UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[kwilco]

Brexiteers are in reality a minority - we are EU and they are a minority vote within that union.

They should be treated like the Confederate states were in the US - a minority trying to leave the majority.

 

 

 

 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, dunroaming said:

Not sure that was the driving force behind voting Brexit.  I think immigration and getting back so called "sovereignty" were the main motivators.  And yes people were told that the EU would always want to do a trade deal with us because they need us more than we need them.

I am not sure if they need us more than we need them, however it will be interesting to see what happens to EU countries who want to break ranks and trade with the UK after Brexit.

 

What will the EU commission do if they ignore the rules?

[melvinmelvin]

 

Yesterday the Swedish MSM Dagens Nyheter published a video re the possibility of civil war in the UK.

The video was focusing on the need to avoid a hard border in NI in order to keep the troubles away.

 

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, tebee said:

from 2015 https://www.bertelsmann-stiftung.de/fileadmin/files/BSt/Publikationen/GrauePublikationen/Policy-Brief-Brexit-en_NW_05_2015.pdf

 

from 2016 

 

https://adviserbusinessreview.com/rathbones-analyses-5-common-myths-around-brexit/

 

https://www.cidob.org/content/download/64268/1984250/version/22/file/DOCUMENTS CIDOB_07_BREXIT.pdf

 

The style of egg was not widely used before the referendum. That is the point. 

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

not really news MTL Salvini has been on the barricades with those tirades a number of times already.

eu has its challenges, must earn their salaries now

 

Now? Haha!

[nauseus]

24 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

Yesterday the Swedish MSM Dagens Nyheter published a video re the possibility of civil war in the UK.

The video was focusing on the need to avoid a hard border in NI in order to keep the troubles away.

 

People in glass houses.........................

[vogie]

6 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

It is often joked that there is only one thing worse than a smoker... and that's an ex-smoker.  I think this rather applies to ex-Labour voters too.????

 

Vogie, given the vote is done and dusted, what really matters is now. Call it what by whatever name you want, the will of the people is not being respected regarding the nature of the deal. Surely you are not saying the present deal is popular?

 

Why are you so intent on foisting on the people a deal that is not wanted? You really do believe Brexit at any cost don't you?  

 

 

 

 

What is the deal we are getting, nobody knows yet, there is talk that May is working on another one already, whatever the deal we get the Labour party has said they will vote againgst it, as will some tories, surely May cannot hold out for much longer.

The "will of the people" do you mean the will of the remainers who didn't want to leave in the first place. We voted to leave the EU, it's quite simple, you're saying it will be a disaster, how do you know, greater minds than ours don't know, we are doing something nobody has done before, nobody knows how it will pan out.

I am certainly not saying the the deal is popular, so what would your answer be, ignore the democratic vote, leave by name only, still being tied to the EU, that is not what the UK voted for.

And as much as you don't like a tory government, there is no other option, as soon the Labour government gets rid of the extreme left the better, you have said this yourself, Tony Blair (as much as I dislike the man) has said the same.

 

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

What is the deal we are getting, nobody knows yet, there is talk that May is working on another one already, whatever the deal we get the Labour party has said they will vote againgst it, as will some tories, surely May cannot hold out for much longer.

The "will of the people" do you mean the will of the remainers who didn't want to leave in the first place. We voted to leave the EU, it's quite simple, you're saying it will be a disaster, how do you know, greater minds than ours don't know, we are doing something nobody has done before, nobody knows how it will pan out.

I am certainly not saying the the deal is popular, so what would your answer be, ignore the democratic vote, leave by name only, still being tied to the EU, that is not what the UK voted for.

And as much as you don't like a tory government, there is no other option, as soon the Labour government gets rid of the extreme left the better, you have said this yourself, Tony Blair (as much as I dislike the man) has said the same.

 

Theresa E Coyote is working on yet another doomed plan! It won't be popular. 60% plus want a close alliance.

 

It's not just me predicting trouble is it, in fact which respected body isn't?

 

I don't see what would be the great transgression if it was shelved a while: that would be perfectly sensible actually so that a properly thought process can replace this omnishambles. The country faces far greater challenges imo. 

