UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Orac said:

 

Sorry but no.

 

the full rate of duty on roasted coffee is 7.5% but does not apply in the vast majority of cases for Africa  - I believe Gabon is the exception as they have not ratified the agreement.

 

the largest coffee producer in Africa is Ethiopia and they have duty free access to EU for coffee whether roasted or not.

 

 https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/0901210000?country=ET&day=16&month=10&year=2018#import

 

 

 

I think Aright's link was fair, considering the date of it.

 

Now read this from: https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/china-is-winning-the-new-scramble-for-africa-brexit-could-change-that/

 

"The EU now allows certain processed foods such as cocoa and roasted coffee to be imported from the least developed countries tariff-free. In treating free trade as a humanitarian gesture, however, the EU merely emphasises its instinctive protectionism".

[My Thai Life]

Hot off the press.

 

"EU chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier has offered to extend the transition period by a year to allow more time for future talks on a trade deal, diplomats have said ahead of summit Brussels."

 

Not sure if that's what we want, but...

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/17/brexit-live-michel-barnier-offers-extend-transition-period-ahead/

 

 

[Orac]

 
I think Aright's link was fair, considering the date of it.
 
Now read this from: https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/china-is-winning-the-new-scramble-for-africa-brexit-could-change-that/
 
"The EU now allows certain processed foods such as cocoa and roasted coffee to be imported from the least developed countries tariff-free. In treating free trade as a humanitarian gesture, however, the EU merely emphasises its instinctive protectionism".

I can accept that this might be more of a case of the writer being out of touch and not up to date on the situation when the article was written in Nov 2016 with the new rule giving the zero rate coming in 1/1/2014 as can be seen in my screenshot rather than a deliberate attempt to mislead with out of date information.


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[whatsupdoc]

26 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Hot off the press.

 

"EU chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier has offered to extend the transition period by a year to allow more time for future talks on a trade deal, diplomats have said ahead of summit Brussels."

 

Not sure if that's what we want, but...

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/17/brexit-live-michel-barnier-offers-extend-transition-period-ahead/

 

 

It is not what the UK wants (from the Guardian):

A No 10 source said there was no change to the UK’s approach to the transition period, which is scheduled to end in December 2020. “We are not calling for an extension to the implementation period,” the source said.

[My Thai Life]

24 minutes ago, Orac said:

I can accept that this might be more of a case of the writer being out of touch and not up to date on the situation when the article was written in Nov 2016 with the new rule giving the zero rate coming in 1/1/2014 as can be seen in my screenshot rather than a deliberate attempt to mislead with out of date information.

Unlike your deliberate attempt to mislead with a blatant lie that the UK has applied to the WTO for the EU 3rd country tariff schedule. 

 

The GSP is not significant whatsoever in this debate on this forum or elsewhere, that's why the only person raising it is you.

[Orac]

Unlike your deliberate attempt to mislead with a blatant lie that the UK has applied to the WTO for the EU 3rd country tariff schedule. 
 
The GSP is not significant whatsoever in this debate on this forum or elsewhere, that's why the only person raising it is you.

Still going low with the incorrect “blatant lie” claim I see - how sad.

If you think zero-tariffs from Africa is not significant to the debate you clearly don’t understand the issue.


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[My Thai Life]

It’s incredible that a few people here are still trying to promote EU agricultural policy. It’s one of the least desirable aspects of the EU (and there are many to choose from).

 

Whether you consider EU agricultural policy from the viewpoint of economics, environmental stewardship, morality regarding developing nations, or morality regarding animal welfare, it is an abject failure.

 

Obviously the ideologues here are not interested or informed.

 

“Greenpeace EU agriculture policy director Marco Contiero said: “The Commission’s plans offer almost no protection for health, the environment and climate. The EU props up the agriculture industry with billions every year. The least people can expect is that these investments help achieve climate and environment goals, and deliver healthy, nutritious food. The European Parliament and our governments must fix the CAP’s priorities and stop funneling money to a few large landowners and factory farms. Every one of us has a right to know that what we eat is isn’t cruel to animals, polluting our water, warming the planet or making us ill.””

 

https://www.greenpeace.org/eu-unit/issues/nature-food/1058/eu-farming-plan-could-spell-disaster-for-environment-greenpeace/

[Orac]

It’s incredible that a few people here are still trying to promote EU agricultural policy. It’s one of the least desirable aspects of the EU (and there are many to choose from).
 
Whether you consider EU agricultural policy from the viewpoint of economics, environmental stewardship, morality regarding developing nations, or morality regarding animal welfare, it is an abject failure.
 
