UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[aright]

12 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Winnings?  Don't feel too much like winnings to me. 

Of course it doesn't. You lost the race! Remember?

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, oilinki said:

The difference between Russian trolls and real information.

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/most-europeans-have-a-negative-attitude-towards-the-eu/

 

""The EU project has failed", says pro-Kremlin media. Don't be deceived. "

 

Twitter account to follow: https://twitter.com/EUvsDisinfo

The above twitter feed is managed by The East StratCom Task Force is a part of the administration of the European Union, focused on proactive communication of EU policies and activities in the Eastern neighbourhood (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine)^[1] and beyond^[2] (Russia itself).^[1] The Team was created as a conclusion of the European Council meeting on 19 and 20 March 2015, stressing the need to challenge the ongoing disinformation campaigns by Russia.“^[3]

 

 

Criticism[edit]

An article published October 2016 on Kommunikations Forum analyses the sources East StratCom use for debunking alleged disinformation. It criticizes the top three sites, Ukrainian StopFake, EU and NATO, for not being objective credible sources in this regard.^[21][22]

An opinion piece written by Danish commentator, Iben Thranholm, published on Russia Insider October 2015, were listed by East StratCom as pro-Kremlin disinformation. Member of the Danish Parliament, Marie Krarup, upon discovery raised the issue in January 2017, demanding Foreign Minister, Anders Samuelsen, to take action and stop ‘black listing’ of opinions, which he declined as the listing in his view was correctly labeled 'disinformation in support for Russia'.^[23] In response 28 commentators wrote a joint critique stressing their concern that ‘anybody with a critical view on mass immigration could end up in the black book of EU’.^[24]

An article published October 2016 on Folkets Avis, lists several instances, where East StratCom has labelled critique of non Western immigration to EU as pro-Kremlin disinformation, regardless that neither the media or the content has any relation to Russia.^[25]

Research conducted by investigative journalists at Danish newspaper, Politiken, showed that East StratCom along with Western media falsely blamed separatists, not government forces, in Eastern Ukraine for initiating an offensive in the area of Avdiivka in January 2017. Sources used by East StratCom included InformNapalm which the article shows has ties to Ukrainian death list, Myrotvorets(Peacemaker) that lists people including journalists as 'traitors' for expressing certain opinions or visiting separatist controlled areas in Eastern Ukraine.^[26]

Upon discovery of being listed for publishing pro-Kremlin disinformation, three Dutch major media organisations has sued the EU for libel.^[27][28][29] On 6 March 2018, a majority of 109 votes to 41 of the Dutch Parliament voted to close EUvsDisinfo.^[30] On 8 March 2018, East StratCom announced they had deleted the listings of Dutch media in their database "following a detailed review".^[31] On 9 March 2018, Dutch Minister of the Interior, who had previously^[32] opposed closing EUvsDisinfo, said that the government would make a case for closing it in the European Union.^[33][34] On 13 March 2018 the three Dutch media withdrew their case.^[35]

 

It would appear the Dutch Goverment intended to make a case for this site to be closed down 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_StratCom_Team

[tebee]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-falklands-islands-single-market-trade-eu-fishing-loligo-squid-government-a8347696.html

 

[whatsupdoc]

Come on, Tebee. Most Brexiteers do not care about Scotland, Northern Ireland or Gibraltar. What makes you think they would care about the Falklands?


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[vinny41]

17 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Theresa E Coyote is working on yet another doomed plan! It won't be popular. 60% plus want a close alliance.

 

It's not just me predicting trouble is it, in fact which respected body isn't?

 

I don't see what would be the great transgression if it was shelved a while: that would be perfectly sensible actually so that a properly thought process can replace this omnishambles. The country faces far greater challenges imo. 

 

I can't see the point of going ahead with a plan that no one really wants. Where's the sense in that?  Theoretical anyway, most likely a deal will be voted down, or Labour will move provided it meets them half way and there is a clause which allows them to change the deal if they get in to power.

 

I think I probably said I didn't think Corbyn is electable because of the real socialism he offers, and because England is basically blue country. That's not to say I think he's not up to the job.  In fact I believe Labour are ideal for the situation.  It's just that as soon as a Tory dangles the carrot of home ownership and a bright future, the big smile. comes back and eyes start boggling.  All sweet FA of course.  But I guess hope is all most people have left.

 

Anyway back to reality: more blue chickens-https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-uk-economy-office-for-budget-responsibility-no-deal-gdp-investment-inflation-a8579306.html

60% plus want a close alliance.  can you provide a link that supports this claim as i am not aware of any poll that has taken place where they have contacted 20,131,189 million people given that is 60% of the 33 million people that voted in 2016

Everyone knows you can skewed a sample vote of 1,000 people to give you the outcome your seeking

[billd766]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

'Nobody in their right mind thought it would be easy.'

