you want to keep the benefits of the EU and SM, either do not leave at all or accept the rules as set by the EU (which the UK agreed with and even helped making) and be willing to pay for it.

The arrogance and sense of entitlement of the UK is like that of a spoilt child.

It's obvious we don't agree on the merits of the EU, nor will we ever I would imagine.

Surely I don't have to tell you that the leavers are quite happy to "accept the consequences" we don't want to be leaving the EU with one foot still in the door, so how that would make us arrogant is baffling. It is the remainers who wish to cling on to the EUs apron strings and Mrs May in all honesty is doing her best (whatever that is) to please everyone, and if you try to please everyone you end up pleasing no-one.

So I can assure you the leavers are far from arrogant, a little bored of the snide remarks from our european friends perhaps, and quite surprised they seem to get some sort of enjoyment from doing so.

I have German, Danish and Norwegian friends here and they talk in a most pleasant manner, why they don't on here is puzzling.

I like Europe, I speak enough French and German to 'get by' so I can't see the point of being rude to one another just because we are leaving, our vote, our choice.

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, candide said:

Why should being in the EU be an indicator of weak national identity?

And this is even more irrelevant for countries such as Finland, Estonia, Poland, etc... Their national identity surely blossoms better inside the EU than under Russian influence.

yes, for sure, Finland in EU is a sure sign of a very strong national identity

Finland's path towards EU is quite different from what is normal in Europe, quite different

 

 

[Jip99]

46 minutes ago, oilinki said:

I suppose many Brexiteers were expecting EU members to come begging UK to stay in the Union. Nobody came and it must hurt the ego quite a lot.

 

 

 

NO!..... and NO!

 

Stay away..

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, aright said:

You do talk nonsense "nothing to do with shareholders per se" If true, why did it fail, after individual shareholders and fund shareholders there is only Unilever......did they vote it down?

What part of Business Week's headline don't you understand 

Unilever CEO Misreads his Shareholders, to Their Cost

Instead, Unilever's ethics were crudely utilitarian. Its attitude was that while a minority was being disadvantaged, their sacrifice was worth it for the good of the majority. If a premium was due in theory, it wasn't necessary in practice. That was wrong and tactically flawed.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-10-05/unilever-ceo-misreads-his-shareholders-to-their-cost?srnd=premium-africa

 

Some of those against the move were Swiss Asset Management, Legal and General, Aviva.

The Investment Association which represents hundreds of UK Fund shareholders said it welcomed the decision to scrap the move. Aviva which owns 1.4% of Unilever was against the move as was Legal and General citing "Significant client enquiries" 

 

Unilevers reasons for making a forced move are irrelevant. They don't own the Company , the shareholders do, 

 

Once again you demonstrate how much you enjoy perceived UK problems.

Nothing like using a bit of distorted media hype to try and make a case.

Institutional investors have no interest in a companies activities whatsoever, other than to make money. They couldn't care less if there was any restructuring or not. The problem was dropping the LSE which would make the shares a 'foreign' investment. It was all about money, nothing to do with leaving the UK.

"Shareholder democracy", got to hand it to you, that's a good one.

 

If Unilever dropped out of the FTSE 100, funds that track the UK index, as well as many active funds, would have been forced to sell their Unilever stock. UK shareholders had complained they would have to liquidate without the premium that would normally be generated in a takeover, and with potential tax costs.
https://www.ft.com/content/7c1cabf4-c864-11e8-ba8f-ee390057b8c9

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

More Brexiteer ignorance.

 

The EU is not a federal state.

 

Some may wish it to become so; but that would require unanimous agreement from all member states.

 

Despite Brexiteer propaganda, all decisions and regulations made by the EU are made by democratic representatives from all member states. Some by the European parliament, other, more important ones by the Council of Ministers. Many such require unanimity.

The poster that you are characteristically denigrating compared the EU of today with what the UK originally joined. And he is absolutely right to say that It is more federal now than it was back then. Moreover, the ongoing goal of "ever closer union" will inevitably bring more federation.