Obviously the ideologues here are not interested or informed.
 
“Greenpeace EU agriculture policy director Marco Contiero said: “The Commission’s plans offer almost no protection for health, the environment and climate. The EU props up the agriculture industry with billions every year. The least people can expect is that these investments help achieve climate and environment goals, and deliver healthy, nutritious food. The European Parliament and our governments must fix the CAP’s priorities and stop funneling money to a few large landowners and factory farms. Every one of us has a right to know that what we eat is isn’t cruel to animals, polluting our water, warming the planet or making us ill.””
 
https://www.greenpeace.org/eu-unit/issues/nature-food/1058/eu-farming-plan-could-spell-disaster-for-environment-greenpeace/

Maybe you could point us to these people promoting EU agricultural policy on here as these ideologies should be outed.


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[My Thai Life]

6 minutes ago, Orac said:

Maybe you could point us to these people promoting EU agricultural policy on here as these ideologies should be outed.

Ideologues (as per my original post), not ideologies (as per your misquote or limited vocabulary). Well you're one, but a few others have put their head above the parapet today; assuming you actually read any posts here.

Edited October 17, 2018 by My Thai Life

[My Thai Life]

From the same Greenpeace article above:

 

“The CAP proposal fails to specifically address the environmental and health impacts of Europe’s intensive meat and dairy sector. Animal farming in Europe contributes 12-17 per cent of the EU’s greenhouse gas emissions. It is also a major source of water, soil and air pollution, in particular from nitrogen and phosphorus in water, and ammonia and fine particulate matter in the air. Nitrogen pollution alone costs the EU up to €320 billion every year.”

[nauseus]

12 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

 

Maybe you could point us to these people promoting EU agricultural policy on here as these ideologies should be outed.


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Try Grouse. He might be in!

[Orac]

11 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Ideologues, not ideologies. Well you're one, but a few others have put their head above the parapet today; assuming you actually read any posts here.

 

Not me - no fan at all.

 

My point is just on trade policy as that is where my experience is - others keep trying to distract away to EU Ag Policy.

 

I would gladly see CAP reformed - the Greenpeace article suggests one of their issues is some CAP funding being cut which might be a start but will leave others to debate this with you as it is not really my field.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Orac

[whatsupdoc]

18 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

It’s incredible that a few people here are still trying to promote EU agricultural policy. It’s one of the least desirable aspects of the EU (and there are many to choose from).

 

Whether you consider EU agricultural policy from the viewpoint of economics, environmental stewardship, morality regarding developing nations, or morality regarding animal welfare, it is an abject failure.

 

Obviously the ideologues here are not interested or informed.

 

“Greenpeace EU agriculture policy director Marco Contiero said: “The Commission’s plans offer almost no protection for health, the environment and climate. The EU props up the agriculture industry with billions every year. The least people can expect is that these investments help achieve climate and environment goals, and deliver healthy, nutritious food. The European Parliament and our governments must fix the CAP’s priorities and stop funneling money to a few large landowners and factory farms. Every one of us has a right to know that what we eat is isn’t cruel to animals, polluting our water, warming the planet or making us ill.””

 

https://www.greenpeace.org/eu-unit/issues/nature-food/1058/eu-farming-plan-could-spell-disaster-for-environment-greenpeace/

Since the Brent Spar I would no longer use Greenpeace as a source for reliable information....

[My Thai Life]

25 minutes ago, Orac said:

My point is just on trade policy as that is where my experience is - others keep trying to distract away to EU Ag Policy.

Two immediate thoughts on this.

 

1 The CAP is around 40% of the EU budget (but farming only around 2% of GDP). Something that consumes such a vast amount of the budget cannot be separated from agricultural trade policy, intra-EU or inter-national, regardless of where your personal experience lies.

 

2 If your experience is trade policy, how can you possibly put forward the non-truth that the UK has applied to the WTO to trade post-Brexit on EU 3rd country tariffs.

 

I'm inclined to ask you where your specific experience lies, and at what level, but as this is a general forum, it seems like an intrusive question. However, I am forced to conclude from your posts to date, that either you are not a trade specialist, or that your specialism is so narrow that it precludes discussion of the bigger picture.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by My Thai Life

[My Thai Life]

This is an interesting article...

 

Are EU leaders happy to pay the price of a no deal Brexit to protect their lofty ideals? 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/17/eu-leaders-happy-pay-price-no-deal-brexit-protect-lofty-ideals/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

 

[Orac]

19 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Two immediate thoughts on this.

