UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

Why not every other remainer on here speaks for the people why can't a leaver speak for the people

They can and do.  But it's advisable to check facts.

[aright]

[kwilco]

What has Brexit done for us?

Finally something Brexiteers can be proud of?

Home office report.....

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/16/hate-crime-brexit-terrorist-attacks-england-wales

 

 

 

[tebee]

Sir John Major delivering at the Michael Quinlan Lecture says: “no form of Brexit will remotely match up to the promises made by the Leave Campaign in the referendum:  they were vote-gathering fantasies, not serious politics."

[tebee]

18 hours ago, tebee said:

Ah - life is so simple for breiters - none of the nuances, consequences and complications of the real world.

This is how complex no deal brexit will be for everybody 

 

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/charts/what-government-needs-do-prepare-no-deal-brexit

 

[vinny41]

9 minutes ago, tebee said:

This is how complex no deal brexit will be for everybody 

 

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/charts/what-government-needs-do-prepare-no-deal-brexit

 

Revealed: the Institute for Government’s Europhile links

 

This week the Times splashed on a report by the Institute for Government branding Theresa May’s Brexit plans ‘chaotic and dysfunctional’. The research group claimed that Whitehall is overwhelmed by the size of the task ahead and expressed concerns about its feasibility.

However, while many Bremoaners have leapt on its findings as proof that the government’s Brexit approach is shambolic, Mr S suggests they take a close look at the group behind it. With a board composed of the likes of Neil Kinnock’s former Chief of Staff at the European Commission, Sir Andrew Cahn, and a range of Labour MPs and peers, it can’t be considered the most neutral outlet.

What’s more, the Institute for Government received a core grant of £3.5 million from the Gatsby Charitable Foundation for 2016 -17. And just who is behind this foundation? Well, it was established by Lord Sainsbury — the top Labour donor who Alan Johnson described as having ‘really tried to stop Brexit‘.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/revealed-institute-governments-europhile-links/

[whatsupdoc]

3 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Revealed: the Institute for Government’s Europhile links

 

This week the Times splashed on a report by the Institute for Government branding Theresa May’s Brexit plans ‘chaotic and dysfunctional’. The research group claimed that Whitehall is overwhelmed by the size of the task ahead and expressed concerns about its feasibility.

However, while many Bremoaners have leapt on its findings as proof that the government’s Brexit approach is shambolic, Mr S suggests they take a close look at the group behind it. With a board composed of the likes of Neil Kinnock’s former Chief of Staff at the European Commission, Sir Andrew Cahn, and a range of Labour MPs and peers, it can’t be considered the most neutral outlet.

What’s more, the Institute for Government received a core grant of £3.5 million from the Gatsby Charitable Foundation for 2016 -17. And just who is behind this foundation? Well, it was established by Lord Sainsbury — the top Labour donor who Alan Johnson described as having ‘really tried to stop Brexit‘.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/revealed-institute-governments-europhile-links/

Another case of shoot the messenger but totally ignore the message.

[welovesundaysatspace]

3 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Mr S suggests they take a close look at the group behind it. 

“Mr S”? And did “Mr S” also take a close look at the contents?

 

[My Thai Life]

It has frequently been asserted here that leaving the EU will be a terrible blow to young people. This article gives a slightly different perspective.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/10/16/poverty-rises-southern-eu-states-thanks-ongoing-impact-financial/

 

 

 

 

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

37 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

It has frequently been asserted here that leaving the EU will be a terrible blow to young people. This article gives a slightly different perspective.

What slightly different perspective? 

[My Thai Life]

Various posters seem to favour  staying in the Customs Union. I wonder if they know that:

 

“As a customs union member, the UK must charge rather high tariffs, at rates set by Brussels, on various exports from outside the EU. So British shoppers will keep paying more for imports from around the world, particularly food, clothing and shoes – given that prices include tariffs designed to protect uncompetitive producers in other EU states.