 

I can't see the point of going ahead with a plan that no one really wants. Where's the sense in that?  Theoretical anyway, most likely a deal will be voted down, or Labour will move provided it meets them half way and there is a clause which allows them to change the deal if they get in to power.

 

I think I probably said I didn't think Corbyn is electable because of the real socialism he offers, and because England is basically blue country. That's not to say I think he's not up to the job.  In fact I believe Labour are ideal for the situation.  It's just that as soon as a Tory dangles the carrot of home ownership and a bright future, the big smile. comes back and eyes start boggling.  All sweet FA of course.  But I guess hope is all most people have left.

 

Anyway back to reality: more blue chickens-https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-uk-economy-office-for-budget-responsibility-no-deal-gdp-investment-inflation-a8579306.html

Edited October 11, 2018 by mommysboy

[vinny41]

16 hours ago, kwilco said:

Anyone who thinks a referendum is "democracy" needs to seriously rethink their ideas.

A simple majority vote never is nor was an example of democracy.

Democracy is government of the people y the people for the people - there is no citation of "majority" there.

 

Democratic countries that wish to make major constitutional changes usually require a "supermajority" to make any change

Referendums are the tools of despots and dictators who wish to claim "democratic" credentials for their undemocratic aims.

 

by going down this road the UK government (thanks to Cameron) has de-democratised themselves.

 

What is needed and traditional in the UK for this kind of thing is an election - that's how they have done things for centuries.

 

As I saw before, the majority on the Brexit referendum is a joke.

 

 

Tony Blair didn't have a problem moving forward after the results of the 1997 Wales devolution referendum  with  a tiny   majority vote  of just under 7,000 (0.6%) 

In fact his own words are stated here "I steamrollered devolution for Wales"

Maybe we should re-run the Wales devolution referendum as well as the 1975 Common Market referendum

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-41199659

[vinny41]

10 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Let's consider what we didn't vote for:

 

Nobody voted for:

1. A total omnishambles.

2. To get poorer.

3. To see the Union divided.

 

 

Brexit is not the holy grail.  It is in fact subordinate to the health and wealth of the UK, which is England, Scotland, N.Ireland, and Wales.  Far bigger issues threaten the UK and the world, not the least climate change.

 

Any CEO, any headmaster, any manager of any sort, would have knocked this on the head a long time ago! How can this be contradicted?

 

 

 

 

 

For some areas of the UK they have received little or no EU funding for many years and for many of those people if they are rock bottom its unlikely they will get poorer by leaving the EU,

The EU has already stated  If the UK wants to rejoin or remain in the EU it will not be on the same deal as before

No more rebates, No more opt out and reduced funding in the areas of the UK that voted to Remain, The EU will ensure that the majority of any EU Uk funding distribution will go to the areas of the UK that voted to leave

Perks will stop if UK ends up staying in EU, says Guy Verhofstadt

Britain is free to change its mind and stay in union, but would have to give up rebate, says EU parliament’s Brexit coordinator

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/14/perks-end-uk-eu-guy-verhofstadt

[Jip99]

17 hours ago, kwilco said:

 

 

 

If a horse wins a race by a nose, a short head, a head, a length or a furlong - he still wins.

 

That is the rule.

 

Majority was the rule with Brexit.

 

 

Brexit won.

 

Get over the fact that your horse lost - or change horses and stop whining.

[tebee]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6265569/amp/No-deal-Brexit-cause-worst-economic-crash-45-YEARS.html?

[welovesundaysatspace]

3 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

If a horse wins a race by a nose, a short head, a head, a length or a furlong - he still wins.

Except that democracy is not a horse race, is not about wining and losing, and that such understanding says a lot about you. 

 

And to stick to your poor example: you only won the horse race (leave the EU). By “the rules” (the referendum) that doesn’t entitle you anything more (a say in future relationships). Leave the EU, strike a deal stay in the single market with its four freedoms! 

 

 

 

 

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

If a horse wins a race by a nose, a short head, a head, a length or a furlong - he still wins.