 

Will it ever become a USA-style federation? Well not in the foreseeable future. But in my opinion it would be a mistake to see the nature of EU federation in such simplistic 18th century terms. The project for ever closer union is designed to enmesh nations, as stated clearly by Juncker:

 

On the Lisbon treaty: “Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?”

 

On the Euro: "We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.”

 

So, no the EU is not technically a federation, and I don't think anyone on this forum has ever suggested that it is, but it is becoming increasingly federal. Googling this will provide you with a rich array of informed opinion.

[whatsupdoc]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

It's obvious we don't agree on the merits of the EU, nor will we ever I would imagine.

Surely I don't have to tell you that the leavers are quite happy to "accept the consequences" we don't want to be leaving the EU with one foot still in the door, so how that would make us arrogant is baffling. It is the remainers who wish to cling on to the EUs apron strings and Mrs May in all honesty is doing her best (whatever that is) to please everyone, and if you try to please everyone you end up pleasing no-one.

So I can assure you the leavers are far from arrogant, a little bored of the snide remarks from our european friends perhaps, and quite surprised they seem to get some sort of enjoyment from doing so.

I have German, Danish and Norwegian friends here and they talk in a most pleasant manner, why they don't on here is puzzling.

I like Europe, I speak enough French and German to 'get by' so I can't see the point of being rude to one another just because we are leaving, our vote, our choice.

 

You are correct that we will never agree on the merits of the EU.

And as I said numerous times, if the UK wants to leave that is fine with me. But Brexit not only affects the UK. It will give damage to the EU as well (especially Ireland, but also The Netherlands, Belgium and others). I am sure those EU countries can handle that but of course they are not happy with it.

A more pressing matter is the GFA/Irish border. Since the UK voted to leave they should also try to come up with a solution. It seems as if they didn't realize the problem until after the Brexit vote. Some Brexiteers at this forum claimed it was a problem for the EU. If that isn't arrogance than what is?

 

I agree with your statements about Mrs. May pleasing no-one. But that is what the EU has to deal with, not with hard Brexiteers (yet). Trying to change the EU rules because the UK wants to leave but still keep benefits is preposterous. Also the UK has wasted a lot of time in the negotiations only to come up with a plan that almost nobody supports.

 

As a EU citizen my patience with Brexit is wearing thin. It is handled very badly by the UK government and the hard Brexiteers seem to ignore the big problems it creates as well. Obviously true remainers cannot be blamed for this mess because they didn't want it in the first place.

But from the outside it all looks like a gigantic cl*sterf*ck, and yes it would be funny if the consequences weren't that serious. It explains the 'snide' remarks though.

Interesting times ahead. The UK created this mess and they bear responsibility for it. Glad to be an outsider.

[transam]

14 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

You are correct that we will never agree on the merits of the EU.

And as I said numerous times, if the UK wants to leave that is fine with me. But Brexit not only affects the UK. It will give damage to the EU as well (especially Ireland, but also The Netherlands, Belgium and others). I am sure those EU countries can handle that but of course they are not happy with it.

A more pressing matter is the GFA/Irish border. Since the UK voted to leave they should also try to come up with a solution. It seems as if they didn't realize the problem until after the Brexit vote. Some Brexiteers at this forum claimed it was a problem for the EU. If that isn't arrogance than what is?

 

I agree with your statements about Mrs. May pleasing no-one. But that is what the EU has to deal with, not with hard Brexiteers (yet). Trying to change the EU rules because the UK wants to leave but still keep benefits is preposterous. Also the UK has wasted a lot of time in the negotiations only to come up with a plan that almost nobody supports.

 

As a EU citizen my patience with Brexit is wearing thin. It is handled very badly by the UK government and the hard Brexiteers seem to ignore the big problems it creates as well. Obviously true remainers cannot be blamed for this mess because they didn't want it in the first place.

But from the outside it all looks like a gigantic cl*sterf*ck, and yes it would be funny if the consequences weren't that serious. It explains the 'snide' remarks though.