 

Under customs-union rules, 80pc of these tariff revenues go to Brussels – billions of pounds each year. And because the UK trades more with non-EU countries than other large EU members do, we pay an unfairly high share of the combined tariff revenues.”

 

No wonder the EU wants us in the CU (apart from all the other reasons)!

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/10/13/staying-customs-union-not-option/

Edited October 17, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Orac]

Various posters seem to favour  staying in the Customs Union. I wonder if they know that:
 
“As a customs union member, the UK must charge rather high tariffs, at rates set by Brussels, on various exports from outside the EU. So British shoppers will keep paying more for imports from around the world, particularly food, clothing and shoes – given that prices include tariffs designed to protect uncompetitive producers in other EU states.
 

Under customs-union rules, 80pc of these tariff revenues go to Brussels – billions of pounds each year. And because the UK trades more with non-EU countries than other large EU members do, we pay an unfairly high share of the combined tariff revenues.”

 
No wonder the EU wants us in the CU (apart from all the other reason)!
 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/10/13/staying-customs-union-not-option/

You are ignoring all the various FTA deals and other preference agreements that the EU has in place which means that the majority of imports into the U.K. do not have these high tariffs applied to them and, when it comes to foodstuffs,the vast majority comes from countries where zero tariffs apply.

The U.K. has already submitted to the WTO that we will be applying the EU external tariff after Brexit which effectively means that these high tariffs that you point out will be applied to the bulk of our imports and will cause a significant increase in the price of foodstuffs.


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[My Thai Life]

7 minutes ago, Orac said:

You are ignoring all the various FTA deals and other preference agreements that the EU has in place which means that the majority of imports into the U.K. do not have these high tariffs applied to them and, when it comes to foodstuffs,the vast majority comes from countries where zero tariffs apply.

You repeatedly claim this. Please provide specific evidence, about foodstuffs.

[My Thai Life]

9 minutes ago, Orac said:

The U.K. has already submitted to the WTO that we will be applying the EU external tariff after Brexit which effectively means that these high tariffs that you point out will be applied to the bulk of our imports and will cause a significant increase in the price of foodstuffs.

I haven't seen specific news to support this, and in any case it would depend on the type and speed of the exit, obviously.

Evidence please.

[My Thai Life]

24 minutes ago, Orac said:

The U.K. has already submitted to the WTO that we will be applying the EU external tariff after Brexit which effectively means that these high tariffs that you point out will be applied to the bulk of our imports and will cause a significant increase in the price of foodstuffs.


"On 24 July 2018 the United Kingdom submitted to the World Trade Organisation (WTO) draft new national schedules of tariffs and equivalent charges on UK imports of goods, to come into effect when the UK leaves the European Union.  Their contents will become public in due course.  For now they are confidential to WTO member governments (including the EU27), who have been given three months in which to offer comments through the WTO machinery.  This article explains why the UK initiative is necessary, and the procedures which it sets in motion."

 

Mchael Johnson, former senior official at the DTI.

 

Please note it says nothing about applying the EU external tariff.

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Orac]

12 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

You repeatedly claim this. Please provide specific evidence, about foodstuffs.

Again - I did this a couple of days ago and you vanished.

 

Here is an overview of EU imports from Africa

 

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2017/november/tradoc_156399.pdf

 

And the specific regulation enabling it

 

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=1539751942265&uri=CELEX:32012R0978

 

 

This is the latest U.K. Govt report on our food supply

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/food-statistics-pocketbook-2017/food-statistics-in-your-pocket-2017-global-and-uk-supply

 

That shows we only produce 50% of our own foodstuff and 30% from the EU - that means 60% of the food we import is from the EU alone and will be subject to tariffs without a deal before you add on the current zero-rated stuff under FTA/preference deals.

 

As a reminder here are the tariffs that you posted earlier that will start applying to all the imports that are currently zero-rated if we leave without a deal

[damascase]

42 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Under customs-union rules, 80pc of these tariff revenues go to Brussels – billions of pounds each year. And because the UK trades more with non-EU countries than other large EU members do, we pay an unfairly high share of the combined tariff revenues.”