 

That is the rule.

 

Majority was the rule with Brexit.

 

 

Brexit won.

 

Get over the fact that your horse lost - or change horses and stop whining.

What youtime describe is a horse race, not democracy.

 

Repeatedly one gets evidence that Brexiteers think democracy is akin to some kind of sport...usually football.

All this shows is how badly they understand the basic principals of democracy.

Government of the people, by the people for the people.

It's a pity so many people don't understand the principles of the system in which they were brought up.

[kwilco]

Not "project fear", this is project fact.

We already know from previous experience what delays at Dover can do.

This is not indisputable....

 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/mp-tom-tugendhats-fury-over-no-deal-brexit-plan-for-m26-motorway-11523504

Edited October 11, 2018 by kwilco

[kwilco]

This is what the referendum was really like......

 

It is also the right of every democracy to change their mind.

[vinny41]

21 minutes ago, kwilco said:

What youtime describe is a horse race, not democracy.

 

Repeatedly one gets evidence that Brexiteers think democracy is akin to some kind of sport...usually football.

All this shows is how badly they understand the basic principals of democracy.

Government of the people, by the people for the people.

It's a pity so many people don't understand the principles of the system in which they were brought up.

And the Goverment gave the decision to the people and stated 

This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide

[vinny41]

10 minutes ago, kwilco said:

This is what the referendum was really like......

 

It is also the right of every democracy to change their mind.

Is this the same A C Grayling

 

'This is ABSURD!' Arch-Remainer EXPLODES as Andrew Neil says he called Leavers 'VERMIN'

ANDREW NEIL clashed with AC Grayling in a furious Brexit debate after the BBC host accused the professor of calling leave voters “vermin”.

 

The same A C Grayling “You are a respected professor but you have suggested that the Government send a Royal Navy frigate to the South China Sea so the Chinese could sink it and change the news agenda

The same A C Grayling

 

“You have called Brexiteers vermin, that’s 17.4million people.

“You called for a general strike to halt Brexit.

“And you have called for ultra Remainers, you said they’re being silenced by the forces of the state, which I guess is why you are not here tonight.”

AC Grayling attempted to interrupt Mr Neil before he attacked the Leave campaign.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/974667/Brexit-news-UK-EU-BBC-Andrew-Neil-AC-Grayling-European-Union

[vinny41]

On 9/19/2018 at 12:00 AM, kwilco said:

accept post Brexit tariffs may be different

 

In the UK there as no tariffs at resent, as a country outside the EU you will automatically subject to tariffs....most likely WTO ones for each separate material classification as well as the item.

Even if you comply to all EU regs yourvoroduct will be subject to the fees, duties and taxes of any country that has no trade deal with the EU.

Manufacturers and users of multiple materials will probably need an agent to export and legal advice to sort out all the various WTO /EU tariffs that pertain to their product ... as will their shippers.

 

You will note that the BMW mini plant has gone to a 3 day week until Xmas...... this is to anticipate chaos in their supply chain of parts and materials post Brexit.

The BMW plant hasn't gone to a 3 day week until XMAS ,

Jaguar Land Rover announced on Monday that up to 3,000 employees at its Castle Bromwich plant will work a reduced three-day week until Christmas.

This is due to reduced demand in light of the recent decline in sales of diesel models.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45550025

[vinny41]

On 9/18/2018 at 1:57 PM, tebee said:

Others are preparing for no deal too 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/bmw-to-shut-mini-factory-for-a-month-after-brexit-day-sky-sources-11501360

 BMW said the downtime would be used to start preparing the plant to make the new electric Mini.

Factory shutdowns are common in the car industry. Machinery needs to be repaired or replaced and updates or modifications to production lines carried out. Usually at Mini this happens during the summer and is built into the carmaker's output planning.

What BMW has done is simply reschedule that shutdown to coincide with a potential period of serious disruption at the borders after Brexit, if we leave the EU without a deal. If the plant is not actually making cars, then a shortage of imported parts should not be so much of a problem. The company says a no-deal outcome is unlikely, but has to be planned for.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45561908

[Kieran00001]

18 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

The BMW plant hasn't gone to a 3 day week until XMAS ,

Jaguar Land Rover announced on Monday that up to 3,000 employees at its Castle Bromwich plant will work a reduced three-day week until Christmas.