 

Bill, Boris said it would be easy.

 

People are just asking for what they voted for- the present deal falls way short of that anticipated at the time of the vote.

 

Nobody wants to invest in a bad deal.  Everyone complains when they buy something and then get something less.

 

Boris is a politician. Do you believe what all politicians say? I certainly don't.

 

Did you believe Nigel Farage when he stood by the bus with that damn great big sign? I didn't, so why would you believe what Boris said?

 

Of course people want what they voted for. I voted Brexit and want the UK to leave the EU with the best deal that it can.

 

The EU commission wants the UK to leave also but wants to make it as hard for the UK as possible so as to deter other countries from doing the same.

 

I agree that at the outset there was no plan set up for leaving and that the UK has been winging it. Equally there was no contingency plan in the EU in case a country wanted to leave. The EU are not winging it but saying NO to each proposal that the UK brings up.

 

Now we are down to the last 6 months and both sides are starting to realise that there HAS to be some sort of agreement, like it or not. The 2 year transitional period starts the day after Brexit when teams from both sides sit around tables fine tuning what they have.

[My Thai Life]

@tebee 

 

The main thrust of Ivan Rogers' recent speech (and thanks again for linking that) is that Brexit has been taken over by hardliners. This is just dishonest - the reverse is true. The referendum was an in-out vote, but it is being led by a remainer (May) who is proposing a half-in-half-out solution, despite her previous Lancaster House speech (and GE manifesto) honouring the outcome of the referendum.

 

I respect Rogers' experience greatly, and some of his earlier speeches have been informative and thought-provoking, but this latest is just playing to the gallery. His comparison of senior Brexiters' approach to Mussolini's is no better than posters here comparing EU leaders to Nazis, or that guy in the Tory conference comparing the EU to the USSR. I can understand people on this forum letting off steam, and politicians' conference soundbites, but this from a former very senior civil servant does nothing but display his extreme bias - a very serious failing in the Civil Service.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Of course people want what they voted for. I voted Brexit and want the UK to leave the EU with the best deal that it can.

 

The EU commission wants the UK to leave also but wants to make it as hard for the UK as possible so as to deter other countries from doing the same.

So you want UK to leave and have the best deal UK can get? I think that ok and fair.

 

If we Europeans want EU to have the best possible deal, that is somehow translated in your mind that EU is the bad guy and want to hurt UK?

 

Why is that?

 

Of course we want EU to get the best possible deal for us from Brexit. That's why we also understand that UK wishes to get the same for herself. 

[billd766]

5 minutes ago, oilinki said:

So you want UK to leave and have the best deal UK can get? I think that ok and fair.

 

If we Europeans want EU to have the best possible deal, that is somehow translated in your mind that EU is the bad guy and want to hurt UK?

 

Why is that?

 

Of course we want EU to get the best possible deal for us from Brexit. That's why we also understand that UK wishes to get the same for herself. 

 

In a negotiation both sides set out what they want and negotiate to what they can agree to. If one side constantly refuse to meet even part way or compromise then there is no negotiation, just a point blank refusal 

 

At some point the other side walks away and eventually does what it wants to do.

 

The net result of that is bad feelings and acrimony on both sides. 

 

You and many other Remainers keep telling us poor misguided Brexiteers that the EU has the upper hand and will always win, so why do you bother to negotiate?

Edited October 12, 2018 by billd766
added extra text

[Stupooey]

7 hours ago, tebee said:

Short answer - NO 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_France

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Thailand

 

Slightly longer answer for Thailand - YES. Section 44, anyone?

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, tebee said:

But he might be an Expert - we all know leavers have an allergy to experts...

Not sure about that but several of us suffer reactions from remainers.

[adammike]

8 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

In a negotiation both sides set out what they want and negotiate to what they can agree to. If one side constantly refuse to meet even part way or compromise then there is no negotiation, just a point blank refusal 

 

At some point the other side walks away and eventually does what it wants to do.

 

The net result of that is bad feelings and acrimony on both sides. 

 

You and many other Remainers keep telling us poor misguided Brexiteers that the EU has the upper hand and will always win, so why do you bother to negotiate?

The EUs position from day one is that there will be no winners from brexit,also they will do everything to protect the single market.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

Come on, Tebee. Most Brexiteers do not care about Scotland, Northern Ireland or Gibraltar. What makes you think they would care about the Falklands?


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

More false and untrue assumptions. 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

In a negotiation both sides set out what they want and negotiate to what they can agree to. If one side constantly refuse to meet even part way or compromise then there is no negotiation, just a point blank refusal 

 

At some point the other side walks away and eventually does what it wants to do.

 

The net result of that is bad feelings and acrimony on both sides. 