Looks like the UK has been short-changing the EU for around € 2.7 billion:

 

Brussels, 24 September 2018

Based on a proposal by the Commissioner for Budget and Human Resources, Günther H. Oettinger, today the European Commission has decided to send a Reasoned Opinion to the United Kingdom because of its failure to make customs duties available to the EU budget, as required by EU law.

This is the second step the Commission is taking in the formal infringement procedure for this case in order to protect the financial interests of the EU. In March 2018, the Commission opened the infringement procedure following a 2017 report by the EU's anti-fraud body OLAF, which found that importers in the United Kingdom evaded a large amount of customs duties by using fictitious and false invoices and incorrect customs value declarations at importation. Further Commission inspections confirmed the very large scale of this undervaluation fraud scheme operating through British ports between 2011 and 2017. Despite having been informed of the risks of fraud relating to the imports of textiles and footwear originating from the People's Republic of China since 2007, and despite having been asked to take appropriate risk control measures, the United Kingdom failed to take effective action to prevent the fraud.

The Commission calculates that the infringement of EU legislation by the United Kingdom resulted in losses to the EU budget amounting to €2.7 billion (plus interest and minus collection costs) during the period between November 2011 and October 2017. In addition, the United Kingdom also infringed EU Value Added Tax legislation, leading to additional potential losses to the EU budget.

All Member States are liable for the financial consequences of their infringements of EU law.

The United Kingdom now has two months to act; otherwise the Commission may refer the case to the Court of Justice of the EU.

Edited October 17, 2018 by damascase

[Orac]

"On 24 July 2018 the United Kingdom submitted to the World Trade Organisation (WTO) draft new national schedules of tariffs and equivalent charges on UK imports of goods, to come into effect when the UK leaves the European Union.  Their contents will become public in due course.  For now they are confidential to WTO member governments (including the EU27), who have been given three months in which to offer comments through the WTO machinery.  This article explains why the UK initiative is necessary, and the procedures which it sets in motion."

 

Mchael Johnson, former senior official at the DTI.

 

Please note it says nothing about applying the EU external tariff.

 

 

 

The U.K. has not had the time to agree a new tariff schedule which would involve a massive consultation with industry and take more time than has been available so far - also there has been no mention from govt or industry that any of these talks have specifically taken place yet.

 

If the U.K. has submitted a tariff that varies from the EU one it would be a massive task to get it through the WTO where any member could block it whereas the hope would be, that by adopting the same tariffs that are currently in place, this can get through quickly.

 

There is nothing to say we cannot do this later after Brexit but it is a massive task, difficult to get through WTO/EU and puts us in a tough position negotiating new trade deals - why would anyone want to negotiate with us it they didn’t know what our position regarding tariffs was going to be.

 

 

https://blogs.fco.gov.uk/julianbraithwaite/2017/01/23/ensuring-a-smooth-transition-in-the-wto-as-we-leave-the-eu/

 

 

 

 

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[wotsdermatter]

Most people are not aware that to fly a national flag upside down is either a call for help, especially on ships or as an insult to the country the flag represents.  Why in the picture is our flag flown upside down?  Just curious.

 

'nuf sed.

[Orac]

Looks like the UK has been short-changing the EU for around € 2.7 billion:
 

Brussels, 24 September 2018

Based on a proposal by the Commissioner for Budget and Human Resources, Günther H. Oettinger, today the European Commission has decided to send a Reasoned Opinion to the United Kingdom because of its failure to make customs duties available to the EU budget, as required by EU law.

This is the second step the Commission is taking in the formal infringement procedure for this case in order to protect the financial interests of the EU. In March 2018, the Commission opened the infringement procedure following a 2017 report by the EU's anti-fraud body OLAF, which found that importers in the United Kingdom evaded a large amount of customs duties by using fictitious and false invoices and incorrect customs value declarations at importation. Further Commission inspections confirmed the very large scale of this undervaluation fraud scheme operating through British ports between 2011 and 2017. Despite having been informed of the risks of fraud relating to the imports of textiles and footwear originating from the People's Republic of China since 2007, and despite having been asked to take appropriate risk control measures, the United Kingdom failed to take effective action to prevent the fraud.