Interesting times ahead. The UK created this mess and they bear responsibility for it. Glad to be an outsider.

What a load of.................

[candide]

1 hour ago, aright said:

It depends what aspects of your national identity you identify with.

If your national identity reflects an elected parliament, the non  introduction of an EU army, a requirement for secure borders, making trade terms globally for mutual benefit, not being responsible for other countries debts making our own laws etc etc we are better off outside the EU and that's what we voted for. 

 

 

 

Well, there's not a wide agreement with your diagnostic on each of these issues.

Personally I feel my national identity is well protected in the EU, in particular from powerfull Russian, American or Chinese interference, or even from German interference. Better than if we had to deal with them directly with them.

The threatening comments made by the Chinese about future post-Brexit deals, after British ships patrolled with the US navy, is quite instructive in this perspective.

[JAG]

1 hour ago, oilinki said:

I suppose many Brexiteers were expecting EU members to come begging UK to stay in the Union. Nobody came and it must hurt the ego quite a lot.

 

Speaking personally, absolutely on the contrary. As a result of the appreciation process which  I went through before deciding how to cast my vote, (I voted to leave) I decided that the medium and long-term interests of the UK would be served by leaving the UK. I voted accordingly and with absolutely no expectation that there would be any special deal for the UK. I also expected that the EU and the UK would sensibly co-operate in the process of arranging the departure, allowing for arrangements to control borders, collect tariffs if necessary, and allow matters such as aviation, supply and accreditation of medicines, and international cooperation on mutually beneficial projects to continue.

 

I concluded that in all probability, whatever the views of the various other member states would be, the EU commission and its other executive branches would be as difficult, truculent and obstructive as possible towards the UK. They would, I surmised, do this for three main reasons. First because the UK's withdrawal would leave a colossal hole in the EU's future budget plans, and the EU depends upon access to liberal and continuing  amounts of cash to maintain its march towards an "ever closer union". Second, the decision of the UK, in particular in the face of their intransigence towards David Camerons insistence on meaningful reforms, was a direct challenge to their authority, and therefore to be rebuffed - if Cameron's mission had resulted in any movement towards reform I was actually prepared to voter (holding my nose) to remain in the EU. Thirdly, I very much expected that the UK would be "made an example" to curb any other nations desire to leave.

A fourth point, which has subsequently occurred to me is a degree of dislike in the UK from amongst those in charge of the negotiations - Messrs Junker and Barnier, although this has I suspect flavoured rather than dictated their approach to the matter. I was also surprised by the EU's enthusiasm for keeping Northern Ireland effectively within their sphere of control - and I doubt whether this has any regard to the views of the majority of people in that unfortunate province! I personally tend to the view that the whole of the Island of Ireland should be one country, but I think that should principally be the decision of the people of Northern Ireland ( in conjunction with The Republic of Ireland) rather than the decision of the EU executive.

 

My ego has not been hurt one iota. I am however saddened that the continent in which I have lived and travelled widely over much of my adult life, and two of whose primary languages I speak, is being driven to harm my country, the UK, especially in view of the UK's significant contribution and commitment to Europe over the last century. And before you question or scoff at that contribution, walk through the cemeteries which are scattered so thickly across Northern France and Belgium. It is not just all about the economics...

[brewsterbudgen]

 
 
Unfortunately, that is your perception.
 
 
The arrogance came from British (and EU) politicians who totally misread the mood of the people.
 
Since then, arrogance has come from those who believe that the will of the people (as democratically evidenced by the referendum result) can be ignored/overturned/changed/disrespected.

So the British people can't change their mind? How very undemocratic.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[My Thai Life]

Juncker is the best secret weapon that the leave campaign has ever had.

 

“Jean-Claude Juncker has insisted that there must be limits to the freedom of the press as he accused British media of trampling over the human rights of politicians.” From Today's Guardian.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/06/juncker-criticises-british-media-and-urges-limits-to-press-freedom