 

You and many other Remainers keep telling us poor misguided Brexiteers that the EU has the upper hand and will always win, so why do you bother to negotiate?

Indeed. It's an divorce negotiation between 28 equal parties. Now why do you say that EU is evil if 27 of these equal parties want something and one does want something else?

 

 

 

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, dunroaming said:

Winnings?  Don't feel too much like winnings to me. 

Quite, a pile of horse dung!

 

 

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

More false and untrue assumptions. 

Now Brexit really is threatening to tear the UK apart

Polling this week showed that 77% of English Tory members would rather see Scottish independence than abandon Brexit; much the same proportion of May’s party say they would sacrifice the Irish peace process too.

 

 

[Stupooey]

19 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Theresa E Coyote is working on yet another doomed plan! It won't be popular. 60% plus want a close alliance.

 

It's not just me predicting trouble is it, in fact which respected body isn't?

 

I don't see what would be the great transgression if it was shelved a while: that would be perfectly sensible actually so that a properly thought process can replace this omnishambles. The country faces far greater challenges imo. 

 

I can't see the point of going ahead with a plan that no one really wants. Where's the sense in that?  Theoretical anyway, most likely a deal will be voted down, or Labour will move provided it meets them half way and there is a clause which allows them to change the deal if they get in to power.

 

I think I probably said I didn't think Corbyn is electable because of the real socialism he offers, and because England is basically blue country. That's not to say I think he's not up to the job.  In fact I believe Labour are ideal for the situation.  It's just that as soon as a Tory dangles the carrot of home ownership and a bright future, the big smile. comes back and eyes start boggling.  All sweet FA of course.  But I guess hope is all most people have left.

 

Anyway back to reality: more blue chickens-https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-uk-economy-office-for-budget-responsibility-no-deal-gdp-investment-inflation-a8579306.html

 

I don't think we would have to worry too much about Corbyn being elected, after all if he started to go down the road of economic ruin (as some here seem to think) he would soon fall foul of Maastricht and be reined in.....oh, just a second, we may not have that protection, so he will have 5 years of being able to do as he likes, with absolute sovereignty....la-di-da. At least if he bankrupted the country, it would be the will of the people.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

Now Brexit really is threatening to tear the UK apart

Polling this week showed that 77% of English Tory members would rather see Scottish independence than abandon Brexit; much the same proportion of May’s party say they would sacrifice the Irish peace process too.

Patriotism sure has funny ways to present itself these days. 

 

"I rather become torso, than be friends with my neighbours" - Tory Brexiters

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

60% plus want a close alliance.  can you provide a link that supports this claim as i am not aware of any poll that has taken place where they have contacted 20,131,189 million people given that is 60% of the 33 million people that voted in 2016

Everyone knows you can skewed a sample vote of 1,000 people to give you the outcome your seeking

Yes I posted one just a few days ago. You didn't see it or didn't want to look at.  Most people are in favour of a softer Brexit. 

 

The confusion is possibly that you think the electorate consists of Leavers only.

 

By the way, Wheres our Free Trade Deal?

[vinny41]

3 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Yes I posted one just a few days ago. You didn't see it or didn't want to look at.  Most people are in favour of a softer Brexit. 

 

The confusion is possibly that you think the electorate consists of Leavers only.

 

By the way, Wheres our Free Trade Deal?

You keep saying that people are in favour of a softer brexit but when asked you are unable to backup your claims

[Stupooey]

8 hours ago, hawksway said:

The question is, will Government ever give their Citizens the information to make a sensible decision?

 

No. That's why in the UK sovereignty rests with Parliament, to which we elect MPs to take decisions on our behalf. It's also why we never hold referenda (apart from trying to resolve intra-party disputes).

[Guest]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

The difference between Russian trolls and real information.

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/most-europeans-have-a-negative-attitude-towards-the-eu/

 

""The EU project has failed", says pro-Kremlin media. Don't be deceived. "

 

Twitter account to follow: https://twitter.com/EUvsDisinfo

 

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

The above twitter feed is managed by The East StratCom Task Force is a part of the administration of the European Union, focused on proactive communication of EU policies and activities in the Eastern neighbourhood (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine)^[1] and beyond^[2] (Russia itself).^[1] The Team was created as a conclusion of the European Council meeting on 19 and 20 March 2015, stressing the need to challenge the ongoing disinformation campaigns by Russia.“^[3]

Criticism[edit]

Yes, EU Disinfo is EU effort to stop Russian trolls spreading disinformation, like they have been able to do for so long.

 

I wonder if St Petersbourg is still experiencing fog today?

[vinny41]

54 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Now Brexit really is threatening to tear the UK apart

Polling this week showed that 77% of English Tory members would rather see Scottish independence than abandon Brexit; much the same proportion of May’s party say they would sacrifice the Irish peace process too.