The Commission calculates that the infringement of EU legislation by the United Kingdom resulted in losses to the EU budget amounting to €2.7 billion (plus interest and minus collection costs) during the period between November 2011 and October 2017. In addition, the United Kingdom also infringed EU Value Added Tax legislation, leading to additional potential losses to the EU budget.

All Member States are liable for the financial consequences of their infringements of EU law.

The United Kingdom now has two months to act; otherwise the Commission may refer the case to the Court of Justice of the EU.

It has been an issue for many years and, as the EU are saying, U.K. HMRC put very little effort in dealing with it particularly for our large clothing importers. I had retired before the period in question but some of the invoices I used to see were ridiculous- one major high street name brought in a container load of ladies night gowns and prices them at 6p each


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[whatsupdoc]

6 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

 

It has been an issue for many years and, as the EU are saying, U.K. HMRC put very little effort in dealing with it particularly for our large clothing importers. I had retired before the period in question but some of the invoices I used to see were ridiculous- one major high street name brought in a container load of ladies night gowns and prices them at 6p each


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All the more reason why the EU insists on a proper agreement with regard to the Irish border and also why the Chequers plan was never viable.

[mommysboy]

His view of them: “I believe those who promised what will never be delivered will have much to answer for. They persuaded a deceived population to vote to be weaker and poorer. That will never be forgotten -- nor forgiven.”

 

Sir John Major

[mfd101]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

His view of them: “I believe those who promised what will never be delivered will have much to answer for. They persuaded a deceived population to vote to be weaker and poorer. That will never be forgotten -- nor forgiven.”

 

Sir John Major

Coming from him, that's pretty good.

[mommysboy]

Mr Grieve :“And I have to say to her that, in those circumstances, I will not be able to support the government in this unless this matter is put to the British people again, because it’s entirely different from what was discussed and negotiated during the referendum in 2016.”

 

[vogie]

18 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

His view of them: “I believe those who promised what will never be delivered will have much to answer for. They persuaded a deceived population to vote to be weaker and poorer. That will never be forgotten -- nor forgiven.”

 

Sir John Major

I think that's a bit rich coming from John Major, he endorsed Cameron in having a referendum, he didn't get the result he wanted, so let's have another.

[mommysboy]

8 minutes ago, vogie said:

I think that's a bit rich coming from John Major, he endorsed Cameron in having a referendum, he didn't get the result he wanted, so let's have another.

He didn't endorse the 'pie in the sky' promises.

Edited October 17, 2018 by mommysboy

[transam]

5 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

He didn't endorse the 'pie in the sky' promises.

oooops

Edited October 17, 2018 by transam

[nauseus]

9 hours ago, tebee said:

Sir John Major delivering at the Michael Quinlan Lecture says: “no form of Brexit will remotely match up to the promises made by the Leave Campaign in the referendum:  they were vote-gathering fantasies, not serious politics."

And sir John is an expert on these subjects so listen up folks!

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Orac said:

 

You are ignoring all the various FTA deals and other preference agreements that the EU has in place which means that the majority of imports into the U.K. do not have these high tariffs applied to them and, when it comes to foodstuffs,the vast majority comes from countries where zero tariffs apply.

The U.K. has already submitted to the WTO that we will be applying the EU external tariff after Brexit which effectively means that these high tariffs that you point out will be applied to the bulk of our imports and will cause a significant increase in the price of foodstuffs.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

This statement could do with some real evidence, please.

[vogie]

53 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

His view of them: “I believe those who promised what will never be delivered will have much to answer for. They persuaded a deceived population to vote to be weaker and poorer. That will never be forgotten -- nor forgiven.”

 

Sir John Major

"We must not allow the remainers to betray the people" Kate Hoey