 

1 The CAP is around 40% of the EU budget (but farming only around 2% of GDP). Something that consumes such a vast amount of the budget cannot be separated from agricultural trade policy, intra-EU or inter-national, regardless of where your personal experience lies.

 

2 If your experience is trade policy, how can you possibly put forward the non-truth that the UK has applied to the WTO to trade post-Brexit on EU 3rd country tariffs.

 

I'm inclined to ask you where your specific experience lies, and at what level, but as this is a general forum, it seems like an intrusive question. However, I am forced to conclude from your posts to date, that either you are not a trade specialist, or that your specialism is so narrow that it precludes discussion of the bigger picture.

 

 

 

As I said, CAP is not my thing and no love of it here - my point on Trade was arguing against the fallacy that prices will come down when we leave which makes the wrong assumption that high tariffs currently are applied.

 

My comment on our WTO schedule was jumping the gun a bit but is based on the fact that a schedule was submitted in July and it would be virtually impossible for it not to be the same as the EU schedule and the FCO link from last year stated this was the plan.

 

As for my experience, probably  not best to go into it  as it usually just ends up in dick measuring contest and ad-hominem attacks though I did outline it earlier i  the brexit debate.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Orac

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

"If you want the cheapest food then be prepared for cruelly reared and slaughtered meat"

 

Genuine question - has the eu banned battery farming?  A similar question applies re. the cruel practices when it comes to slaughter....  Is foie gras still produced within the eu, or allowed to enter it's borders?  

 

AFAIK, the eu has made virtually no difference in these areas.

Of course fois gras is an abomination. Is that your exemplar?

 

You think standards are no worse in Nigeria or Indonesia? That's rather naive don't you think?

 

How about breeding square cross section pigs in Thailand so that they fit the cages on the back of a pick up truck? (Anyone could tell them that hexagonal close packing would be better to minimize interstitial space)!

 

As far as intensive food production is concerned, this is a continual struggle between profitability, volume, quality, and humanity.

 

Battery regulations have been significantly tightened.

 

But, in your riposte, I note that you ignore chemicals, hormones, pesticides, preservatives, genetic modification and hygiene.

 

I for one feel safER in the EU

Edited October 17, 2018 by Grouse

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

That's the whole idea behind having control of our trade policy! That's why the UK voted out! 

Oh really? ????

[bristolboy]

Trump tells May to abandon 'unjustified' food standards for Brexit trade deal

Donald Trump announces his plan to negotiate a free trade deal with the UK after Brexit.

Talks can begin in 2021, once the Brexit transition period is over, a letter to US Congress states.

However, Trump's administration says the UK must abandon "unjustified" food standards before a wide-ranging deal between the two economies can be agreed.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-uk-must-bin-unjustified-food-standards-for-brexit-trade-deal-2018-10

[damascase]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Trump tells May to abandon 'unjustified' food standards for Brexit trade deal

Donald Trump announces his plan to negotiate a free trade deal with the UK after Brexit.

Talks can begin in 2021, once the Brexit transition period is over, a letter to US Congress states.

However, Trump's administration says the UK must abandon "unjustified" food standards before a wide-ranging deal between the two economies can be agreed.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-uk-must-bin-unjustified-food-standards-for-brexit-trade-deal-2018-10

Negotiations haven’t even started and the first red lines have already been drawn.........

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

"food laced with chemicals and hormones and be prepared for putting many of our own farmers out of business. I value the way that our farmers maintain the countryside; it improves the quality of life for millions."

 

You may well be right about "food laced with chemicals and hormones.

 

As far as I can make out, many of our small farmers have already been put out of business and taken over by 'big business' enterprises that have been able to obtain the maximum benefit out of CAP policies.... 

 

Talking of which, after digging up numerous hedgerows to increase the maximum yield - they were then paid to not produce anything as a result of CAP subsidies!  Again, as far as I can make out.  If this is your idea of our remaining farmers 'maintaining the countryside' - then I'm lost for words.

Good! ????, but unlikely.

 

My mother was from farming stock with a 500 acre mixed farm in Co Durham. I understand at least some of the various financial and regulatory pressures that resulted in unexpected consequences. Nevertheless, our farmers do a good job IMHO.

 

Opening up to unfettered competition would be a death knell and an inhumane one.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Grouse

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

"If you want shoemakers put out of business because they can not compete with slave Labour, I say cobblers"

 

This has already happened to a certain extent as workers from poor eu countries work for the minimum wage, or less.

 

"What we really need is improved productivity in all sectors by using technology. That should enable a shorter working week for many, AND higher income."