 

 

 

Here the poll that you are quoting from they poll 2741 people when asked the question

Which, if any, of the following apply to you? Please tick all that apply. Member of the Conservative Party 4% out of 928 people polled

So out of the 2741 people polled only 4% out of 928 people polled were  Members of the Conservative Party

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/8gzxmxtckl/FOE_England_June2018_Results_w.pdf

Edited October 12, 2018 by vinny41

[vinny41]

8 minutes ago, oilinki said:

 

Yes, EU Disinfo is EU effort to stop Russian trolls spreading disinformation, like they have been able to do for so long.

 

I wonder if St Petersbourg is still experiencing fog today?

standard response from remainers when they asked to backup their claims

[tebee]

13 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Here the poll that you are quoting from they poll 2741 people when asked the question

Which, if any, of the following apply to you? Please tick all that apply. Member of the Conservative Party 1

So out of the 2741 people polled only 1 was a Member of the Conservative Party

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/8gzxmxtckl/FOE_England_June2018_Results_w.pdf

It's getting quite hard to find members of the Conservative Party these days - they are a dying breed.

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

In a negotiation both sides set out what they want and negotiate to what they can agree to. If one side constantly refuse to meet even part way or compromise then there is no negotiation, just a point blank refusal 

 

At some point the other side walks away and eventually does what it wants to do.

 

The net result of that is bad feelings and acrimony on both sides. 

 

You and many other Remainers keep telling us poor misguided Brexiteers that the EU has the upper hand and will always win, so why do you bother to negotiate?

What if it was not Britain leaving the EU, but another EU state?

 

Sometimes it's good to walk a mile with other side shoes and see how they might see the world. How would Britain think of the current situation if, let's say Ireland would be leaving the EU, while Britain would stay in?

 

Quote

 

Imagine a scenario where it was not Britain leaving the European Union but one of the other member states, whilst Britain was remaining. It is worth considering because it helps us to understand how—in the real scenario of Brexit—the EU27 are reacting. In particular, it helps us to understand why that reaction should not be described as punishment.

 

In the hypothetical case, Britain’s reaction would depend partly upon which country we imagine was leaving. Suppose it was Ireland. Then, Britain would see as its key strategic interest the need to preserve the Northern Ireland peace process and to uphold the Good Friday Agreement. Central to that would be ensuring as a non-negotiable position that, whatever form Ireland’s departure took, it would not create a hard border on the island. Britain would, undoubtedly, put maximum pressure upon the EU to hardwire this into Ireland’s Withdrawal Agreement—as a backstop, let’s call it. It is difficult to imagine many British politicians arguing otherwise.

 

 

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/the-ultimate-brexit-counterfactual

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Now Brexit really is threatening to tear the UK apart

Polling this week showed that 77% of English Tory members would rather see Scottish independence than abandon Brexit; much the same proportion of May’s party say they would sacrifice the Irish peace process too.

 

 

 

They are affectionately known in some circles as 'Little Englanders'. Whether some posters on this thread fit the typical profile characterized as 'boorish' and 'ignorant' I couldn't possibly comment.

 

I do not believe the electorate voted fo Brexit at any cost?  Indeed, I seem to remember something about a Free Trade Deal. Does anyone know what happened about that?

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

You keep saying that people are in favour of a softer brexit but when asked you are unable to backup your claims

I told you I posted an Independent poll published a few days ago on this thread. Having posted it, I don't think it is my task to repost it. Look for it! Less than 7 days ago.

 

Update: Look here it is.  It took me a minute on google search. It's not the only poll on the subject:https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/brexit-latest-no-deal-will-of-the-people-second-referendum-free-access-trade-a8571871.html

 

And here's an important passage:Offered a range of options, only 14 per cent support leaving the EU without a deal and trading on minimum World Trade Organisation terms. By contrast 61 per cent supported options that would give Britain frictionless access to the EU single market, including remaining as an EU member. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, Stupooey said:

 

I don't think we would have to worry too much about Corbyn being elected, after all if he started to go down the road of economic ruin (as some here seem to think) he would soon fall foul of Maastricht and be reined in.....oh, just a second, we may not have that protection, so he will have 5 years of being able to do as he likes, with absolute sovereignty....la-di-da. At least if he bankrupted the country, it would be the will of the people.

TORY TRIPE!

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

They are affectionately known in some circles as 'Little Englanders'. Whether some posters on this thread fit the typical profile characterized as 'boorish' and 'ignorant' I couldn't possibly comment.

 

I do not believe the electorate voted fo Brexit at any cost?  Indeed, I seem to remember something about a Free Trade Deal. Does anyone know what happened about that?

All you need to know that the electorate voted to leave, and making tacky remarks about "little Englanders" does nothing to improve your point, infact I think most of the leavers thought you were a fair remain poster, mmmnnnn.