This is due to reduced demand in light of the recent decline in sales of diesel models.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45550025

 

24 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

The BMW plant hasn't gone to a 3 day week until XMAS ,

Jaguar Land Rover announced on Monday that up to 3,000 employees at its Castle Bromwich plant will work a reduced three-day week until Christmas.

This is due to reduced demand in light of the recent decline in sales of diesel models.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45550025

 

According to the BBC it is because of slumps in diesel sales, but the Jaguar Land Rover spokesperson at the press release said, "We're facing a number of challenges, and Brexit is one, but it's not the only one." Not sure how the BBC missed them directly naming Brexit as one of the reasons for their cutbacks.

[vinny41]

7 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

 

According to the BBC it is because of slumps in diesel sales, but the Jaguar Land Rover spokesperson at the press release said, "We're facing a number of challenges, and Brexit is one, but it's not the only one." Not sure how the BBC missed them directly naming Brexit as one of the reasons for their cutbacks.

According to Autoexpress September’s figures show dramatic downturn in new car market, with diesel sales down 42.5 per cent

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/94714/new-car-sales-plummet-by-a-fifth-as-wltp-emission-rules-bite

[Scott]

Inflammatory post reported and removed.  

 

[Kieran00001]

24 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

According to Autoexpress September’s figures show dramatic downturn in new car market, with diesel sales down 42.5 per cent

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/94714/new-car-sales-plummet-by-a-fifth-as-wltp-emission-rules-bite

 

Yes, new sales are down generally, the diesel sales being down couldn't effect that one plant by that degree on its own as that plant doesn't make diesel engines it just assembles cars and most cars they assemble have petrol engines.

[welovesundaysatspace]

28 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

According to Autoexpress September’s figures show dramatic downturn in new car market, with diesel sales down 42.5 per cent

That supports the Land Rover spokesperson’s Statement that “Brexit  is (...) not the only [challenge]”.

[My Thai Life]

One or two remain posters have said that any member state will be able to veto the terms of the UK’s withdrawal.

 

But according to the European Commission:

 

“At the end of the negotiation period, the Union negotiator will present an agreement proposal to the Council and the European Parliament, taking into account the framework of the future relationship of the UK with the EU.

 

The European Parliament must give its consent, by a vote of simple majority, including Members of the European Parliament from the UK.

 

The Council will conclude the agreement, by a vote of strong qualified majority.”

 

(Strong qualified majority = 72% of the 27 Member States, i.e. 20 Member States representing 65% of the population of the EU27.)

[Guest]

Didn't EU just grant 6 billion loan for UK car manufacturers for electric car development? 

 

[vinny41]

14 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Yes, new sales are down generally, the diesel sales being down couldn't effect that one plant by that degree on its own as that plant doesn't make diesel engines it just assembles cars and most cars they assemble have petrol engines.

 According to figures from research company JATO, in the first quarter of 2018 the share of UK diesel sales fell to just 33%, down from a peak of 49% in 2014. With diesels accounting for 94% of Land Rover’s sales last year, that is certainly going to hit the brand hard. That said, Jaguar and Land Rover both offer petrol engines, so there should be little to stop JLR following the trend away from diesels.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/analysis-challenges-facing-jaguar-land-rover

The Castle Bromwich Assembly Plant builds the following models Jaguar XE,Jaguar XF,Jaguar XJ, and the Jaguar F-Type 

with both diesel engines and petrol engines

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Bromwich_Assembly

Both diesel engine and petrol engines are produced at a seperate plant

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_Manufacturing_Centre

[vinny41]

10 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Didn't EU just grant 6 billion loan for UK car manufacturers for electric car development? 

 

Unlikely unless you have a link to support that news item

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

And the Goverment gave the decision to the people and stated 

This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide

On who's authority did Cameron's government state the referendum would be binding? Not mine.