 

The 'experts' said this would be the case a few decades ago!  What actually happened was longer working hours (mostly unpaid for those in lower 'management' group, as they didn't dare complain....) - and static/lower incomes for everyone other than those at the very 'top'.....

I agree. Yes, that's right. I agree 

 

So lets not make in worse. It's not a race to the bottom.

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

"The US has confirmed it will be “well prepared” to start negotiations on a post-Brexit trade deal with Britain “as soon as” the UK has left the European Union.

 

Donald Trump, the US President, has formally notified Congress of his intention to initiate negotiations on a trade agreement in a major boost for Theresa May as she heads to Brussels for a crunch summit.

 

The confirmation that the US is preparing for trade talks with Britain to start immediately after the UK has left the EU on March 29, 2019, could embolden the Prime Minister and will be seen by Brexiteers as a new card for her to play as she seeks a deal with the bloc."

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/17/us-ready-negotiate-free-trade-deal-uk-soon-britain-quits-eu/

 

 

 

Ooh! Great!

 

I can hardly wait! ????

 

Such delusion. Of course they want a deal. To who's benefit???

[mommysboy]

Something going on behind the scenes for sure.  I think this because JC has been strangely muted lately: his performance in question time was restrained.

 

I predict a deal, a very flexible one that is satisfactory to Labour, and a General Election quickly thereafter.

[mommysboy]

If the EU is so bad then why is it Finland isn't complaining?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/17/life-expectancy-rising-finland-uk-scandinavia

 

One possible reason why Finland is doing well is that they don't have a completely useless government, or Brexit to deal with????

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Try Grouse. He might be in!

Sort off

 

I just feel that is better than the other options and improving

 

Im no fan of CAP but one needs to comprehend the history

 

Certainly no point in making it worse

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Trump tells May to abandon 'unjustified' food standards for Brexit trade deal

Donald Trump announces his plan to negotiate a free trade deal with the UK after Brexit.

Talks can begin in 2021, once the Brexit transition period is over, a letter to US Congress states.

However, Trump's administration says the UK must abandon "unjustified" food standards before a wide-ranging deal between the two economies can be agreed.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-uk-must-bin-unjustified-food-standards-for-brexit-trade-deal-2018-10

 Wait.. 'Talks can begin in 2021, once the Brexit transition period is over, a letter to US Congress states.'

 

I thought the talks can begin on March 2019. The transition period is time which let's UK to adapt to the new situation and start negotiating trade deals.

 

Well.. after seeing this mess of Brexit, i'm not very confident that UK's government is capable of negotiating and closing trade deals within next 40 years ????

 

 

[bristolboy]

4 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

"The US has confirmed it will be “well prepared” to start negotiations on a post-Brexit trade deal with Britain “as soon as” the UK has left the European Union.

 

Donald Trump, the US President, has formally notified Congress of his intention to initiate negotiations on a trade agreement in a major boost for Theresa May as she heads to Brussels for a crunch summit.

 

The confirmation that the US is preparing for trade talks with Britain to start immediately after the UK has left the EU on March 29, 2019, could embolden the Prime Minister and will be seen by Brexiteers as a new card for her to play as she seeks a deal with the bloc."

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/17/us-ready-negotiate-free-trade-deal-uk-soon-britain-quits-eu/

 

 

 

Because Trump won't consider taking advantage of the UK's relative weakness? It's not like he would demand the lowering of agricultural standards.

[mommysboy]

10 minutes ago, oilinki said:

 Wait.. 'Talks can begin in 2021, once the Brexit transition period is over, a letter to US Congress states.'

 

I thought the talks can begin on March 2019. The transition period is time which let's UK to adapt to the new situation and start negotiating trade deals.

 

Well.. after seeing this mess of Brexit, i'm not very confident that UK's government is capable of negotiating and closing trade deals within next 40 years ????

 

 

I think BongoBongo Land would probably wipe the floor with us.

 

But looking on the bright side we may have a better Government soon.

Edited October 17, 2018 by mommysboy

[Grouse]

45 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Trump tells May to abandon 'unjustified' food standards for Brexit trade deal

Donald Trump announces his plan to negotiate a free trade deal with the UK after Brexit.

Talks can begin in 2021, once the Brexit transition period is over, a letter to US Congress states.

However, Trump's administration says the UK must abandon "unjustified" food standards before a wide-ranging deal between the two economies can be agreed.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-uk-must-bin-unjustified-food-standards-for-brexit-trade-deal-2018-10

Do you think the Brexiters can compute that?

 

Frightening!